Date: 12 Nov 2002
Time: 04:35:10
My first-time comment is coming up...up from "Down Under". It seems to me that one of the recurring themes coming through recent lectionary readings is that of the "absentee" Lord. We have a God who seems to be in a far country, on a long journey somewhere, taking his time arriving, hiding in the darkness. This makes walking by sight virtually impossible. Only by faith do we see His fingerprints and footprints all over the place and even then we must often fail to recognise Him. "Lord when did we see you thirsty? I see a connection with the day of Ascension, when the disciples were told to stop gazing into the sky but to get on about their business. Yes, we are warned to be watchful, to be ready for the return of the Lord, but I see this parable as saying that we do that best with our eyes down rather than up and that it is "the least" that He will come to us each and every day. Wok of Qld
Date: 15 Nov 2002
Time: 06:19:01
Does anyone know something about the work of a shepherd in biblical times? It may not be that important, but I would like to understand why a shepherd would need to separate the sheep from the goats. How did they get mixed up to begin with? Was this an everyday event? Or just at the end of a certain season perhaps? Thanks! K in SC
Date: 15 Nov 2002
Time: 06:54:38
K in SC asked about the first century practice of shepherds and the separation of goats from sheep. I did a little web-surfing research and found the following:
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From a bible study on the websit of St. Athanasius Orthodox Church, Isla Vista, Calif:
In ancient cultures, sheep and goats were raised together (and still are today in some parts of the world) since both need grazing and they eat more or less the same thing. Yet sheep and goats are quite different. Goats were generally dark in color and sheep generally white. Goats are able to cope with mountains and rocks, but sheep prefer the flatter valleys. Goats will eat the leaves off trees, whereas sheep prefer grass. Goats graze all day while sheep lie down in the shade during the heat of the day. Goats were less popular than sheep because goats are destructive, grazing closer to the ground and destroying pasture. Goats also have a more stubborn, less pleasant disposition. It was the "scapegoat" that took the sins of the people to the wilderness on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:22). On the other hand, a sheep was preferred in many sacrificial offerings over a goat.
Both sheep and goats produced benefits for their owners. Sheep produced wool for clothing, milk for food and reproduced rapidly. Goats also produced milk (3 quarts per day) plus hair for a sack cloth tent covering and skin for leather. Goat meat was not as tasty as lamb, however. For a shepherd who has raised both sheep and goats separating them is easy.
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The full bible study is at http://www.stathanasius.org/bible/mar_5_2000.html
From a bible study on the website of Metropolitan Baptist Church, Washington, DC:
During the evening the shepherd separated his sheep from the goats. Quite naturally, there is a practical reason for this. The animals were separated based on their temperaments. Goats naturally seek shelter when it is available and do not like to get wet. Goats are less tolerant of wet cold condition and as a result, can easily become sick. To protect the goats from the elements, shepherds place goats in open sheds or in artificial shelters. On the other hand, the sheep prefers the comfort of the open field and the open air. They love to graze in the clover and they love the open spaces of the sheep walk or pasture. The disciples readily understood the picturesque language because the shepherds in the land separated their flocks every evening as they returned to the sheepcote (Ezek. 34:17). At twilight the shepherds stand at the gate to the sheepfold and tap their rods on the ground. The sheep go to the right and the goats to the left.
The full bible study is at http://www.metropolitanbaptist.org/ministry/SSonline/lesson43.htm
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Hope that helps....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 15 Nov 2002
Time: 17:42:39
It's still early in the process, but here goes. Sometimes I think when we hear this text we get stuck thinking about who will be the sheep and who will be the goats on the day of judgement. And yet I think there is a deeper message here, given that this lesson is chosen for Christ the King Sunday. Jesus is identifying himself as one of the vulnerable. That is what his "kingship" is all about. Therefore, as he is judging the nations, as it says in the beginning, he will be looking for those who have treated "members of his family" verse 25:50 kindly. What that means for us--members of Christ's body--is that our servanthood should look like Jesus' servanthood. That is the challenge for Christians listening to this text--not whether or not they will be saved sheep--that is a given. But, are we in fact letting ourselves become vulnerable--as Jesus did--in order to bear the gospel to those most needing to hear it? Are we, like Christ, willing to encounter people in their pain and sorrow, their hungering and thirsting as sisters and brothers? Or do we not risk becoming vulnerable ourselves and instead give our "charity" to the poor and those "less fortunate" than us. Maybe this Scripture is inviting us to learn how to be vulnerable with each other in the Christian community, being Christ-like to one another, so we might then open ourselves to others too. GB in MI
Date: 16 Nov 2002
Time: 07:24:33
Thanks to KinSC for the question about the shepherd, sheep and goats. And also for the many responses which are very interesting. I had never thought much about the question, but now that it has been raised I find it very meaningful as well as the responses. Thanks. Bob in Jersey City, New Jersey
Date: 16 Nov 2002
Time: 09:04:58
A poem:
I was hungry -- and you formed a humanities club and discussed my hunger. I was imprisoned and you crept off quietly to your chapel and prayed for my release. I was naked, and in your mind you debated the morality of my appearance. I was sick, and you knelt and thanked God for your health. I was homeless, and you preached to me of the spiritual shelter of the love of God. I was lonely and you left me alone to pray for me. You seem so holy; so close to God. But I am still very hungry, and lonely, and cold. -- Anonymous.
