Discussion 2003 - 2004:
Date: 12/28/2003
Time: 6:20:05 PM
Why be afraid of revelation!!!! It says those who read this will be blessed... Don't you want to be blessed and your Congregations?
I think good title topic here is Challenges!
New Year Hope-struggles appropriate... Just as you may not be comfortable with this passage,God may call you to preach on it... Get out of your comfort zone and preach the word! CB in OHIO
Date: 4/27/2004
Time: 1:23:51 PM
I am thinking of approching this as "what God makes new in a Christian home here and now. Can we ask God's help so that we live remember God was our begining and he is our ending. God making a all things new including the sanctuaries of our hearts and our homes.. Love that abounds, God"s law of love first. Nancy-Wi
Date: 4/28/2004
Time: 11:10:13 AM
John's vision shows us that in the resurrection the new age has dawned; God dwells with us already. Yet we wait for the time when the tears that cloud our vision will be wiped away. The we will see the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem.
Date: 4/28/2004
Time: 11:16:54 AM
The book of Revelation tells us that it is the record of the visions of John concerning "what must soon take place" (1.1). The term for this kind of revelation is "apocalypse," meaning the unveiling of something hidden. These visions paint a picture of God's plan for the universe.
A central tenet of Judeo-Christian beliefs is that the universe was created by God for a purpose; therefore history has a meaning and purpose. According to this belief, history is not an endless cycle where events are destined to repeat themselves, but rather a path with a destination. As the Bible begins with creation in Genesis, so it ends with re-creation in Revelation. John shows us the goal and purpose of God's creation; a purpose never fully realized in the history of time and space, but not entirely beyond history, either.
The author of Revelation speaks of the new city Jerusalem "coming down" from heaven, the place of perfection. Jerusalem, the central and most important point in the world for Jews (and remember that at this early stage the church was predominantly Jewish in self-understanding), is portrayed as a character in a wedding ceremony. At the same time, the sea is "no more." For ancient Jews, the sea was a threatening place and in Revelation it was a place from which the beast had come (13.1). With it gone, there would no longer be any chaotic forces that resist God's sovereign love. There would be "a new heaven and a new earth," perfect, holy, and in union with God.
This new heaven and new earth are not meant to completely replace the old (for that would mean that history is ultimately discarded and unimportant to God). The vision is of renewal. Like the flower in the bulb, the oak in the acorn, the new has been present in the old all along.
Date: 5/2/2004
Time: 12:23:43 PM
I will be preaching this coming Sunday. I have been wrestling with the following dilemma. As soon as I read this Lection, I recalled singing the song below at 8:30a.m in November 1998(I think I mentioned this in an earlier posting.) Around this time, my mother died at home. I'm trying to appropriately use this next Sunday.
In the land of fadeless day Lies the "city four-square," It shall never pass away, And there is "no night there."
Refrain God shall "wipe away all tears;" There's no death, no pain, nor fears; And they count not time by years, For there is "no night there."
All the gates of pearl are made, In the "city four-square," All the streets with gold are laid, And there is "no night there."
Refrain
And the gates shall never close To the "city foursquare," There life's crystal river flows, And there is "no night there."
Refrain
There they need no sunshine bright, In that "city foursquare," For the Lamb is all the light, And there is "no night there."
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 5/2/2004
Time: 4:29:30 PM
Galatians 4:21ff would be a good text to weave into this.
Luther in IA
Date: 5/2/2004
Time: 5:36:43 PM
Luther in IA
Could you explain your reference to Galatians 4:21ff?
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 5/2/2004
Time: 6:22:24 PM
Bammamma,
In Galatians 4:21ff, Paul allegorically compares Hagar to Mt. Sinai (children of law/slaves) with Sarah to the Jerusalem above (children of promise/free). Usually exegeting texts allegorically is a no-no, but Paul gets away with it because...well, he is Paul.
We are already citizens of this new "Jerusalem above," which Paul speaks of, by faith in Christ. (The true children of Abraham).
And in Revelation 21, John describes the vision of the Jerusalem above as a bride adorned for her husband. This beautiful, heavenly, "New Jerusalem above" is truly where our citizenship is, even now while we are on earth. Our reservations have been made...the inaugurated eschatology of "even now, not yet." Reservations made by name in baptism, etc.
Just some early thoughts...tough (and exegetically dangerous) to make a dead-on comparison with an allegory. (Notice that I switched between the New Jerusalem being The Church and the New Jerusalem being the actual, physical heavenly city - a completely new city (not remodeled) according to the Greek word for "new" used in this text.
Perhaps you can weave this better than I. Doing it just now has challenged me enough that I don't think I'm going to do it. Thanks for pushing me into the text ... and on Sunday already!
Luther in IA
Date: 5/3/2004
Time: 10:02:07 AM
See I am making things all new... Life is about many new begings... that come after appropriate tears often... I think of the time my children left home... the time my mother-in-law died... maybe the key to this passage is in the word trust... to often I know I want to micro manage. Christ dwells with in each of us as the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit has the power to make us new. Sorry more ramblings than put together thoughts. Nancy-Wi
Date: 5/3/2004
Time: 10:54:08 AM
Nancy Your thoughts are helpful. I'm looking at the passing on that parenthood does. From human birth, to human death, there is life. The writer of Revelation saw a New heaven and a New earth. "All things are new." My mother wanted to remain on earth to "raise" her daughter. 59 years later, she laid down and died. She was going where the Lamb provides the light. (undescribable) by humans. When her mother died, when she was nine, she asked the question, "who will take care of me." God gave her the hymn "God will take care of you." She got the opportunity to share with me her daughter that message.
