Date: 26 Dec 1999
Time: 05:07:03
I would offer a resource for those working with Mark for the next few weeks (or longer)- Lillenas Drama published a book of skits called "Traveling Light" by Larry Enscoe which goes through the entire book of Mark. They make great sermon introducers or reading applications.
Date: 30 Dec 1999
Time: 17:13:56
Behold, John the Baptist returns from the Advent wilderness to welcome Jesus into the vocational waters of messiahship. John the forerunner not only prepares the way but he initiates our Savior in the waters of redemption. Indeed, as Jesus enters these waters he takes upon himself the stain, the sins, of all those who have entered the Jordan "on their behalf." In these waters where He and I are baptized, life begins again
tom in ga
Date: 31 Dec 1999
Time: 03:07:37
You are my beloved child, Henry Nouwen did a beautiful reflection of this on Robert Schueller several years back. The idea was that all of us our beloved children of God and we are sent on mission by God. Does anybody have a copy or know where it could be tracted down?? thanks, H in IA
Date: 31 Dec 1999
Time: 17:06:28
It seems to me necessary to refer to the literal meaning of baptism: "to make whelmed" in order to get the idea of John's message: "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." I can picture the Baptist out in the river making sure he's getting his penitents completely immersed in the water. I think John's message is clear: that in a relationship with Christ, we are immersed, completely doused with the Holy Spirit. The dove is secondary. Primary is "the heavens TORN APART AND THE SPIRIT DESCENDING." Surely, they must have been filled with wonder at this awesome spectacle! Clare in Iowa
Date: 02 Jan 2000
Time: 12:36:18
JG in WI
Edersheim in his book "Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" notes that what John was doing here was quite revolutionary. Jews did baptize Gentile converts to Judaism. But Jews do not get baptized! Baptism was for Gentiles. John was baptizing Jews. He was, in effect, saying, "You're not Jews at all. You're just like Gentiles." This was quite revolutionary.
Baptism was a total change from one life to another. One baptized would be thought of as a child newly born. There was an unbridgable wall of separation between the life before baptism and the life after. Now this concept works pretty well for those of us who baptize adults, as John did, but not too well for infant baptism. However, for adults, when an adult becomes a Christian, there ought to be an unbridgable wall between the life before Christ and the one after.
Those of you who do infant baptisms will need to develop your own applications, I guess. Sorry.
Date: 02 Jan 2000
Time: 16:45:24
What relationship does the baptism of Jesus have to do with the "manifestation" of the "light of Christ" and the dawning of the Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven? Does Jesus' baptism symbolize his spiritual birth, his being/becoming the New Adam, the New Being, the New Creation? How does this relate to Christmas/Epiphany from a western world perspective in contrast with an eastern world perspective? In what sense does the baptism of Jesus recapitulate/re-actualize the "history" or "sacred stories" of Isreal? That is, Noah, Moses crossing the sea of death in quest of life...followed by the wilderness journey, and the Elijah prophet stories, etc.? PaideiaSCO in reflection meditation in north ga mts
Date: 02 Jan 2000
Time: 16:52:34
Jan 2, 2000 The Greek word for "torn apart" in this translation is the same as the word used to describe the breaking of a women's water at the beginning of the birth process. I once did a sermon I titled, "The Birth Story in Mark" Which it is, of course! Dr. Bob in OK
Date: 03 Jan 2000
Time: 03:19:09
Many scholars sees the baptism that John was offering as being similar to the daily baptism performed by the Essenes at the time. In fact John's very dress offers clues to his training possibly being from the Essenes.
Baptism, as many of you seem to be portraying isn't some magical transformation, you sin when you come out of the water just as you did before. The true transformation comes from the power of the Holy Spirit.
I believe we should be looking as to why Jesus was baptised. The unblimished lamb, perfect in every way surely needed no baptism. Maybe he was showing us that it should be more of an outward sign of the inner grace we are all offered and receive. Whether adult or infant.
In many places John was known to baptise he would have had to step on peoples heads and push them into the mud in order to submerge them in the water. Hence the early churches symbols of the sea shell representing the pouring of water.
DM in OK
Date: 03 Jan 2000
Time: 05:23:52
Reading Donald H. Juel's new book, "The Gospel of Mark" in the Interpreting Biblical Texts (Abingdon, 1999)he explores this text (and the whole of Mark's Gospel) rhetorically. Much of what Juel commented on has, in one way or another, been already explored in the already posted comments. What was new for me was that in Greek, the Spirit does not descend ON Jesus like a dove, but rather descends INTO him. TR in MN
Date: 03 Jan 2000
Time: 20:29:59
I've never responded to this page before but want to let H in IA know that Henry Nouwen wrote a book called "the Life of the Bloved" published by Paulist Press. If that's not the exact title it's close. the book is at my office and I (of course) am at home! ST in GA
Date: 03 Jan 2000
Time: 21:26:34
To me the wonderful thing about the Baptism of Jesus was that he did it at all. Jesus chose to become one of us, stand next to us, kneel next to us, go through all kinds of trials and trails to show us how much he cared.
Boyd in NC
Date: 03 Jan 2000
Time: 22:59:36
Hanging by the door in my office is a small reproduction of a painting of a baptism. The painting depicts a young couple on the left: the father is standing behind the mother, who is holding a baby dressed in a long white baptismal gown. On the right is a priest holding an open book in his left hand and resting his right hand on the baby’s head in a classic gesture of blessing; the priest is assisted by an altar boy at his side.
There is also a painting within the painting: on the church wall behind the figures I have just described is an artist’s rendering of the baptism of Jesus. This painting within a painting is similar to the stained glass window of Jesus’ baptism in our sanctuary. Jesus has apparently just emerged from being immersed in the Jordan River: his long hair is wet, and he is clutching a robe of some kind in front of him. John the Baptist is standing on the riverbank, pouring a small amount of water on Jesus’ head from a scallop shell he holds in his hand. A stream of light and a dove are descending from heaven toward Jesus.