tom in ga
Date: 16 Nov 2002
Time: 09:27:46
What is our vision of Christ's "kingship" today? In what way can we relate the meaning of this feast to the everyday lives of the everyday denizens modern Euro-American society (including all the other parts of the world where that society holds sway)?
I have a collection of Jesus figurines -- not the sort you'd expect. I have two "Jesus Action Figures" from different manufacturers; I have a bobble-head Jesus; I have the Sacred Heart of Jesus nightlight; I have a sculpture of the Ascension in which Jesus floats in a block of acrylic (this was a gift and started the rest of the collection); I have Jesus enshrined (literally, with little plastic candles and flowers) in an empty tequila bottle; I have the "Buddy Christ" figurine from the movie "Dogma".... all of these, together with a Christ-the-King cross, a San Damiano crucifix, and some other more traditional stuff, are images of Jesus which might illustrate how Jesus is understood today -- are any of them helpful in placing Jesus the King in modern context?
I don't know -- I think so, but I'm not sure -- but that's what I'm pondering and working on.
I don't really care about sheep and goats, or who's which and where they go. That's God's business and way to distant for me to worry about. I worry about now and whether the people in my congregation have (right now) any sort of relationship with Jesus -- whether as king and liege lord, or as "Buddy Christ", or ... whatever. That is, I think, the more important question raised by this feast.
Thoughst a week ahead....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 17 Nov 2002
Time: 06:27:16
I wonder if the story about Jake Porter would preach with this text... 'Jake's' just one of us
By Cathy Mong and Margo Rutledge Kissell / Cox News Service 11-01-02
WAVERLY, Ohio -- Coach Dave Frantz doesn't know what all the fuss is about. But 17-year-old Jake Porter has humbly become everybody's hero.
"I need a nap," the affable Jake, sporting his red and black Northwest High School leather jacket, said Thursday after school, between a newspaper interview and on-air talk show with a Cincinnati radio station.
Jake was born in Dayton with chromosomal fragile X syndrome," which causes mental retardation. But that hasn't stopped Jake, who lists his favorite subject as track.
Why everyone loves Jake is he brings out the best in human nature, Frantz said, as was demonstrated late in a football game Oct. 18 when the Waverly Tigers were ripping the Northwest Mohawks 42-0.
"It all started the previous week," Frantz said, "when I suggested to Coach (Derek) DeWitt that we let Jake 'take a knee' the last play."
That's when a player takes the football and falls to one knee to kill the ball and allow the play to end.
"He said that would be great," Frantz said.
The visiting Mohawks arrived early and Coach DeWitt had a chance to meet Jake.
"Along comes my shadow," Frantz said, smiling and motioning to Jake, who hangs out with Frantz during lunch and helps keep order during hall duty. "(DeWitt), like everybody else Jake meets, took an instant liking to him."
With 5 seconds left in the game, Frantz substituted Jake as running back. "Coach DeWitt said, 'Let him score, Coach. We're going to let him score.'"
I think it's a good story... although some say it's not. for Jake it worked, for his team it worked, for his coach it worked, for his mom it worked... some argue that they teach their "special gifted children" that they are normal, so just being in the game would have been enough... I'll let you decide...
The rest of the story is found at this site:
http://www.coxnews.com/newsservice/stories/2002/1101-PLAYER.html
'Jake's' just one of us
Blessings early in the week...
pulpitt in ND
Date: 17 Nov 2002
Time: 09:49:05
I am struck by the fact that Christ is in cognito in our world. And that even the righteous do not see. They are as suprised as the unrighteous at our Lord's comments. What does this suggest regarding how we should live our lives and our discipleship?