I want this however a message for not only persons my age, but children and youth and young adults, so I don't want it to be a message of sadness.
Thanks Luther and Nancy for your thoughts,
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 5/3/2004
Time: 10:55:13 AM
rather than "that" it should have been "what parenthood does."
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 5/3/2004
Time: 12:18:46 PM
In checking TDNT (volume VI?) on the Greek word for city (polis), they do a good job of compare/contrast Galatians 4 and Rev. 21.
Also, my earlier post of switching the "New Jerusalem" between "The Church" and a "physical city" were premature. The Church IS the bride of Christ which IS the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:2 and 21:9 (Eph. 5, et. al.)
It looks like I fell into the "Western mindset" of reading Revelation literally here... I momentarily forgot the metaphorical and symbolic picutures that the apocalyptic imagery of Revelation presents.
Imagine how you could go absolutely crazy from the pulpit with this text trying to explain a new world with "no more death"! It is inconceivable to the finite mind. Our world is full of death (even the 4 seasons involve death). It is foreign to our conception of realty. Can't wait to for it to arrive...it will be a real killer! (bad pun)
Luther in IA
Date: 5/3/2004
Time: 7:07:45 PM
CB in Ohio: This chicken preacher confesses, "Bock bock bock bock bock." The one time I preached on this, someone scolded me at length for talking about heaven coming down to earth. She had been so looking forward to "flying up" to heaven and having "angel wings" and was disappointed in the idea that heaven would come down to earth. I didn't know what to say. Lamely I tried to point out that since all things would be made new, maybe the laws of gravity would no longer apply in the same way and maybe she would be flying. She wasn't buying it.
Actually I love this text. I would love to paint it or have someone do an incredible calligraphy of it for my office. This is where I pin all my hope and image of a new creation. This is my source for social justice and joy. It's so beautiful in itself, I find it hard to develop a sermon out of it.
I look forward to everyone's posts. Thanks.
LF
Date: 5/3/2004
Time: 10:12:39 PM
LF I agree about the beauty of this text, and the mental images that occur behind one's eyelids at the thought of it. I also find it hard to think of preaching on it, because i have mostly used it as a text for funerals and dealing with grief. As i try to preach on it all i can see are the tears of the families of each of the departed. How wonderful when there will be no more tears or mourning or crying or pain.
Puk (LCA pastor -Australia)
Date: 5/4/2004
Time: 7:00:23 AM
It's still a little early for me to write a sermon on this lesson, but there are two things that strike me. First is in verse 3 "See, the home of God is amnong mortals. He will dwell with them as their God; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them." It seems to me this is the good news of a real presence of God with his people. The second part of the text that touches me is the New Jerusalem coming down. If God's place is with Mortals or his people, then it only follows that it would be God coming creating the new Jerusalem instead of us "flying up". It seems like a minor point, but the very act of God coming down is a biblical theme that John carries through in this vision. Well, these are random thoughts for the moment. Lynn in Blair
Date: 5/4/2004
Time: 7:21:37 AM
John Calvin believed that God “condescends” to us in both Christ and in the sacraments, not in the negative sense as we now use it, but that is the act of a gracious God to come down and to be with his people. Imagine that you are A Christian being persecuted for your faith by the powerful Roman Empire, and that the persecution is so bad that some people are saying that the current emperor is Nero (who started the first great persecution) reborn. Imagine hearing these words read in your small assembly, with the hope that things are not always as they seem, that something new is happening, and that God is with his people. The images (metaphors?) are ones of great joy and remind us that the final victory is already ours in Christ- that in both the beginning and the end, He will be all in all- so hang in there- you are not alone (from the Scots Confession- “What is my chief comfort in life? That I belong body and soul to Christ Jesus)
revgilmer in Texarkana (among the un-chickens! hope it doesn’t also turn out to be the un-wise!)
Date: 5/4/2004
Time: 8:31:40 AM
I really hate being called "chicken" just because I hesitate to preach on Revelation. I hesitate because I'm not confident in its interpretation, and because too many people have preconceived ideas of what's going to happen - and you'd better believe just like they do or you'll go to hell, and furthermore, you're not worthy to be their pastor.
And, incidentally, thanks to the discussions last week, I DID preach on Revelation as a 2ndary text (I'd alighted on the Acts) - and even read it during worship.
Am I chicken of Revelation? No, I'm chicken of the line=in-the-sand conflict by many of our congregants, and especially by you at the beginning of this page of discussion!!!!
Your post has some merit, but I really resent starting a discussion with a laying down of the gauntlet that accuses any who would read it of being chicken - thereby seeming to challenge any of us to be on the defense.
I don't usually even respond to that sort of thing ... (which usually has the effect of "proving" the other's point in their own mind), but I simply hope that this can be a forum where we discuss openly. Maybe it's the sort-of anonymity of the internet that has prompted me to respond.
In any case, thanks for letting me have my say.
Sally in GA
Date: 5/4/2004
Time: 10:02:54 AM
After reading Marcus Borg's "Reading The Bible Again For the First Time," I have to appreciate Revelation. I think I will be preaching on God dwelling in the city or in The Messsage's words "God coming to the neighborhood." Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within us and that we could do as great of things as him. But we hold back and do not live as though the kingdom is within us. Our western society is so far from the vision of Revelation and the dream of Jesus that I think many of us find it daunting. But we don't have to build the kingdom in a day or by ourselves. We are called to love one another as Jesus loves us and to include even those we would rather not. The scriptures tie together so well this week. I am looking forward to other postings ontihs passage. Thkans all. LGB
Date: 5/4/2004
Time: 2:09:48 PM
I've been thinking about the word "bride." The Bride (in current culture) is not the heavenly city joyously anticipating Christ; it is Uma Thurman in a yellow track suit, with a sword. Quentin Tarantino appears to have a vision opposite of that of John: The Bride is all about hacking off limbs, blood and vengeance.