The painting helps to illustrate some of the contrasts, as well as the connections, between the story of Jesus’ baptism and the churches’ practices of baptism. Jesus was of course baptized as an adult, whereas the common practice in churches throughout history has been infant baptism. Jesus was baptized outdoors by immersion, whereas infants are baptized in church by pouring or sprinkling. And while baptism for everyone is not only by water, but also by the Holy Spirit, it was only at Jesus’ baptism that the “Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove.”
The painting also seems to me to suggest that the churches’ practice of infant baptism is a faithful re-enactment of Jesus’ baptism. Or perhaps the artist wanted simply to show that the story of Jesus’ baptism provides the backdrop for every baptism the church administers. (If this painting had been painted by a Baptist artist, no doubt it would have shown an older child or an adult emerging from the baptistry, with the same rendering of Jesus’ baptism on the wall behind the baptistry.)
Doug in Riverside
Date: 03 Jan 2000
Time: 23:23:56
Question for Dr. Bob in OK: where did you find the definition of “torn apart” having to do with a woman’s water breaking? Looking through my Greek-English lexicon of the NT, the only references I can find for “scizw” (the root of “scizomenous”, Mk 1:10) have to do with the tearing of fabric (e.g., the “curtain of the temple was torn in two”).
Doug in Riverside
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 00:18:55
HI. I haven't thought too much about this passage yet, but one of the things that I have always liked about it, is its "Trinitarian" statement of "Father" (voice from heaven), "Spirit" (dove) and "Son" (Jesus). Also, it is interesting how similar is the Father's message from heaven to the voice at the "Transfiguration." I look forward to reading everyone's contributions this week - I'm really getting a lot out of hearing all of your ideas! Keep it up! Jude in Wash.
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 02:31:59
To JG in WI, Did not the Levites practice a Baptism? Could Jesus have been baptized tyo demonstrate his priesthood? JB in KY
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 02:33:53
Sometimes my typing is not the best. It is supposed to be to not tyo. JB in KY
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 13:37:57
As to the question about how this fits into the Epiphany theme, I believe Epiphany means manifestation and who Jesus is is made manifest or made known at His baptism. Generally light is used thematically throughout this church season, but I don't see it here.
That's my angle on how the baptism of the Lord fits into Epiphany.
John near Pitts.
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 18:54:35
I am going to try to think of Baptism as a "wash-n-wear event." Before the new blended materials available today, those who wanted wrinkle-free clothes had to iron them. Today there are new fabrics that make that unnecessary. It is wash n wear.
Baptism is a wash n wear event. We are washed by the Spirit and given new clothes. We are clothed with 1. forgiveness (vs 4); 2. identity (you are my son ) and 3. Spirit (gift for ministry).
Most children know what it is like to get a smiley face sticker for good behavior. In baptism God places his stamp of ownership and approval on us. It does not wear off. You cannot sin it off. You may reject it or choose not to live it out. But who you are and whose you are, are issues beyond our control.
In our baptism in not only forgiveness and identity, but also a call to ministry, a mini ordination (Luther).
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 19:42:40
God creates new life out of our choas God declares we are good through forgiveness. Listen and Hear God speak, "You are my child, with you I am well pleased!"
Bruce in WI
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 20:37:20
I'm planning to do an extended sermon series (Epiphany and Lent) on "Mark's Story of Jesus," and using Ched Myers' companion commentaries *Binding the Strong Man" and *Who Will Roll Away the Stone?*
Anybody else out there using Myers? Any suggestions for good commentaries on Mark?
Doug in Riverside
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 21:54:20
I can't remember where I read and saw it, but there were baptismal pools located near the temple where the priests and also the people were washed so that they would be ritually clean when they made sacrifice. The thing that was radical about John's baptism was that it was a sign of repentance, and yes Gentiles were baptised as part of converting to the Jewish faith, but this was a sign of ritual cleanness, not of repentance. What John is doing is connecting ritual cleanness with repentance. In other words repentance leads one to cleanness and cleanness leads one to repentance. To John these are no longer separate acts. And then to go one step further Jesus'baptism go the extra mile. Baptism ties together repentance, cleanness, AND POWER. Without POWER how can there be cleanness or true repentance? FISHER IN TN
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 21:55:00
I can't remember where I read and saw it, but there were baptismal pools located near the temple where the priests and also the people were washed so that they would be ritually clean when they made sacrifice. The thing that was radical about John's baptism was that it was a sign of repentance, and yes Gentiles were baptised as part of converting to the Jewish faith, but this was a sign of ritual cleanness, not of repentance. What John is doing is connecting ritual cleanness with repentance. In other words repentance leads one to cleanness and cleanness leads one to repentance. To John these are no longer separate acts. And then to go one step further Jesus'baptism go the extra mile. Baptism ties together repentance, cleanness, AND POWER. Without POWER how can there be cleanness or true repentance? FISHER IN TN
Date: 04 Jan 2000
Time: 22:08:05
I'm struck that God and John affirm and bless Jesus BEFORE he begins his ministry. Like most folks shaped by the Protestant Work Ethic, I tend to think God is delighted AFTER we've done something special. I'm also using the Isaiah passage from chapter 42:1-9, esp. the first lines: "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him;". The Jews anticipated God's delight in holy servanthood.