I am also taken that these readings follow upon Judges which we read last week. If you recall there was no king for Israel until Saul and before Saul there were twelve Judges who followed YHWH, the King.
With this Gospel we return to Jesus as King renewing the relationship the Israelites had in the Promised Land.
tom in ga
Date: 17 Nov 2002
Time: 13:09:30
tom and lp ... i took last week off -- was supposed to go to Indianapolis for a marching band competition, but ended up staying home ... so i just let the supply priest continue to handle it and really stayed home!
thanks for asking.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 17 Nov 2002
Time: 18:55:48
Knowing a bit about the behavior of goats (been raising them for 25 years) and a tiny bit about sheep – I would suggest that Jesus was not using these two animals as a metaphor but rather saying that the righteous and the sinners were separated like apples and oranges. I may be wrong
The personalities of these two animals exhibit qualities that can be detrimental and/or beneficial to the church. If everyone was a sheep they would remain in one spot and the church would have never left Jerusalem. It is the goats that will adventure out into the world looking for fresh pasture and forage. The analysis that Eric posted is erroneous when it speaks of goats being over grazers. If not confined goats will range far and wide as they browse. They prefer not to graze on grass much – preferring weeds and shrubs. Sheep on the other hand are notorious over grazers who will eat grasses down to and even including the roots. Before they move on. This is one of the big jobs of the shepherd is to move the flock to “green pastures.” When flocked together the sheep will follow the trail of the goats.
The people who are like sheep give stability to the church, while those who are like goats give it life and vitality as they lead the church to :greener pastures. With only goats the church would be capricious and with only sheep it would be stale and dead eating dirt because there is no more grass.
I don't think that the Hebrew people valued sheep over goats. The Passover lamb is to be a 1 year perfect male of the sheep or the goat. The day of atonement in Lev 16 describes the sacrifice of a goat as a sin offering for the people of Israel and the “scapegoat” which carries the sins of the people to a desolate area. So the high priest offers a bull, a goat, a ram as a burnt offering and a second goat is sent out with the sins of the people. It sounds like all these animal are valued. Sheep for their wool and to a small extent for their milk; goats for their milk and hair which is used to make tents for people who live in desert areas. So one clothes you and the other feeds and shelters you and both provide meat.
I'll close with Proverbs 27: 26-27
“The lambs are for thy clothing, and the goats are the price of the field*. And thou shalt have goats' milk enough for thy food, for the food of thy household, and for the maintenance for thy maidens.”
* “Price of the Field” is the name of a famous herd of Nubian dairy goats in Oklahoma.
Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 05:21:46
Deke said, "The analysis that Eric posted is erroneous when it speaks of goats being over grazers."
Thanks for the correction, Deke. I wondered about that. Having shepherds in the family, I know that sheep are over-grazers and wondered whether goats could be any worse ... but that's what the bible study said, and that's all I was doing -- quoting what I'd found.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 09:33:43
Here's a thought - is the gospel saying it doesn't matter what church you go to or what prayers you pray - or even whether you are Christian or Buddhist or Muslim or some other stripe - salvation is found in relationships - so how you are with others is how you are with God - A childlike understanding of the world says, "If people are starving, feed them" - we try to tell a child it's more complicated than that, but is it?? Is this why whores and tax collectors go into the kingdom ahead of us priestly types - because they live amid needs and try to meet them - not only the basic human needs of food and shelter and clothing, but also the basic human needs of love and dignity and respect?
I use this more frequently for funerals than anything else, and talk about what 'everyday sainthood' looks like - not the great spiritual athletes, just the gentle souls who shed light into any corner they see by imagining that any person before them is Christ in disguise, and serving that way -
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 09:44:33
Eric, without humans in the mix, managing or perhaps mismanaging wild sheep and goats don't cause damage to the range. When we enter the mix with our desire for maximizing production that things get out of balance.
That said, and back to the text, I still think that we tend to read scripture our own prejudices. It was probably very common to run mixed herds and at shearing time it would be necessary to separate the sheep from the goats. An interesting aside and perhaps the herdsmen used this method to get the sheep into the shearing pens is the "judas goat." It is common in west Texas sheep markets and in sheep slaughter houses to us a goat to lead the sheep to the auction ring or to the killing floor. Sheep will follow a goat, and the judas goat is trained to lead them through the gate and double back out before it can close. Now that is a case of bad leadership. I pray that none of us is guilty of the same.