The parallel of this with Isaiah 65:17 is worth noting. Walter Brueggemann in "Isaiah 40-66" observes, "There is a steady push toward newness in the Isaiah tradition that intends to override the despair of Israel. The newness to be wrought by the inscrutable power and irresistible resolve of Yahweh is as large as heaven and earth. The old heavens are overrun with controversy. The old earth is burned out with violence. The new cosmic realm will be perfectly governed by Yahweh, and the cosmos will be perfectly responsive to that governance... This new infrastructure of the city will be marked by peace, justice, righteousness, and faithfulness."
Brueggemann also comments on the close of the book's strange tension between inclusivity and exclusivity. (We can see this in the Revelation text too, for those of you who go on to read about "the lake of fire" and condemnation.) I have to quote him at length:
"Interpreters observet that these final verses of the book of Isaiah exhibit a profound tension between magnanimous inclusiveness and intensely felt exclusiveness. It is evident, moreover, that there have been continuous, disputatious editing and additions to the book, as though each of the contending parties of inclusiveness and exclusiveness was determined to have one more say, and even to have the last say. "Clearly, the disputatious editing is not finished. It was not finished in ancient Judaism... The issue is not finished in the contemporary life of the church, for the struggles concerning inclusion and exclusion continue. It is not clear who will have the last word in the church, or indeed if there will ever be a 'last word.'"
Some things to chew on...
LF
Date: 5/4/2004
Time: 3:51:52 PM
Can anyone tell me why the name Babylon is used to refer to Rome in Revelation? Is it in some way a reference or connection to the exile in Babylon? Thank you. LGB
Date: 5/4/2004
Time: 7:55:48 PM
I see a wonderful tie in between the readings in Acts and Revelation and not just because we're dealing with visions. In the reading from Acts, Peter is confronted by a Lord that was "making all things new." As several of you have posted, Peter's first response was that "we've never done it this way before" and God's reply was, "Get used to it." In a way, God wipes out the old (the old prejudices, the old fears, the old limitations) and creates a new world for any that will be part of it, Jew or Gentile. Now the dwelling of God is with ALL people, not just a select few in Jerusalem, and He reaches out to them and sends the believers to tell them that He wants to be their God and wants them to be His people. I think that might even preach. So do you think anyone will complain that "we've never done this before" as God re-creates Heaven and Earth? Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 5/5/2004
Time: 7:43:52 AM
I'd like to make a comment about the inclusivity vs. exclusivity issue. In the last chapters of Revelation, the gates to the city are never shut (21:25). Still, that does not mean that everyone enters those gates. Revelation makes it clear that some stay outside, by their own choice. To quote last week's lesson, those who stand before the throne are those who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. In other words, those who have admitted their sinfulness and their need for forgiveness through the death of Jesus. Revelation preaches justification by faith, not universalism. Those who do not wish to repent of their sins, or deny their sinfulness and their need for a Savior, stay outside the new Jerusalem. The gates are open, the water of life is offered without price (22:17), but not everybody takes up the offer. It is true that people from every race, nation, language and ethnic group inhabit the new Jerusalem. As Peter learned in our 1st Lesson, the gospel is not limited by these things. Jesus died for all. But not everyone believes. -- Mike in Maryland
Date: 5/5/2004
Time: 8:07:15 AM
I find I'm looking forward to delving in to Revelation with the Standard Publishing Sunday School Lessons through the end of this quarter. Perhaps that's because I'll teach what the lessons has included, instead of what I would have to pretend I know, or pretend I believe! lkinhc
Date: 5/5/2004
Time: 8:15:12 AM
I found my own answer to the question about Babylon and Rome. The connection is that Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and later Rome did too and therefore Babylon was then used as a code name for Rome by some Jewish and early Christian groups. Just in case anyone else was wondering. LGB
Date: 5/6/2004
Time: 12:52:01 PM
LGB,
Not all takes on Revelation (Amillenialism, for example) make Rome=Babylon.
Luther in IA
Date: 5/7/2004
Time: 7:57:16 AM
Mike:
That sounds like the Swedenborgian theology of salvation, something I just recently learned through one of their pamphlets. It's hard to imagine, though, anyone facing the opportunity to be with God choosing NOT to go into the New Jerusalem. I've long maintained that this scripture says that regardless, we'll all get a last-ditch chance to believe. That we're not, based on our deeds or misdeeds or correctly-formulated confession of faith condemned to Hell for all eternity when our very view of eternality is a New Jerusalem.
It's THIS that is difficult to preach - especially to those whose minds are simply wrapped around the idea of Christianity's main purpose being for getting themselves into Heaven when they die.
It's THIS that reconciles in my mind John 3:17 (God did not send the son into the world to condemn it, but to save it) with - not really universal salvation - but universal opportunity for salvation. It can happen, says Revelation, in the afterlife. That's what we forget.
Would one holding honest doubts, or one who'd spent their lives devoted to a religion other than Christianity be standing outside the doors looking in and NOT say "Oh, I guess I was mistaken!"
The thing is, we can't be certain that WE'RE not going to be standing outside the doors looking in and saying "Oh, I guess I was mistaken!"
OK - it's out there, my radical beliefs. I simply CANNOT reconcile a justifying, loving, non-condemning God with one who says "unless you confess Christianity this certain way, you'll be tortured in hell for the rest of your life." And heaven forbid that you never hear the Gospel or the Gospel is not the dominant religion in your socitety because you're gonna burn, sucker! It seems we speak with forked tongues.