I'm thinking a lot about how powerful God's belovedness of Jesus was and that Jesus needed that blessing to serve from the depths of his soul. Also, we humans need mortal and divine Belovedness to fulfill our Baptismal vowels as servants.
kathryn in northern calif
Date: 05 Jan 2000
Time: 02:00:13
I am a lurker as well as a first year Lutheran seminarian and a youth minister. I am preaching this text Sunday. I appreciate all the perspectives. In the Greek (just finished that class last month) the verbs for the opening of the sky and the descending of the dove are very powerful, not what the english has at all. The skys were ripped open (that has been noted here before) and the dove/spirit is placed in not on Jesus. My Greek Prof loves this text. The skys were RIPPPEDDDD open the dove shoots into Jesus chest, feathers everywhere, and then (not in the text for this week) He is dropped kicked into the wilderness by the Spirit. Mark uses poerful words to portray his message. Terry in MD
Date: 05 Jan 2000
Time: 17:30:43
Will someone help me refresh my Greek enough to understand 'epi' as "into" rather than "on?" In the Lord's Prayer 'epi' is "ON earth as it is in heaven. How then can 'epi' be understood as "INTO" in this passage. I don't have a lot of time to research this point -- but find it quite fascinating. I guess I've forgotten quite a bit of Greek in the past 7 years. Thanks. Revmar
Date: 05 Jan 2000
Time: 18:28:32
The Greek preposition in Mk 1:10 is "eis," not "epi." "Eis" also appears in vs. 9, where Jesus is baptized into the Jordan, and in v. 12, where the Spirit drives Jesus into the wilderness. In his translation of Mk in *A Reordering of Power,* Herman Waetjen has "into" the Jordan, "torn apart," and "into" Jesus in boldface type, calling attention to the literary and theological significance of these words.
Waetjen argues that Jesus' baptism 'into the Jordan' "must be an eschatological experience of death [by immersion] and his subsequent baptism by the Spirit an eschatological experience of recreation or resurrection" (p. xii).
Death and resurrection--the heart of the story--already prefigured and symbolized in baptism.
Doug in Riverside
Date: 05 Jan 2000
Time: 18:30:15
I think the challenge here is to understand the baptism of Jesus as Mark presents it. In other words, by placing this event where he does in his story and by telling the way he does, Mark is trying to accomplish something. As best I can understand it, that "something" deals with the identity of Jesus. From it's very first words, Mark 1 seems to be concerned with showing that Jesus is THE Son of God. By being baptized, Jesus reveals that he is the THE fulfillment of God's promise to be with his people. Jesus fulfills the preaching of John the Baptist, who in turn points us back to the prophecies of Isaiah. In other words, Jesus is the One who surpasses all who have come before, and all that happens since must be interpreted in that light. His baptism, and the subsequent announcement of God from the heavens seal that reality from the very beginning of the gospel. (Now, if anyone out there can help me develop that into a sermon, I would be most appreciative!)
Chris in NC
Date: 05 Jan 2000
Time: 22:09:02
Yes, I'm also using Myers "Binding the Strong Man" & Waetjen "Reordering of Power." Excellent commentaries that have had a very big influence on me as have their authors, esp. Waetjen. I also use the Interpretation commentary on Mark.
Steve in MI
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 00:59:14
John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion IV-XV-3. We must realize that at whatever time we are baptized, we are once for al washed and purged for our whole life. Therefore, as often as we fall away, we ought to recall the memory of our baptism and fortify our mind with it, that we may always be sure and confident of the forgiveness of sins. For, though baptism, administered only once, seemed to have passed, it will still not be destroyed by subsequent sins.
I find Calvin's statement a powerful affirmation of baptism. Mark in Viriginia
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 01:13:20
Jesus came ... and was baptized ...
What was the motivation, what drew him to the waters, was he simply a disciple of John, or was there something more?
What does it mean for us to come .... simply to be baptized into a local congregation or parish community, or is there an ontological reality into which we are born?
In truth, are our lives focused on what is immediate or on a transcendent reality? Was Jesus, are we grasped, by God and empowered for his ministry?
In my depressed moments I think baptism is simply seen as a fancy dedication rite to be used by parents to show off their children -- yet I know that God can even use this.
tom in ga
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 03:37:59
I just heard an interesting comment about the Baptism narrative. The question, who goes to be baptized? Only sinners and converts went to be Baptized. Question was Jesus a sinner? Well according to Jewish law, yes, according to God's law, no. The fact that Jesus identified himself as a sinner, by going to John gives even us lowly sinners hope. Justo in Philly
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 04:10:24
For the question about Nouwen, the book is "Life of the Beloved," a book based on this text and really "must" reading! Nouwen writes with a friend in mind who is not a classic Christian - who has large questions about Christianity, and sees himself as an outsider, wondering what Christianity has to say to him. Nouwen says, basically, that in this text we see the first word that God has to say over our life is one of not only acceptance, but of unlimited love, "You are my Son, the beloved one." Great reaading for a sacramental understanding of life!
On the other hand, we cannot rush too quickly to equate Jesus' baptism with ours. John's baptism was not a "Christian" baptism at all, but a baptism of repentance, a calling of the people of Israel back to their roots in the wilderness. As it has been noted, it was a baptism usually reserved for Gentiles, the "least" in Jewish eyes. He saw God creating a new people for himself, even as God created a new people in the desert out of the slave class that escaped Egypt. The way to a new Israel was through a baptism of repentance, with a new Messiah coming to rule God's new people. That appears to have been his conception, at least. Jesus stepped forward to fill that with meaning - but not quite the meaning that John had supposed. As in the case of every prophet and every prophecy, God delivers more than is promised. John looks for a Messiah to lead this ritually cleansed people; God provides His own Son.
The descending spirit, in Mark, seems to be a very personal thing. Jesus sees it - no one else does, which leads many scholars to think that Mark sees Jesus' Messiahship and Sonship as more in the order of a coronation. Jesus becomes God's Messiah at the time of the baptism. Personally, I'm not too sure about that, but it's an interesting thought. There isn't too much in Mark about the idea that Jesus is eternally God's Son.