My mind is just in a meandering mood, sorry. The real issue here is the general judgement of the living and the dead and with that its accompaning doom to eternal punishment or eternal life. The interesting thing to me is that neither the righteous or the wicked are aware of their state. "Lord, when was it that I saw you..... is on both their lips. If the righteous and the unrighteous are clueless then how is this usefull to us? - first as Christians and then as preachers. Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 12:30:47
tom in ga, Your statement about Christ being in cognito reminded me of the popular song from a few years ago by Joan Osborne, "What if God was one of us...just a stranger on the bus trying to make his way home?" What indeed does it mean for us to be followers of such a king, "hidden" in the least of those in our midst? It seems to me that Christ meets us all most profoundly at the times of our deepest brokenness and vulnerability. And that is when our sharing of the good news can also be most profound for others too. GB in MI
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 13:16:33
Welcome back, Eric! Yes, Richard Donovan't site is helpful. Deke in TX, what a very interesting piece of information about the use of a goat to lead the sheep. That will preach somewhere, sometime--maybe not for this sermon but it will preach! Thanks. lp in CO
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 14:05:22
I'm wondering about that left hand the goats are placed on. Seems like I remember two brothers asking Jesus to place them, one on his right hand and one on his left ... I doubt either James or John was asking for the punishment promised to the goats. What changed? When did the left hand go from being a place of lesser honor (but honor nonetheless) to being a placement of condemnation? Is this even a worthwhile line of thought? Seems kind of picky for practical-minded me.
Tom - love the poem. It fits in with my sermon yesterday; we're afraid to actaully interact and so bury what God has given us. I think I'll continue on this theme.
See ya Wednesday! I'm taking tomorrow OFF!
Sally in GA
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 15:12:23
I need a job. Anyone got a reasonably well paying one for an Anglican priest with two kids in college? 'Cause after I preach what I really want to preach on Sunday, I'm pretty sure I'll be needing one.
Y'all know what I'm talking about -- I want to preach this lesson the way it ought to be preached. A demand for commitment, for selflessness, for ministry by all ... no wishy-washy come to church when the kids don't have soccer practice and the Chiefs aren't playing... no I come to church to have my needs met... no I put $10 in the plate and expect everything to be done for me... Either make and keep the commitment, in which case you MAY get to stay with the sheep, or don't. If you don't ... leave. Go over there with the goats and enjoy yourself.
That's what I want to preach. If I do, I need a job.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 19:24:24
The first hearers of this parable were surprised that when we serve "the least of these" they were serving the Son of Man, the Lord Jesus Christ. We aren't surprised by this any more, even though we often have a hard time making that connection in our day to day living. I think that, rather than calling for more commitment to the poor (I am fortunate to be serving a very mission-oriented congregation), I think it might be more helpful to give them some tools to keep this before them.
The phrase I think I will use, that they can remember and use when explaining/witnessing to others, is "They were thinking of Jesus."
For example: Why did Fanny Crosby work among the poor? She was thinking of Jesus. How could Mother Theresa work in such desperate conditions? She was thinking of Jesus. Why do we feed the hungry at the homeless shelter, distribute blankets to those who won't come in from the cold, and re-clothe those who don't know how to take care of their clothes? We are thinking of Jesus.
Of course, I will have to have the congregation sing, "Jesus, The Very Thought Of Thee" -- which, when tied to this scripture, may change some hearts to a more loving attitude towards the neighbors God gives us to serve.
OLAS
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 19:44:01
Eric in KS,
You're getting dangerously close to saying that we can buy our salvation if only we are committed enough... Is that really what you want to say?
I'm with the earlier poster (sorry, didn't check back to see who it was) who said, even the righteous did not recognize Jesus in those they had served.
Still don't know how I'm going to preach it, though.