Sally
Date: 5/7/2004
Time: 3:29:38 PM
Sally There is nothing radical about your beliefs. Christian range from the far right to the far right, and we are all someplace along the continuum. Although I am not at the same place you are, because of a different journey, I support your faith along with those who are going to say, both of us are going to hell. That is their journey. But it is exactly because of your beliefs that I feel you should continue to exegete and preach Revelations. There are those in your congregation, and those who will be coming who need a pastor like you to share your faith and call. John Westerhoff said as Christians we don't do "doubting faith" very well. We rush to make people move to "owned faith" probably before they are ready. Many of them just don't bother to come in our doors. God bless you on this Mother's day
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 5/7/2004
Time: 3:30:39 PM
Sally
That should have been the Far left to the far right"
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 5/8/2004
Time: 9:13:23 AM
Bammamma:
Thank you for your post - and the Westerhoff quote - and for the Mother's Day wishes -- same back attcha!
Sally
Date: 5/8/2004
Time: 3:01:09 PM
Back in January, many of us celebrated Epiphany, which I like to refer to as "Light Bulb Sunday." It is a celebration of the times that God reveals himself but the "epiphany" isn't complete until we recognize it, until the light bulb comes on. Through the message from Acts, I can see that, with God, revelation is a constant process because He is constantly revealing His nature to us. John's words were more that just a vision of the future because they supposed to have meaning for his day and our days and the days which are to come. We preach that God dwelt among us as Jesus and indwells us as the Holy Spirit, that He is with us always no matter what the world throws at us. The Church in persecution in John's day deperately needed to see that. The Church in persecution in our day (and it is still there) survives by that revelation of God. The soft lazy Church living the good life needs to have the light bulb come on because the God that we claim as our God and that we claim dwells among us is not a God of inactivity but a God of "Believer, get up and go," daring us to proclaim anything that He created as being unworthy of our efforts (unclean). Christ still makes all things new. That's the glory of salvation. If we refuse to see the new for the old, that's our problem, not God's. The Revelation is still there, with words that are "trustworthy and true." The light bulb is just waiting to come on. Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 5/9/2004
Time: 12:21:53 AM
At the risk of being called steroetypical sexist, I plan to use revelation and take to the HGTV/ Discovery Channel themes - Trading Spaces, While You Were Out, In a Fix, Clean Sweep, Mission Organization... We are in a fix, and need a little help wiith our mission; organization is the key, we need to make a clean sweep of our earthly ties that keep us from God,soon so we can enjoy trading spaces, lest it happen while you were out :o)
Date: 5/15/2004
Time: 7:18:14 PM
Has anyone ever heard/read that story about how "the church" as a bureaucracy ended up blocking people from the river of life? It went something like this: that there was a holy river where people worshiped God,and over time people took responsibility to care for it, protect it and preserve it, until ultimately a building (church?) is built around it, and the river itself gets covered up, and the gurgling sound blocked out, so that people are blocked from the true source. SOund familiar? I would LOVE to find that story before tomorrow, if anyone knows it!
a very desperate preacher in Manitoba, Canada!
Date: 9/6/2004
Time: 9:38:47 PM
In the new world that will come to pass it says that God shall rain supreme over the Universe and that all the enemies of God will burn in the "Lake of Fire".
I relates to the creationn of the GArden of Eden agai. It also one that finds his name in the Book of Life will be saved, so does that mean that If the sin is of great cost to the world he will banish you to the Lake of FIre to suffer for etirnity, but Jesus states that the admintance of the sin and the turning back to God's way will save you. Then the bible goes one to contradict itself by stating that if you should not find your name in the Book of Life then there is no chance for you to be saved.
THe question here is, "Is turning back to God the way to save yourself or is it a way for you to instill within yourself false hope and the false joy that the non sinning have?"
At the time of the coming is it the time to turn back to Jesus and to repent for the sins in which you have commited. Or is it the time where the judgement of your soul has come to pass and you shall be taken from the shell in which incorparates your soul. It was told to me a long time ago taht there was great heros of the time of Jesus and before people that follow the way of God and the truth and these were the people that protected God's Kingdom and the ones to up hold the Justice on earth.
Techo 5bennema@gmail.com
These poeple i can tell you do exist in the relm of the living as they do not remember the past life of themselves but at time they see what they once were and to the happiness they shared with loved ones. You see they always look the same as before and when the time comes there lost loves one reunite with them in some way that is how they live. In storys they do not have in the bible lost to the world there are additions to the Revelation which state In the end St Micheals Angels living or dead will rejoin their comrades and combat the damned (The fallen Arc Angels)
Previous Discussion (1998 - 2000):
The curmudgeons constantly complain about the present state of political affairs. They constantly accuse those in power because (simply put) they don't have any. But we don't have any either, not that kind. Our power as Christians lies largely in our understanding that the world is shifting toward not power, but beauty -- not judgement, but mercy, -- not doubt, but hope. Our vision of the world that our children will inherit is significantly more beautiful than the one we are leaving behind. Either that or woe to them -- they will inherit nothing. If all they had to look forward to was a day of reckoning in which all their sin is laid bare -- a day which condemns them -- they would spiral downward with the curmudgeons into the conviction that what we have stinks and that it always will stink -- because that's the only compensation for condemnation.