Anyway, of course, our baptism is, in many respects, different from Jesus'. Ours is not a baptism of repentance. Ours does not define a career of Messiahship (although some pastors seem to think theirs does on occassion!). So we have to be careful about drawing too many conclusions from the text, which is really about Jesus' calling - an epiphany. It is at that point that we can, however, address the text and bring the two baptisms together: As Jesus' baptism reveals who he is, so ours reveals us, also, as God's children. As his defines his ministry, so does ours (even if it is very different, in many respects, from his!). We have to be careful to hold onto the uniqueness of his baptism and ministry, and yet we can see the ties as well; after all, ours is also an immersion into his life, death and resurrection.
Just a few - perhaps too many - opening thoughts.
Gary in New Bern
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 06:17:23
It wasn't that long ago. Mere months. Certainly no more than a tick on the cosmic clock. There we sat, in a wilderness of sorts, cloaked by the darkness that pressed in about us. Each of us shivering just a bit. Each alone in the quiet sounds of the stable, yet, each speaking our silences to one another, connected. In the shadows, beyond the reach of the one lantern hanging at the end of the barn, large bodies moved restlessly about, an impatient stamp of hooves or sharp snort punctuating the near stillness. Three bales of autumn hay sat just below the glowing lamp, two placed together on the dirt floor and one on top. Sitting on the top bale was a wooden cross, it's bent misshapen bows coming together in a statement of brokeness. There we were, gathered together before an alter of hay, gathered a few days before the time the world would celebrate the one born to die. Prepare the way of the Lord.
Strangely enough, it was so right, the right setting, the right place to be. Perfect, really … except for the large brightly wrapped box setting just in front of the alter, a splash of garish debris insulting this framework of serenity. No sign was attached, no explanation was given. It was simply there, before us, demanding to be noticed. And soon enough we did notice. So we sat, sat in the darkness and stared at the box which invaded our senses and interrupted our thoughts.
After awhile a sound came out of the blackness, softly at first, but then growing louder. Swishing. Swishing. The sound of brooms, back and forth across the dirt floor. Back and forth, coming down the make-shift aisle, moving toward the alter of hay. They moved deliberately, slow and coming, faces painted white, eyes looking out beyond the walls of our confines, seeing that which we could only imagine. They moved between us, not noticing the stares of wonder, the amazed whispers. Mimes, dancing the dance of silence, moving toward the cross.
Around the alter they swept, never pausing, always lost in the ballet that only they knew. And then the box. One stopped before the gaudy object, expressing surprise at the mystery before her. She set her broom aside and gingerly opened it's top. Declarations of delight swept across her face. What could it be?! With caution and expectation she reached into the box and pulled out a chalice, placing it next to the cross. And then, reaching in again, she pulled out something covered in a white shawl.
But now there was no longer the one, for the other sweeper had also noticed. What was it that the first held, now cradling it to her bosom and slightly rocking from side to side? A baby?? Was it a baby?! The second mime had to have it. Speaking in hushed movements, she demanded "Give it to me, let me hold it." The first refused. But again, "Please, please, let me hold it!" Again, refusal. Over and over she pled, and finally, finally, acquiescence. The gift of life was passed, one to another, holding and stroking, celebrating in the language of love.
As the gift was gently, affectionately passed back to the first, the shawl was removed, and the baby was transformed into … bread. A loaf of bread, raised high for all to see, and then with almost a violent gesture, the mime swung quickly about and jammed the bread onto the beams of the cross, right at the juncture point, right at the point of connection. She removed her hands, hardly moving at all, as if in slow motion. And there the bread hung … on the cross, on the battered, misshapen cross.
Returning to their tedious dance, they picked up their brooms, and swept slowly into the blackness from whence they had come. As the pastor among us removed the bread - the body, the baby - from the cross, I knew that our understanding of this gift, this communion, this coming of the Spirit, would forever be changed.
And now I stood there before her. She was silent again, this beautiful mime - Marcia, my friend. But this time there was no swishing, only the buzz and hum of all the monitors, the soft electric whirring of the motors which changed her bed position every few moments. Her breathing was deep, in and out, the steady patterned rise and fall of ventilator induced respiration. She was quiet, yet this silence was not found in the joy of a mime, but in the brutal reality of a coma.
I had received the message earlier in the evening. The news was bad. The family had already gathered. "Prepare for the worst," they had heard. No one could believe it. After all, it was only pneumonia. After all, she was still a young woman. "How could this happen? She had been fine only days before. How could this happen?"
It was after visiting hours when I had entered the Intensive Care Unit. Angels in blue coveralls, moving about with sure purpose, directed me to her small equipment packed room. And now I found myself echoing the same question. The drapes were almost drawn and we were alone, me standing beside her, and she lying there, lost in the depths of unconsciousness. I talked to her for a bit. I told her of nothing important, my comings and goings of the last few months, of the life I had seen and the truths I had learned. I talked, maybe more for myself than for her, wanting desperately to make a difference.
After awhile I began to pray. I stood beside her bed praying, asking God for that which I have seldom asked. Asking God to spare her mortal life. Asking God to deliver her back to us. I pleaded with God, if for no other reason, then to spare her children the death of their only remaining parent. How could they lose her when they had lost their father only a few short years before? I pleaded, and I cried. I cursed and I demanded. I stood by Marcia's comatose form and the deaths of so many past friends washed over me. Please God, not again.
Just when I thought I would drown, suddenly, I heard a voice. It was just as clear as if someone was standing in the room with me. "She will be okay." Nothing more, just simply, "she will be okay." I was stunned, shocked, and then, overwhelmed by peace. Completely overwhelmed. I did not know if she would live or if she would die, but I knew, to the very fiber of my being I knew, that she … that we … would be okay.