Michelle
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 20:00:36
Thanks to Eric in KS for your research on Sheep and Goats and the others who have personal experience. I too looked a little bit...and one place I found the idea that ancient people drew moral analogies from the habits of sheep and goats (basically, sheep good, goats bad). But you all have me thinking that really Jesus isn't interested in any of that. The point is, this is a VERY familiar scene. The listeners wouldn't have been surprised by this business of separating the animals because they saw it all the time. In fact, I'm starting to think it's part of the set up. As I keep reading this passage in the context of what preceeds it, it does seem Jesus has set us up. He's used vivid apocalyptic imagery, he's reminded us that we must be on the watch for we do not know the hour...we must not "play while the cats away" for he may show up at any minute, and we are responsible for what he has entrusted to our care and he will want a full report whenever it is that he does finally return. And so now, we're not talking about masters and slaves and bridesmaids anymore, we have the actualy Son of Man on the throne...HE'S BAAAACK and he's separating people, which doesn't phase us at all because it's just like sheep and goats, and we're ready to hear whether these people "gave the members of the household their supplies at the proper time" (end of chapter 24), or"kept their lamps lit," or multiplied the masters money (or whatever he entrusted to their care), if they were READY when he arrived and Jesus pulls the rug out from under us and says, actually folks, you see, the supplies, the lamps, the property/money... all those analogies are best summed up by asking "how did you treat people who needed help?...did you or didn't you?" and, another thing, I never really left, (surprise!) 'cause I'm them. And as the listeners are scratching their heads trying to figure out exactly how the Son of Man is somehow these people in need, Jesus says to his disciples, "by the way, I (The Son of Man) am about to be crucified." OH, that's how he's the suffering, imprisoned, hungry people.... through the cross. SO... The King on the throne tells the nations that if they want to share his kingdom, they have to help the least-kingly people of all. As Wok of Qld said right off, "Yes, we are warned to be watchful, to be ready for the return of the Lord, but I see this parable as saying that we do that best with our eyes down rather than up ..." Just rambling... K in SC
Date: 18 Nov 2002
Time: 21:43:47
In reference to Pulpitt in ND's account of Jake Porter above, I took our confirmation class to the Willow Creek megachurch last weekend, and the speaker used this very story to illustrate this passage. So others apparently have seen a connection as well. *BKW in IL
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 04:03:10
Asked Michelle, "You're getting dangerously close to saying that we can buy our salvation if only we are committed enough... Is that really what you want to say?"
Nope, and I didn't. I said membership in the church requires commitment. Nothing about salvation.
Blessings, Eric+
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 05:53:57
Michelle -- a longer answer.
I didn't say anything about salvation being a reward for active commitment. I did say that those who are actively committed "MAY" be counted with the sheep. Whether the committed are is up to the king doing the sorting. But the king is pretty clear about the un-committed.
Salvation isn't "bought" by commitment. But salvation needs to be accepted, doesn't it? Isn't that the whole point behind differentiating justification (given by grace and received without merit) and sanctification (accepted by active participation in the kingdom) as two parts of salvation? Isn't that what distinguishes the sheep from the goats? Both a justified, standing before the throne of judgment; the sheep have accepted that, although they may not recognize it; the goats haven't. The king tells them apart. The king may be merciful to goats (I hope he will so I have a chance) but he doesn't go into detail on that in this parable; so I can only preach what's here. "Make a commitment or don't" ... all or nothing. That's what I read. But then I'm a Kierkegaardian, so I tend to read that in most parables of the kingdom.
Blessings, Eric in KS (aka Eric+ ... sometimes I forget where I am).
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 06:22:56
Actually, in the parable, we don't see mercy for the goats, because the king says, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels," and "these will go away into eternal punishment."
I don't like that either, because I am among the sheep and the goats. Sometimes I neglect to do what I know I ought to do, sometimes I can't all that I wish I could (I'm human).
If it is up to me and what I do whether I will be invited to inherit the kingdom, or depart into eternal fire sounds very dangerous to me, and not like the gospel we read elsewhere in the Scriptures.
Mercy, salvation by grace, not easy to see in this parable.
However, mercy on earth is encouraged... by threat anyway...
Michelle
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 07:26:04
I was impressed that this Scripture follows 1st Thess. 5 from last week. Judgement Day is coming. We in the liberal Protestant Church like to gloss over judgement and wrath and concentrate on love, goodness and grace. Last Sunday I preached on those of us who want to look good, see and be seen, and have a "lukewarm Christianity" are in trouble. This Sunday sure seems like a continuation.
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 07:31:10
Good discussion this week. One important factor from Hare in the Interpretation commentary on Matthew: The word "nations" is "gentiles" in Jesus' language. This parable (allegory?) puts forth the shocking and offensive view that there are people outside the community of faith who are destined for salvation. How have they demonstrated their salvation destiny? By their merciful conduct toward the Christ in the guise of "the least of these," the powerless.
In my denomination, (PCUSA) this is a pertinent theological idea as folks argue about the assumptions we take to our interfaith dialogue with the "Unwashed." Many of us say that, respecting God's sovereignty and ability to save whomever God pleases, we must assume we are dealing with people who are saved children of God. Others say that if they haven't yet made their verbal profession of faith, we must assume they are not among the elect. The argument is framed as Christology by some who insist that salvation is exclusively for those who have made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, and as the Sovereignty of God by those who insist that God can save whomever God chooses.