But we have been promised something great -- not that we should relegate it to some netherworld or other world which we can only know in abstraction. No. It must be real. It is either real or we have been told one whopper of a lie. I'll put my hope in the reality, not the idea alone. It will come to pass. And there is no reason why I (or anyone who is so moved) cannot participate in this unfolding of the City of God. It is greater than theology, and greater than miracles. It is true greatness beyond even the hope and the promise of salvation (if that is even possible). It is not just knowing God but posessing God -- having God as the sole Captain of our ship -- and not captain only of the church but of our government as well.
Dan Servatius -- elf@pclink.com -- www.pclink.com/elf
I often use this passage at funerals for people who had troubled lives; e.g., Alzheimer sufferers. I point out that the sea in Scripture is often used to represent chaos, something uncontrolled and unsettling. The promise in this lection is that "the sea was no more."
of further comfort is the promise in v.3--God makes a home among mortals. It isn't that God lives one place and we live somewhere totally different. God makes a home among us--God will live with us and comfort us. We don't have to wait to die to realize this promise. Sue
I think it was Lyn Bauman who suggested that the 'sea' is what seperates us from God. Now those with faith don't see the sea but rather a marble floor before the throne, hence no seperation from God. This mystical allusion may also be present in the gospel stories of walking on the water. David (from the land of the Ogopogo - a creature from the chaos that lives in British Columbia)
I am trying to speak about motherhood. It is generally true that it is the Mother that makes a home. When the father dies home is still there, but when mother dies so to the since of home. God is going to make a Home among us. Sue do you think you can help me here. We often talk about God as Father, I would like to talk about God as mother, without getting into trouble. Any help would recieved very greatfully. Ron in MS
Am going to use this with Reba Macintyre's new video, "What If?" Can the city of God be now if we just learn to live together? Blessings, Ann in Louisiana
Ron in MS, it seems that the lectionary this week doesn't really lend itself to preaching about motherhood. Hey, it's okay to break from the pattern of using the lectionary. Find another passage and let it fly! -John near Pitts.
Ron, the John passage is a love one another passage. Lots of room for motherhood there...but beware of the potholes os sentimentality. Just please don't sing some concocted "Faith of our Mothers" (wretch)... Ann
Ron, in response to your query. First, I don't know if I can suggest a good way to use this lection in a sermon on motherhood (Mother's Day is a secular holiday, I tell myself, not a Christian one, anyway). Second (and more generally), let me relate two stories I have heard about preachers trying to talk about God as mother. The first just slipped in the reference in a prayer. One man walked out of church. Others expressed anger with the preacher later. Another preached a whole sermon about the images we have of God--father, mother, rock, etc. He spent a lot of time in the sermon explaining why mother was a useful metaphor--It was a teaching sermon. Afterwards, several people said to him, "I don't agree, but you made me think," or "I never understand that God as mother stuff before; I still don't like it, but at least I can where they're coming from," or similar comments.
In summary, think about why you want to raise a sensitive issue in your congregation. How will they see God better? How will they see their responsibility as children of God better? Don't be defensive. Don't be oblique. And if you are in doubt about your method or your goal, wait a while for the Spirit to keep working on you (and them) until you see the way to accomplish what you understand to be your call to accomplish.
Forgive me for being preachy--it goes with our job, doesn't it?
I have just looked up some OT references to God's promise to dwell with mortals (Lev 26:12; Ps 95:7; Jere 31:1,33) and conclude that they all refer to God's building a community.
Mother's Day deals with a relationship between individuals--love and care for a specific person.
to use this lection for mother's day, we need to expand our notion of "my mother that loves me," to something broader like "the characteristics of motherness (i made up that word) that keep our community healthier or something like that." Sue
This, with John, are two sides of what we offer our children - this Sunday is infant baptism in our church. One is the dream - the vision, this one. The other is the practical, the day by day show who we are by the love we give - as in considering, listening for the needs, especially of the children. This is what our coveant with the child, the parents, and the Church, and God is about. I think
Don, Toronto
Some good thoughts about preaching God as mother. I had asked for help in the Acts section and then came here. Ask and you shall receive. I also was going to preach God as mother, although I haven't fully commited to it yet. Let me give you some of my thoughts and tell me what you think. I think the concept relates well with both the Acts passage and the Revelation passage. In both passages God has made things new. In the same way we need to explore new ideas and concepts. Why should the concept of God as Mother be any less valid than the concept of God as Father. Both, in reality, are inadequate to express and describe who God is. But, both are ways in which we can make the indescribable describable. If this makes a congregation uneasy then so be it. It is time we let loose those prejudices that keep us from truly knowing God for who God is. Mark @ Calvary in Dayton
One more thought. True, Mother's Day is a civil or secular "holiday", but it is a day recognized by many siiting in your pews. Hasn't it been the history of the Christian Church to take civil days and transform them into religious holidays? e.g. Christmas, All Saints Day. "See, I am making all things new." I think it is very appropriate to take a Hallmark Day and make it our own. Enough people have taken Christmas and made it their own. Works for me. Mark @ Calvary in Dayton
There are feminine references about God in the Bible, to wit, that God is in some ways like a mother. But nowhere is God called a mother. I think you're on shaky ground with it. Another line - I hope some of us will have the courage to debunk some of the popular pagan theology rampant all around us. We don't go to heaven when we die. We die, we rest, we are resurrected to become citizens of the new world that God will create, and God will dwell with us. Here's a good opportunity for some solid doctrinal preaching.
This Sunday is the Festival of the Christian Home (United Methodists anyway). Verse 3 would be an appropriate jumping off point...the home of God is among mortals. The word used in Greek is very akin to the Hebrew word "shekinah" which is also translated glory. The glory of God is among mortals. God's glory makes its home with us. Rather this passage is more like we're moving in with God. Parents of young adults - are you waiting for your children to move out...seems like in the end, we're all going to move back in to our Heavenly Parent's home.