I think we oftentimes create our own truths, that our perceptions will most assuredly create our reality, for certainly it can be no other. And though we rarely see that which we deem miraculous, our very existence is immersed within the realm of miracle. Our corporal reality is continually awash in the coming of the Spirit, the tearing apart of the heavens and the descent of the dove. For the dance of life, found in the created beauty of our communal nativity, and ever-present in the surety of mortal endings, remains our constant reminder of God's in-breaking Spirit and God's baptism in and with the world.
Then sometimes, if we are truly fortunate, we might even hear the voice of God. And we will know that we are indeed, beloved.
Marcia, my beautiful friend, this one's for you.
Shalom my friends,
Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 13:29:51
First, let me express apreciation for all who have contributed their faith witness interpretation of the sacred word this week because of the ultimate significance of the sacrament of baptism! Secondly, let me express appreciation for the insightful socratic questions calling forth critical reflective meditation which tom in ga often presents. I find Presence in the questions presented. Thirdly, let me share the tears and joy I experienced...even at 65 years of age...resulting from Nail-bender's sacramental witness in communin and baptism. I know intimately of baptism in the death of my son due to melinoma cancer when he was 24 years old. The waves of living baptisms opening new vistas and understandings of life which I have experienced in my journey all came rushing down upon me with enormous power...I wept..in the face of Nail-bender's sacramental touch. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your ministry as a part of the DPS family! PaideiaSCO in north ga mts
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 18:07:21
Thank you Nailbender, you've got me wondering about what other ways God tears open the heavens to get to us.
The one who came is indeed the Son of God, and He is also as Matthew points out, Emmanuel, God with us!
God Bless Us Everyone!
John Near Pitts.
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 19:42:40
Some good comments here thanks for sharing your thoughts and questions.
This time around I believe the spirit is descending in or on me I'm not sure which or what difference it makes. However I am lead to believe that Jesus is baptized to (and these are in no specific order)
a. tabernacle, live with us. Even though he didn't need to be born baptized or crucified to understand us or appreciate our lot in life. But we needed it. Need it.
b. Since he was baptized and through it was recognized as beloved before he started his work. We too in baptism can be recognized and recognize our own belovedness independent of our actions. This especially emphasized by infant baptism because they haven't had a chance to do anything yet. Don't give me the cute stuff.
But the most important thing to remember is that there isn't any dove. The spirit descended LIKE a dove. I don't care if it is on or in but there is no dove. And besides as far as I know the word there for dove can mean either dove or pigeon.
Arte in Arcadia
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 22:08:36
JG in WI again -
My own take on this has been a preparation for revival.
There were those who came TO the water to see the WITNESS. John was the witness. They came because of what they heard about him in the PAST and came to see it.
There was the one who was IN the water to speak the WORD. John spoke of the PRESENT - Jesus who was actually among them at the time.
There was the one who came OUT of the water to behold the WONDER. Jeus saw heaven opened and the dove descnding. From this point, He moved toward the FUTURE; His ministry.
The PAST calls us and we REMEMBER it. The PRESENT instructs us and we APPLY it. The FUTURE inspires us and we ADJUST our lives to it in obedience to God's call.
There's a few three point outlines for you. Very Baptist of me, huh?
God bless.
Date: 06 Jan 2000
Time: 22:43:57
To Gary in New Bern and Nail-Bender in NC: Many, many thanks for your postings this week. I've posted the first draft of my sermon on the sermon review page so you can see how your contributions helped me.
Doug in Riverside
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 01:35:14
Doug in Riverside:
Thank you, my friend, for sharing your affirming words. I am deeply grateful and thank God that the story was such to have meaning for your congregation. I am always amazed by the depth of our connectedness and the weavings of our particular sojourns as they intertwine into a beautiful tapestry of community, a portrait of the one Body.
By the way, after 5 ½ days in a coma, Marcia returned to us. And yesterday, she was released from the hospital. She is now at home. Praise God!
Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 14:27:43
Thanks to everyone for great stories and reflections. If there is one thing I have come to understand about the Sacraments (Eucharist and Baptism) it is that there is no one theme that exhausts understanding them. In fact, there is always a new theme breaking into our consciousness. Let me throw another one into the mix: Moses led the people through the Red Sea (Reed Sea, take your pick), thus creating a new people that once had been no people. Joshua is demanded to do what? Lead the next generation through the River Jordan, so that they might re-experience the moment of creation, the move from no-people to People of God. Each generation must go through this experience afresh, it is not an inherited trait. So what does Jesus do? Meet John at the Jordan (wouldn't it be too far out if it was the same place Joshua crossed?) to "wade in the water." Like I said, no one theme exhausts the explaining, so neither does this one. It just adds for me another dimension. And why do I like this theme? Because it reminds me that repentence may be an individualistic thing, but we arise from Baptism as part of a corporate thing. Jesus was showing by his Baptism that he was part of the body. Then he proceeds to reconstruct this theme, so that by participation in his death and resurrection (Eucharist) we become HIS body!
Boyd in NC
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 16:42:16
So why was Jesus baptized? What does it mean? What does it matter?
Any takers?
John near Pitts.
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 17:29:27
Doug in Riverside
The first Greek NT I consulted used 'epi' instead of 'eis.' My other Greek NTs used 'eis.' Thanks for making me dig further! Also thanks to Nailbender for the moving story! Revmar
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 17:51:16
To John near Pitts. To fulfill all righteousness - the Pharisees, although close to it with all of their rules and regulations, couldn't quite get there. Either can we. So Jesus came and was baptized to end that silly quest for perfection. It (perfection) was now "Him."