From this passage, it seems there is another way to approach the question. Jesus says (via Matthew) that there are those outside the community of faith ("gentiles") who, whether they have heard the word rightly proclaimed or not, have made their profession of faith through their acts of mercy.
Preaching this passage in this way would lead me to challenge the congregation (and myself) to do two things at least: treat everyone as a child of God regardless of their membership or lack thereof in the Christian community of faith; and, to profess faith in Christ with acts of mercy as well as words.
Peace, Neill in TX P.S. Eric, glad you got some time off. You sounded like I do when I need it!
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 08:48:45
I really enjoyed the story about Jake Porter. I listened to Paul Harvery yesterday and he mentioned a story about a truck driver from the northeast who had been very concerned about the sniper attacks as they were occuring in the D.C. area. He got on his CB and set up a prayer meeting at a truck stop. About 50 truckers showed up and prayed about the situation. A week later when the supects stoped at a rest area, that trucker happened to be there. He recognized the car from description the police had given and was able to take his truck and block the exit and prevent their escape. An incredible story. My thought is: Why can't life be like this all the time? We need more experiences like Jakes where teams and opposing teams reach for a higher goal and achieve a level of caring and concern that we all too often fail to experience in life. Why can't we have more people who will stop and pray and then when the opportunity presents itself, put their prayers and concerns into action and help stop something horrific that has been happening?
As I read this text I am forced to discover that God has expectations for us. He expects us to do on a daily basis what Jake's team did for him and what a trucker did at a rest area. What ever our thoughts may be about sheep and goats two things are evident to me in this story. The sheep seem to answer with innocent surprise. Their acts of kindness and charity came naturally. It came from a trasformation of grace in their hearts. They didn't seem to be looking for fame, glory, or any kind of reward. They did not do what they did from any legalistic obligation. They did what they did and were happy to do it. The goats on the other hand were simple olblivious to the needs of other around them. This says a lot to me about how serious God looks at the sins of omission. The goats just didn't do anything. It's not that they were bad, so to speak, or overgrazed or undergrazed or whatever. They just never saw the needs of others. If you put this in terms of people, the goats were good people. But they were good people who did nothing. The old saying is: All that needs to happen for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.
Following the lectionary, the man with one talent did nothing with it. He didn't waste his talent, he was honest and gave it back to his master, but in the end he did nothing with it.
I need to discover in my own life the places where I do nothing when I could be doing something. For me to think that God expects nothing from me is foolish thinking. He expects kindness, consideration, and service.
I haven't written is a while. I just had my second surgery for the removal of a brain tumor. All is well. David in LA.
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 10:55:46
Gosh, David, and I ws about to complain about feeling too tired to work today (I was supposed to be off but someone got sick and since I've got to go to the hospital, anyhow, I thought I'd go ahead and check in). Glad you're doing well.
For the Christ the King/Sovereignty of Christ day, I think Eric has hit it on the head. It's entirely up to Christ, but part of our judgment will be whether we grew in faith (if I can "methodistize" your post). Not about WHAT we did, or whether we had, like Mother Teresa, to see the face of God in every hurting person, but that we acted out of our overflowing cup (a relationship with the Incarnate).
I don't want to gloss over the very real eschatology or the judgment - but I also want to be true to it. And therein lies the problem and the whole point of the sovereignty of Christ: human beings cannot by their very nature, being the created rather than Creator, define either God or God's actions precisely. Words are finite and, while we can describe the infinite, we have to acknowledge that our finite words are limited. Mixture of Tillich, Kierkegaard, and others ... and here's a bit of just me being tired and a bit flaky - I've always thought that there were three kinds of words: spoken word, written word, Incarnate Word. It's the relationship of the Incarnate to the spoken and written that gives it life.
The very paradox is that we have to put into spoken words the relationship of the written (scripture) and Incarnate words and trust him to speak. Being a pastor is like walking on a tightrope sometimes -easy to fall into one of two sins: not speaking prophetically because we know that we can't know for sure all about God - and on the other hand, speaking too prophetically and claiming "knowledge" where none may be. Praise Jesus, that he is King!
Ok - I'm really burnt so I'll keep further comments to myself. Off to the hospital.