As much as we'd like to celebrate and focus on making our homes more Christlike, we're still waiting for the consumation of something wonderful! To be in the house not made with hands eternal in the heavens...This is the new thing that God is doing...a new heaven and a new earth...a new home. -John near Pitts.
When I became a mother four years ago on Mother's Day (!) God made all things new in my life! I can't count the changes in me and my life. Some of it has been tough sledding, but it's been an amazing spiritual journey into Love in a different way than I've been before. With the newness has come new responsibility, new joy, new importance in taking care of my health, new understandings , new insights.
At our seniors bible study today we talked about the bad things that happen in life, what is the will of God, is the Christian Community part of making all things new and how?, and the women drew on their experience of motherhood for a sense of what the will of God is humanity - reflecting on their desires for their children.
If Mother's day, as I understand it, was drawn from a sense of the need for peace (Julia Ward Howe, Anna Jarvis) and the cost of war for women, and from the work women did to care for each other in war years, maybe we can save it from the Hallmark sap, and stir up the work for peace - all things new - instead of perfume, roses and chocolate and all new things. Just Musing in Ontario
Thank all of you for your help this week. Due to family issues I have spent the week with my parents and brother. It was great to come back and find so many comments. Gen.1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and felmale he created them" has been on my heart. It is within maleness and femaleness that the image of God is given. I don't think that any of us see God as a physcial male being. As fatherhood tells us something about God, so does motherhood. These might be 1)giver of all 2. nurturing God (wiping away tears) But it may be in the Holy Spirit that the gift of motherhood reflects the nature of God, The Paraclete, the helper, The Holy Comforter, the intercessor, the counsolor. I think that these are the charateristics of what Jesus is asking for in the John reading. The Holy Spirit is the only non masculine word we have for God. If we are filled with this Spirit are we not called to carry out a kind of mothering to each other. Last charaterist. God will make His home among men. One of the clearest charaterist of motherhood is that of home maker. It is turly when we see God through the images of father and mother we can begin to get some idea of the family of God that Jesus our brother has made us part of. One last though, heard of NPR we only have one mother but we have all had a lot of momas, all those women who have given us mothering in our lives. Thnking out loud, Ron in MS
One last thought, It is only the sin against the Holy Spirt that Jesus and the Father will not forgive, May be to God it is like saying "Yo mama". The above moma should have beem mama Ron in Ms
I know this is w-a-a-a-a-a-y late in the game, but when we think of a Mother-God relationship, why not use the passage wherein X calls to Jerusalem and says he'd gather them like a mother hen if he could... Does that relate to the gathering before the throne in the lectionary?
JHWBP@aol.com
I think the correct terminology is not GOD will dwell among us but GOD dwells in us. Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament Words speaks fo the soul asmind, will and emotions. The prophets tell us that words are life. GOD breathed into the man(GOD the giver-male)(man the reciever-female)his, words, his thoughts, his visions,his image, etc.,and this man's soul(house)(female tense), mind, will, and emotions' became alive, because of GOD's breath (spirit)(words) (male tense). His spirit left when adam sinned. When we accept Jesus he comes to dwell in our heart. heart in Hebrew translate into mind. This house was as a sanctuary for GOD and his man. Palsm 74:1-3 blessings ron in dallas
Date: 30 Oct 2000
Time: 22:25:30
In Revelation, the writer, John, is making sense of God's activity in the world during his own time by borrowing heavily from his own Scripture -- in this pericope, Isaiah. His forebears in the faith give clues to the hope he can convey to the churches on the mainland. The part about Alpha and Omega causes me to ask, what is history aside from God? Could this be a good place to start for All Saints observance? MTSOfan
Date: 31 Oct 2000
Time: 01:32:23
I use this reading frequently at funerals because I love the image of God wiping away our tears when we come to him. It reminds me of a mother hugging her child after a vaccination or other ordeal - "there now, it's all over, let's look to the goodness of the present and the future" Bonnie
Date: 07 May 2001
Time: 11:58:07
Thanks Bonnie. I agree. The reason I choose this was that I always preach this at funerals. But I have the tale of two churches. The only people that tend to hear this wonderful passage is the older people. I want everyone to hear it. Our chuurch is recovering from the big conflict a year ago and the whole church needs to hear this together. Also after going through the "tribulation" I think I can say something about the new Jeruselem now. This new Jeruselem is a religious event. I know its Mother's Day but I just gotta preach this. The best connection for me is that this new Jeruselem is where Mom would want her children to live.
Ran in DFW
Date: 07 May 2001
Time: 13:59:44
Ran in DFW, I am going to preach this for mother's day as well. Here's a thought, home, in the best sense, is where the husband is Christ, the bride is the church, and all the children belong to God. (I borrowed that outline from a lectionary preaching resource). In that way we don't force ourselves, and our mother's, into a perfection mode that is unrealistic. June Cleaver never has existed. Instead we look to Christ for instruction and discipline, to our own churches for assistance in raising our children (sounds like baptismal liturgy) and we offer our children up to God recognizing that ultimately it is Him to whom they belong. Give me some feedback, y'all. I need a bit more help in crafting this one. David in St. Louis
Date: 07 May 2001
Time: 17:39:49
Thanks for your insights into bringing this text into focus with the observation of Mother's day. I have a one word sermon title, "Fulfilled." Biblical theology does seem to point to a time when history culminates in a state where all that God has planned is fulfilled. Wheither you choose to interpret this passage literally or allegorically, this text gives some powerful imagery concerning that fulfillment. I can't help but think some women who have arrived at a sense of fulfillment as mother figures. They never marry but devote themselves to mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews. Does that not symbolize the mystical union of the church and Christ? What stories do you have to share to compliment this passage? TN Mack
Date: 08 May 2001
Time: 13:07:21
David in St. Louis -
I, too, am having difficulty crafting this one (of course, I had difficulty last week, too, so maybe it's just me)! I like your imagery of the "ultimate home," and I agree - and since I'll be baptizing a baby this week, it fits right in with the larger picture. My reservations come from the knowledge that there is a danger that I'll be perceived as saying something I don't believe - this is an area that has MANY fundamentalists in it who espouse (good pun, eh?) a rigid view of what constitutes a Christian family.