What does it mean? Now we don't have to be imprisoned by the Law - we can have freedom IN Christ, as part of His Body. As we follow suit and are ingrafted into the Body by Baptism, the Spirit indwells us also. We become children of God, as Jesus was identified as God's Son at His baptism.
What does it matter? Not much, if you prefer dark to light, evil to good, prison to freedom. But everything if you seek the Truth in which we were created.
Just some immediate thoughts. Thanks - Jude in Wash
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 18:08:45
Dear DPS members
I contribute and consider myself a member of this site. I care for your comments, and personally have written Nailbender, HW for Hawaii, and others. So what I share with you this morning is very important to me, and I elicit your prayers for the service on Sunday, and what God wants to happen during the service.
1. Because our congregation is hosting a homeless shelter on Saturday night, there is controversy within our Village because some feel the community should have decided whether it could be held in our community, and that the Government should decide whether this is a change in the churches' use. Others including the coongregation feel this is no change in use, but it is part of our mission. PBS has taken an interest in this issue, and will be televising the service( just parts)
2. On this Sunday in our lectionary, the Baptism of Jesus is the Subject. John near Pitts. Questions are apropos. I feel Jesus Baptism is significant of God's love for humanity and all of Creation and all that the human spirit connected with the Holy Spirit can create. I have been preaching from the Old Testament, and my primary text for this Sunday's message will be the first 5 verses from Genesis.
3. I have been asked by my son (and also my daughter-in-law) to Baptize his 21/2 month old daughter this Sunday. Her middle name is the name of my own mother. This is my first granddaughter, and the delight of my life. I am honored by this opportunity.
4. I know some would say this private information has nothing to do with the exegesis of the Mark passage (I apologize for that), but if you have any comments, prayers, suggestions for my message on Sunday, I would appreciate it. Shalom
Pasthersyl
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 18:24:36
This is my first time contributing, so please, be gentle.
In the movie "Amadeus," Salieri was the King's official composer. He was considered the greatest composer of Austria. Then one day, a young upstart comes to Vienna and becomes hailed as a musical genius. Salieri becomes amazed at this young Mozart's talent, but quickly becomes disgusted that God has chosen to waste such talents on a boorish, rude, childish boy. Salieri knew that, no matter how great people would ever think he was, that Mozart was much more talented. All the accolades that should be going to Salieri instead go to Mozart, and it possibly drove Salieri to murder the one who had surpassed him so easily.
All that talent was right there, and he was forced not to accept the cheers, but simply witness as another took them.
John the Baptist was followed by many people who thought he was the Messiah. Yet, John knew there was one person so much greater than him that he was not even worthy to untie his shoes. When Jesus came around for baptism, the skies parted, the dove descended, and the Voice of God came from heaven, proclaiming that Jesus is the Messiah.
If John were like, oh, say, 98% of us today, he might become jealous and try to upstage Jesus. He might even try to eliminate him so that John could have the accolades of the crowds again. Instead, John told everyone that Jesus was the chosen one, not him.
To me, that says a lot more about John's belief in Jesus than the baptism. Anyone could have baptized Jesus; all they needed was authority and water. John's baptizing Jesus was John's way of denying himself for God.
RevRon in NE OH
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 18:58:57
"To fulfill all righteousness"...
"To fulfill the scriptures"...
"To visibly manifest the Paraclete incarnate"...
One thing I've come to appreciate is that I need to TRY and explain things in the simplest possible terms for my congregation, several of whom are not high school graduates and have no formal education past 8th grade (they didn't need it to work the land and the quarries in their working years). And even the college and post-grads among the flock defer to their self-proclaimed ignorance of theological issues and biblical knowledge when confronted with the sacraments. Even thought they know more than they think they know, there is a strange reluctance to apply their reason and knowledge to their faith, enmeshed as it is so deeply with traditions and, well, superstitions and long-held misunderstandings (don't question what you were taught in Sunday School thirty or forty years ago, even though it may be utterly wrong). I need to appeal to emotion wih getting sentimental, and use reason without becoming scholarly. In short, they want to see an EXPERIENCE that is real, that can maybe be theirs.
So, what does baptism mean? And how to interpret Mark 1?
Jesus is driven to be baptized by the prolonged urging of his soul, the pull of conscience and perhaps years, decades, of spiritual seeking and yearning. He has watched his own people, his own family and friends, struggle with exploitations of every kind by Romans, by their Judean puppets, by the rich and powerful, by Pharisees and priets and scribes who offer stock answers and little comfort or justice. He's seen many of his people loose their land, their homes, and their very lives. His soul cries out for justice, for peace, for understanding. He wants to know God, and God's reasons, God's plan. So when he hears of John, he sees an opportunity, a chance to move closer to God, to give as much as he can of himself in hopes of receiving as much as he can...and he expereinces an utterly remarkable vision...God's spirit so overwhelms him, he "sees" the heavens ripped open and the spirit dove descending to...HIM. He is completely overcome with the joy, power, and peace of the spirit. He looses himself, so totally and and utterly that there is ONLY God. He has seen the other world, the world of God within/behind/underlying this world. And he is forver changed, forever charged with showing us that this world can be ours too, IS ours. He is compelled by love absoltuely, his soul and very being glowing and shining not with reflected light and power, but the very light and power of God--he is transparent like a window, into the heart of God.
The later gospel writers feel the need to clean up this event, to make John subordinate to Jesus, and make Jesus sinless, perfect, a "going though the motions" Jesus. But in Mark, we have a pround and beautiful spirirtual awakening and claiming, so powerful that it changes history and can change us. No need to clean it up, but just simply let it be what it us. Let the experience of Jesus speak for itself. Let the experience move us to the same seeking and yearning. The baptism itself is not that important...but the relationships it reveals are everything.