Sally
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 11:23:39
Tom and others re "incognito" / "hidden" ---
I found myself adding to this string the phrase "the nature of history." History is not without its veils, and our "seeing through a glass darkly." At this point Matthew 25:31-46 became an exploration of our international geo-political moment:
A nation's self-interest is paramount in the evolution of a nation's policy.
This truism leads me to say that the tragic character of history is apparent when "self-interest" is identified, be it at what ever level --- personal, tribal, ethnic, class, community, region, national, etc. --- for simultaneously now identified is the reality of sin and the fall. In the mix of this resides grace as a redemptive reality while yet within the historical realities, "unpurified!" and "seeing through the glass darkly!" None of us operate free of self interest.
Nor, is the role of force to be denied in the meeting of a communities needs, which includes its poor and marginalized. Without the use of force in the context of tryanny and militant fanaticism, the needs of the poor and the imprisoned and the hungry cannot be met and in fact their needs will be even greater. Restraining the tryants and the fanatics grants us another day, another opportunity to continue assessing our own house and the amendments we also need to make in regard to our policy and behavior toward the poor and the marginalized. The possibility for a better day for all is kept open, history is kept open, redemption remains a live option.
I share these preparatory thoughts out loud, enroute toward a better day, and making ready a place for the Lord's coming among us, and even more, for "next year, Jerusalem!"
Limping toward Christian Realism,Shalom Ron in Louisiana
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 11:24:11
Tom and others re "incognito" / "hidden" ---
I found myself adding to this string the phrase "the nature of history." History is not without its veils, and our "seeing through a glass darkly." At this point Matthew 25:31-46 became an exploration of our international geo-political moment:
A nation's self-interest is paramount in the evolution of a nation's policy.
This truism leads me to say that the tragic character of history is apparent when "self-interest" is identified, be it at what ever level --- personal, tribal, ethnic, class, community, region, national, etc. --- for simultaneously now identified is the reality of sin and the fall. In the mix of this resides grace as a redemptive reality while yet within the historical realities, "unpurified!" and "seeing through the glass darkly!" None of us operate free of self interest.
Nor, is the role of force to be denied in the meeting of a communities needs, which includes its poor and marginalized. Without the use of force in the context of tryanny and militant fanaticism, the needs of the poor and the imprisoned and the hungry cannot be met and in fact their needs will be even greater. Restraining the tryants and the fanatics grants us another day, another opportunity to continue assessing our own house and the amendments we also need to make in regard to our policy and behavior toward the poor and the marginalized. The possibility for a better day for all is kept open, history is kept open, redemption remains a live option.
I share these preparatory thoughts out loud, enroute toward a better day, and making ready a place for the Lord's coming among us, and even more, for "next year, Jerusalem!"
Limping toward Christian Realism,Shalom Ron in Louisiana
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 12:44:06
Bill Loader has an interesting piece, a meditation based on a dream, entitled "Enlightenment of a Goat" ....
http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/goat.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 13:17:54
Enlightenment of a goat is inspirational, thanks Eric.
Michelle
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 13:39:34
I like many of you am also struck by the innocence or lack of realizing on the part of the righteous and unrighteous... It does seem like what they did they did naturally, without thinking of their salvation(for better or for worse). And yet what is the purpose of this apocalyptic parable if not to WAKE US UP? So that we do realize that caring for the least of these is what our King values and consciously put our faith in action and work to see Christ in places where we'd lest expect to see him. KB in AB
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 16:07:54
Last night on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Canadian TV, eh!)there was the story of the butler of Princess Diana (still a very newsworthy and controversial figure in the U.K. and her Majesty's outlying lands...) The Butler, Paul Burrell, is being accused of stealing some of Diana's pelongings after her death, by her family. IN the interview, the butler talks frankly about how he served Diana, who had requested him, her "rock" as she called him, as the payout when she seperated from Prince Charles. I want Paul, she said. And she got him. He says that she took him into his confidence, that he shared all her trials with her during the marriage breakdown. He fed her,laid out her clothes for her, he smuggled her friends into the castle, he waited on her hand and foot. The last words Diana said to Paul Burrell, her butler, when they parted the night before the fateful car crash in Paris: Promise that you'll be there for me. He was going to England ahead of her to inform her two sons that she'd be coming a day later than planned and to get things ready for her arrival.
Paul Burrell says that he took some of Diana's possessions into his safe keeping because her estranged and hostile family was more or less looting her castle and destroying much of her correspondence. He felt it was in the best interest of her sons, princes Harry and William, that he take what he can on their behalf... The verdict is still out, but he has my sympathy.