I'm having difficulty keeping this from being too intellectual and keeping it REAL without giving the impression that I'm saying that the Christian home only has a husband who is the head of his submissive wife and all the kids are happy and well-behaved.
Gee, that last sentenced reminded me of Garrison Keillor's "Prairie Home Companion" that I can't remember exactly ... and ends with " and where all the children are above average." Of course, my country folks aren't going to know Garrison Keillor, but I could still quote him, couldn't I?
sorry to ramble so.... trying to think and speak at the same time.
revo
Date: 08 May 2001
Time: 13:15:19
By the way,
does anyone have any suggestions on how to give a good sermon example to a group that doesn't appear to DO anything? One of my churches is historically a "tough room," but I see it as my job to try to help them relate to the Bible. They don't see movies (and resent movie examples), they don't listen to the radio (and resent those examples), they don't watch TV (so that, too, is out). I gave an example of farm life and they don't know farm life; I've given music examples and they think I'm talking to myself (I'm a musician). I've given art examples, and they just stare at me.
Is it me? How can you bring Scriptures to life for people who refuse to live?
revo
Date: 08 May 2001
Time: 14:38:50
Revo, Maybe the response to both your posts is to keep it spiritual. I tend to be very "down to earth" because there is so much I can relate to in my congregation. But this time there is the danger of holding up an idealized family, when what I want to do is to hold up the idealized family life. It sounds like your "fundamentalist do-nothings" (my paraphrase of your definition, apologies to all offended parties) need to remain in the spiritual world on this text. I think that is appropriate. This is not a parable about sheep and fishing, this is a dream sequence, so leave it there. Allow your people to remain in their heads on this one. Lift up the idealized spirit of family life without giving them the satisifaction of hearing you say what you don't believe (I assume you don't believe that the only 'family' is the mom/dad/2.5children/dog model.) I have to go that way as well since I have a wide mix of single families, families without children (some by choice, some not) and others. Good luck and God bless. David
Date: 08 May 2001
Time: 15:29:50
Hi all.
revo asked about "Lake Wobegone, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."
(A Lutheran BETTER know this, right??)
On another note... I have always cherished the promise in this passage, "I am making all things new." I suggest that this promise applies just as much to today as it does to the end of time. It applies to our definition of "family," to our understanding of "church," to our experience of "faith," and literally everything else.
I also suggest that our "job" is not to bring about the change or dictate to others what the "newness" is "supposed to" look like, but to be witnesses of what God in Christ is doing among us, in making this promise happen today, in pointing us to the final fulfillment which this passage is also about.
Quite a challenge in this self-centred, self-starting society.
Rick in Canada, eh?
Date: 09 May 2001
Time: 00:43:39
I see Revelation as a vision of God's victory - with Christ central - on a cosmic, grand, eternal scale. The vision of the new Jerusalem, with no need of a temple because God and the Holy One (Christ) are all the temple and light and source of life needed - is a wonderful image of inclusive, universal salvation - everyone is welcome. It is also fulled with surprises as God creates new things. I think I may explore the new things theme for sermon. Does it seem that when tribulation happens (as with John's readers) God is able to bring about order, new wonders, salvation - much as God did at creation in Genesis 1. Jim in ct.
Date: 09 May 2001
Time: 00:53:41
revo - a thought on examples - use the news and common experiences - the hospital, financial worries, people overcoming differences or difficulties..... A few weeks ago on Dateline the skipper of that U.S. sub that sank a Jpanese fishing boat and killed 9 was interviewed - very powerful example of one accepting his guilt and responsibility and all consequences, yet he said he is "right with God" meaning he is honest and trusting God's mercy. Yet he does not expect those 9 families to be able to forgive him - and he plans to go apologize to them in person. He must find what new thing God can do in his life now that his navy career is over. Anyway, just a kind of example from the news. This week we can look forward (sadly, to me) to an execution - and a media circus around Tim McViegh. There must be an example there somewhere. Will his death bring final closure and satisfaction to the victims' families? Experienced guards and prison officials tell us probably not. Just rambling on... Jim in ct.
Date: 09 May 2001
Time: 13:22:27
Everyone:
Thanks for the encouragement & support. I appreciate it. I think I'm going to go with the theme of "the ultimate family," and somehow (not sure how, yet) draw a comparison between the ultimate family and the idealized family. I'm going to go ahead and quote Garrison Keillor (thanks to the Lutheran who reminded me of the quote - I only get to hear the Writer's Almanac because of the time of day it runs).
As to the examples - not quite sure how to address the McVeigh thing - my folks will want to fry the daylights out of him, with the exception of one or two. But, there is a local independent congregation that's been in the news - DCFS has taken something like 30-plus children from the congregation because of evidence of their being abused at the direction (and often at the hand) of their pastor. It's a very uncomfortable church vs. state thing - as picture reminiscent of Elian Gonzales flood the local newscasts.