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 20:29:26
OFF TOPIC-- I'm using the Reaffirmation of Baptism idea from the UM Hymnal for the first time this week. I'm seeking input on the discussion site. Thanks, ST
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 21:46:46
Dear DPS'ers this too has nothing to do with our scripture, but please pray for my churches and me. I told them last week that I will be resigning and there is a lot of hurt and a lot of anger. I know that time will heal, and the Lord has His hand on us, but I'm really hurting. I need to leave because of health and stress. I am asking God to guide me with this sermon and each step, but right now, it hurts. Thank you.
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 21:54:31
I am intrigued by the notion that the Greek word for "torn apart" is the same word used to describe the "breaking of water" when a woman gives birth. This would go so well with what I have planned this week. Could the person who contributed this wonderful notion also tell us what the word is? Also what is the English equivalent? It would be most appreciated.
Thanks
WJA in California
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 22:52:19
Excellent contributions as usual! I too am curious about the "torn apart" word being the same as the word for "breaking of waters" when a woman gives birth. I was also curious about the "literal meaning of baptism" being "whelmed." So...I tried to find that word and couldn't. Finally just looked up the word "whelm" (it seems funny without the over in front) and boy what a definition! (1) to turn something hollow upside down on something else, as to cover it. (2) to throw something over violently or in a heap upon something else (3) to cover completely with water so as to ruin or destroy; to submerge, to drown (4) to engulf or bear down like a flood.
Sounds like the "old man" nature being uprooted by his heels! Perhaps "whelm" is the death part of baptism.
But maybe, the other word (torn apart as in the waters of birth) is the life part of baptism. My sermon title will be "Wet and Whelmed." Sure like to know the torn apart word though...
Jude in Wash.
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 23:05:11
Greetings,
Welcome to RevRon! thank you for your contribution, it's good to have you aboard.
To the unsigned poster who is struggling with resignation -- blessings to you and much strength in the name of the Lord. My prayers are with you.
Pasthersyl, Wow! You have quite a Sunday coming up........ although you are preaching on the Genesis text, I see a connection in your situation with the Mark reading also. I am focusing on the Henri Nouwen concept of "beloved-ness". He describes the baptism of Jesus as the core experience of Jesus' life. No matter what he faced in the ministry that followed that extraordinary moment, he always had a place to return to -- the knowledge that he was the Beloved Son of God, in whom God was well pleased. Whether he was being praised or rejected, supported or abandoned, Jesus always had that moment, for it was a moment that marked his very identity. In our own baptism, we have the same gift. We are embraced and enveloped in the love of God, who claims us and calls us God's own. This means that our jobs don't define us, our "stuff", our cars, our homes, these don't define us, our successes and failures don't define us........ only the love of God, claimed and revealed for us in Jesus Christ, truly identifies us.
Jesus' "core experience" then becomes ours, and the basis of who we are lies in our accepting and responding to the words, "You are my Beloved Daughter; in you I am well pleased".
Also, as another poster has mentioned, the fact that Jesus' baptism preceded his ministry, proclaims a good stewardship message that may relate to your homeless shelter. Jesus' ministry began in the knowledge of God's grace, and so does ours. We live out our ministry (for the poor, for example), not to gain "God points", but to respond to the love shown us in our own baptism.
I'll be keeping you in prayer on Sunday!
Blessings, SueCan
Date: 07 Jan 2000
Time: 23:14:45
Thanks for your prayers and words of encouragement, and thoughtful insights with this Scripture and the homeless shelter, SueCan. I also am in prayer for the one who feels they must resign. I am praying God's Spirit give you peace, comfort and direction in these next weeks to come.
Shalom
Pasthersyl
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 03:11:02
The Greek word being discussed is skizomenous (transliteration - skizomenous) ... "being rent". I don't know about it being the same as water broken at birth, but it is of the same Greek root used when Jesus dies on the cross and the temple curtain is rent (escisqh - escisth). Words that come from the same root are schism, schizophrenic, etc... Pretty powerful, huh? One could tie this is to just about anything God does. Whatever God does totally rents the fabric of our understanding. Great connections with the Genesis passage.
SLC in NY
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 03:49:06
Another thought on the rending of the heavens - Isaiah 63.19-64.1 talks about the prophet's desire for a similar event, where God's presence causes catastrophic events to happen - compare the same sort of events in the psalm for today (29). The prophet has been praying for God's return to his people, and he now comes - but for the righteous, who still acknowledge their sinfulness. The voice which is heard ( by Jesus only, according to Mark ) is the "bath qol" of the Rabbis, which had not been heard for centuries. Here, after what seems like a long absence, God is returning to his people! Jesus is the "instrument" through which the power of God ( the Spirit ) is manifested to Israel ( cf. John's 'he who has seen me has seen the Father' ). Psalm 29 is a song of re-creation - the world is remade. If we connect this with the Genesis reading, then it seems to me that the emphasis today is on the theme of the new creation, symbolised by Jesus, who IS the new creation, and through whom we also are re-created. Fr Dixon in Melbourne, Australia.
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 03:57:24
Why was Jesus baptized? Be careful not to make a case of his not needing it--as to question the sincerity of Jesus. To say it was for us instead of for himself and his own relation to God I think takes away its being real and meaning.
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 03:58:20
To ST, I have used the Reaffirmation of Baptism from the UM Hymnal several times, and there is something special about it - something very holy. I have people come forward to the font and place their hand(s) in and feel the water (much more effective than simply sprinkling water towards the congregation, or other means where the people stay seated). The last time I did it, I had them come forward with another, or as a family unit. As they placed their hands in the water, I had them look the other in the eye and say to them, "You are a beloved child of God." Very powerful! Blessings to you and your congregation - they will be moved by this ritual, I'm sure. My prayers go out to all others this week, especially those going through difficult times. Life is hard - but God is good!
pastorchad
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 04:13:12
I want to make two points: 1--Be careful not to question the validity or the sincerity of Jesus baptism by claiming he did not need to. It was not a make believe like he was one of us. It was in his baptism that the heaven "tore apart", the Spirit [of God] descended on/in him, he was claimed as Son, and pleasing to God. WOW! 2--The baptism of Jesus and Spirit's descending is surely the "Coming of the Kingdom" in Jesus. The baptism/Spirit connection in the Acts text--was likewise the coming of the Kingdom for those baptised. Somehow it suggest that it might be so for the rest of us--a claiming of us as children of God. Bob in MO.
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 04:13:21
I want to make two points: 1--Be careful not to question the validity or the sincerity of Jesus baptism by claiming he did not need to. It was not a make believe like he was one of us. It was in his baptism that the heaven "tore apart", the Spirit [of God] descended on/in him, he was claimed as Son, and pleasing to God. WOW! 2--The baptism of Jesus and Spirit's descending is surely the "Coming of the Kingdom" in Jesus. The baptism/Spirit connection in the Acts text--was likewise the coming of the Kingdom for those baptised. Somehow it suggest that it might be so for the rest of us--a claiming of us as children of God. Bob in MO.
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 10:36:58
Pasthersyl - I have watched many people, including much of my family of origin, go absolutely nuts when a will is read or a homestead broken up - almost to the point of, "the dust bunnies under the bed are mine, she wanted me to have them!!!!!" We see a lot of greed around inheritances. And yet, on Sunday, you will be giving your grandchild their inheritance - undiminished from when you received it, even increased since that point - the inheritance of faith. So many in this world have lost their inheritance completely - they will hire lawyers to chase after money and property, but let true wealth slip away unnoticed. Pass down the legacy with a full heart, knowing we all rejoice for, and with, you.
Nailbender - please consider publishing, if you haven't already - cyberspace is not big enough to hold the gift you have received from the Spirit!
To the one retiring - mazel tov, my friend - it's true that where God closes a door he opens a window - it's just that sometimes it feels like he left the screen in!
thank you all for your thoughts
shypastor
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 13:33:53
Gosh it's good to come back and read these posts. Happy and Blessed New Year to all. Da Rev in MD.
Date: 08 Jan 2000
Time: 13:34:05
Gosh it's good to come back and read these posts. Happy and Blessed New Year to all. Da Rev in MD.
Date: 09 Jan 2000
Time: 02:38:12
A couple of late notes on a Saturday night....
A couple of folks asked about the reason for Jesus' Baptism, and how important it was. One of the classical understandings of it, of course, is that it was "for us," as was the rest of his ministry - that it was a kind of annointing as Messiah and prophet, after the fashion of David et al, as he began his ministry, as well as standing in the place of Israel and, in this sense, being baptized, as later he would also die, on its behalf - therefore a fulfillment of Messianic texts such as Isaiah 53. As another contributor mentioned, however, this is mostly the church theologizing about the event (which should not be taken lightly either!).
Going back to the event itself, as others have mentioned, John was doing a common thing in an uncommon way. He was baptizing Jews (normally only Gentiles were baptized)as well as Gentiles, a sign of the inclusiveness of God's redemption and of a sign of the breaking down of barriers between SJew and Gentile - a barrier that many of his time would have thought necessary to "fulfill righteousness." He was in the wilderness, a place where God had brought into being his people, creating them out of "no people." Calls into the wilderness were understood as calls to purity (as for instance, the Essene community). "Repentence" is usually understood as "godly sorrow" for what we have done, with a desire not to do it again, but that is really not the idea of the word. It is merely a taking of a new path. For those who came to John, it signified a death by drowning (baptism) in the waters, and a rising to a new and different life - seemingly understood in ethical terms by John. For some, it might even mean separation from family, being "considered dead" by them, so that they could follow the new life (after all, despite Josephus et al, Judaism was generally looked down on as a "pagan" religion.
The question is: "How did Jesus view his baptism?" From the text (and that is all we have), we only know that Jesus did it "to fulfill righteousness," and that he experienced the coming of the Holy Spirit. "Righteousness" has to do with "right relationship ;" it seems to me that the two elements point to an understanding of calling - that Jesus saw this as a turning point in his life, a time to be immersed in the will of his father and the ministry to which he was being called. Prophets and kings would become recipients of the Spirit as they began their official calling. I think that is what this text is about: Jesus receiving his calling.
The most natural point of contact would have to do with either our own calling as pastors, and/or the calling "out of our baptism" by our parishoners. The ELCA publication on The Ministry of the Baptized, completed a couple of years ago, might be helpful (or something similar out of other traditions).
Gary in New Bern
Incidentally, thanks again, Nailbender - a wonderful declaration of grace; I thank God things turned out well. I took a similar tack in my sermon, but in a story (I was thinking particularly of the Christmas connection)where the outcome was not as happy (standy.org).
Date: 09 Jan 2000
Time: 20:41:32
Doug in Riverside and others. Sorry that I didn't get back to you. I only browse this site on Sunday afternoons when I am studying for the next weeks sermon. I ran across the idea of the tearing of the heavens with the tearing of the membrane of a woman at birth (Breaking of the water) during a Greek class many years ago. Our teacher whose name I have long forgotten was conversant in several forms of Greek and brought this to our attention. It does make complete sense in that the base word, "Skizo" means, among other things to tear or rend which is what happens at when a woman's water breaks. He shared from other Greek literature where it was used in just that way. Sorry this is so late. I will keep a closer eye on this site in the future If I make a comment. Dr. Bob