Another congregation hit the news last week, with the newscast's title "Religion or Cult?" It's a church that also is very controlling, and in my opinion, invasive, of their congregants' lives. This, of course, is in an effort to ensure that the people lead biblical lives.
More rambling - keep talking; it helps generate my own creative juices!!!
Thanks again to all!
revo
Date: 09 May 2001
Time: 15:43:14
I think I like the idea of being a member of a perfect family, but the message for the day will be how His Holy Spirit woos us, life in Christ is the engagement(courtship) period, and the Wedding plans that are being made. Since it is Mother's Day I will present this from a woman's point of view. But I will do my best to also give the men in my congregation a better or new appreciation as to what it is like to be the receiver of a love from one who is meant to be your protector,that will not stop persuing you and yet never force it self on you. One illustration I think I will use is how our son-in-law traveled 700 or so miles to make all the wedding plans so that they could be married near the college where they met. How our daughter trusted him to do that, and how she was not disapointed. Any suggested or comments are desired
M&M in Ohio
Date: 09 May 2001
Time: 20:25:40
I am going to include vs. 7 which in the NRSV ends with "and they will be my children". I think i was attracted to this passage because God can do all those things a mother would like to be able to do, but really can't.
revo, I'm with those that suggest those universal feelings of a need for hope, to be consoled when hurt or lonely, and love are still among the experiences of your congregation. But I am intrigued. What do they do?
We are having 25 people to our house for Mother's Day, and I keep telling myself to get going on this, but it hasn't happened yet. Mother's Day sermons make so many people scared because they never know what they are going to get. I used to dread going myself.
blessings, rachel
Date: 09 May 2001
Time: 21:16:47
"No More Hand-me-downs" Many of our older folks and even some of us boomers have memories of having ot wear hand me downs. Some of them, by the time they got to me, were nearly worn out. God is giving a new city, a new creation, a new way of life (with no fear of death or sadness) and new faith. The voice says I am making, not one of these days I will make all things new. This passage calls us to be open to what God is dong NOW. Making ideal families, ideal churches, ideal people. We have the choice of working with God and being made new, or resisting God and . . . . Fisher in TN
Date: 10 May 2001
Time: 05:40:47
I'm using the theme "Behold, I make all things new." We are a church facing major change and transition, of which many people are scared, so I'll emphasise the sense of God doing a new thing our of a time of tribulation/hardship. However, I'm trying to relate it to every day life too. how does God do new things in our lives? How can we see "closed doors" as potential opportunities for God to do a new thing? Any ideas? Rob in Oz
Date: 10 May 2001
Time: 15:46:58
Great discussion! I'm approaching the passage asking; What is our vision for the future? Is it big enough to sustain us in the trying times. Is it as big as this vision of all things new?
This passage stretches me to a greater vision and encourages me to keep hope even in despair.
Some opening thoughts.
Mike in Maine
Date: 10 May 2001
Time: 19:19:23
I am preaching with this Scripture and Psalm 148. In this morning's Dallas Morning News, the front page carried on article on what pastors will be saying from the pulpit this Sunday as the execution of Timothy McVeigh occurs the next week. It was a well-researched article that contained information on how major denominations view the death penalty. The focus of the article seemed to center on UM churches. Wondering where others are on this... KS in Dallas
Date: 10 May 2001
Time: 21:35:41
KS in Dallas - I see it as a good way to show my congregation how to pray for someone whose behavior and mental attitude are abhorent. The nation will never have "closure" at the hands of human justice no matter how atrocious the crime. Praying for our enemies, however difficult it may be, will put any "closure" we need in God's hands where it belongs.
Someone asked about my congregation that doesn't seem to do anything. They're mostly retired, but they're quite an eclectic bunch. One regular couple plays golf, as does a less-regular couple (she's not in good health)
Date: 10 May 2001
Time: 21:49:39
... sorry about that, I'm working with my little one underfoot and she laid her coloring book on my mouse and accidentally sent that post.
What does my congregation do? Not a whole lot - they're retired, by and large. We've got a high percentaghe of complainers and outright antagonists, but nothing someone with a little backbone can't handle. They're pretty eclectic - one crotchety (and prides herself in it) old lady taught school, another man is a retired Army Colenel, another a retired career Boy Scout whose wife is now a partner in a CPA firm. Another man is a retired electrician with not very much money, and others are quite wealthy. Most are educated, but it seems that the old days' college was different than what I experienced (I knew frat parties and the like).
They seem to fritter, and generally they're caring people who do care for the Lord. They've just never had to think about anyone outside of their own church, so their focus has become so narrow.
sorry to ramble - I guess I'm venting!!!
Making all things new - even families that were hurtful.
revo
Date: 11 May 2001
Time: 00:57:34
I too am preaching this one on Mother's day. I wonder about Timothy McVeigh's mother. How is God making all things new for her (actually I don't even know if his mother is alive). When "we give birth to God in our hearts"(Meister Ekhart)we are changed in a manner that we give birth to our true nature.
The Holy Spirit is Mother in labor, giving us opportunity after opportunity to make the New Jerusalem happen. The Pope is a good example of someone willing to step out of the box and try to make amends for the wrongs of the absolutist attitudes and attemp to build bridges between Jew, Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Muslims. Would that we all have such courage and capabilities. (Never thought I'd say something quite that nice about a Pope!)
Men can be mothers too, if they are willing to participate in co-creating a new way of being in the world and acting in accord with that new Divinely inspired creation.
Am I rambling? Somebody stop me! BB in IL.
Date: 12 May 2001
Time: 14:54:47
revo - maybe you can find something from their heyday that you could build upon to lift them to greater vision again. Maybe something with kids with their backgrounds.
You never know what new things God may have in store for them.
rachel