What does this have to do with our text? Royal service! We are butler to HIs Highness, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He told us to get ready for his arrival, to care for his offspring, the "least of these members of my family" and to be there "for him". He is asking us to be "his rock", to be dependable, a confidant, a discreet and committed servant, a person who can always be relied upon... People say that they don't want the poor to become "dependant on our charity". This is often used as an excuse for doing nothing. Jesus never said anything against making people dependent on us or himself, for that matter. He said "The poor you will always have with you." In fact dependence is the mark of faith, isn't it? Jesus is our rock, his love didn't stop short of the cross. God can be relied on, the rock or our salvation...Jesus says: Be that rock for the poor, hungry, homeless, sick, imprisoned, immigrant etc...
The verdict is still out on butler Paul Burrell. The verdict is still out on the butlers of the KIng of Kings and LOrd of Lords. Would that the final judgement will be: Come, you that are blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Maybe it will preach better here in the Dominion of Canada. There are two more interviews with Paul Burrell Tuesday and Wednesday nights, if you can access the CBC. Or you might find something under www.cbc.ca...
Cheers! Markus in Calgary
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 17:20:14
Michelle & Eric,
The issue of commitment has nothing to do with earning salvation. Commitment is a response to the divine grace and salvific work of Christ. It's not unlike a spouse's commitment to her/his spouse. One doesn't "do for" one's spouse in hopes of earning love. One acts out one's commitment to the spouse out of love to that spouse and as a response to the spouse for the love the spouse has given. I think if we turned to the marriage metaphors we might get a better sense of commitment. It can be a tight-rope walk for some, but comitment is a response, not a bribe.
Steve in NC
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 19:36:26
I like the discussion on the separation of the Goats and the sheep, and especially KC in SC's discussion on tying the discussion to the prior parables of judgement. I have always thought of this passage as reminding us all how much Jesus identifies himself with us. So much that he says, "Whenever you do this to the least of these, you do it unto me." It is why Mother Teresa could go out on the streets of Calcutta each day, because she saw the face of Jesus on every leper, or street person. But the whole idea of being prepared, of not knowing when He will come, thus treating everyone with love and compassion, because Jesus identifies with them is a powerful image. That He identifies with them and died for them and rose for them, in the same way that he identifies with us. I'm still wrestling with the idea that was also mentioned that the Hebrews didn't favor the sheep over the goats, with the end of this parable when the Goats are cast out, and thrown into eternal punishment because they didn't do it to the least of these my brethren." That sounds like favoritism to me!! Susan in Wa.
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 20:24:00
Steve said, "The issue of commitment has nothing to do with earning salvation."
I repeat, I didn't say anything about "earning" anymore than I said anything about "buying" salvation. I said church membership takes commitment and accepting the freely offered gift is done through commitment. I agree, it's not about earning ... it is about responding.
Sheesh!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 21:30:26
Someone questioned how neither the sheep nor the goats realized what they had done. I heard this passage preached by one of our lay speakers who shared an interesting perspective. His take on it was that for Christ's sheep, doing the Christlike thing had become so second-nature that they didn't even remember doing it. What a goal for which to ascribe! I think he had an excellent point. I'd be a pretty successful pastor if I didn't even have to think about doing the things I ought. -- Rich in Bama
Date: 19 Nov 2002
Time: 22:17:47
What does God look like? Did I pass God when I passed the guys on main street? Is God really in jail? Is God really one of the single moms looking for clothes in our thrift shop? There is no doubt, I would treat these people better if I thought they were God. Brent in Pincher
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 06:05:06
Because neither the sheep or the goats recognize Christ in those who stand before them as neighbor as the Christ how can they be held accountable?
Now that we behold the Christ, because of this parable, in those who are before us how can we help them without self concern?
Do I show compassion because I wish to sit on God's right hand, in God's kingdom; or do I show compassion because I can do no other?
It is interesting that with the Gospel for All Saints Day we heard something about "Purity of Heart" and now we are tested to see if the "one thing necessary" has taken possession of us, otherwise when I reach out to those in need I am simply "doubleminded" eager to be counted as one of the elect.
tom in ga
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 10:06:32
We spend entirely too much time and energy trying to figure out who the sheep are and who the goats are. The whole point is that no one knows.
Barbara Brown Taylor has a sermon on this (can't remember the title, sorry) which says that we're all goats in one way or another. My "goat" side is judgmentalism of the LaHaye/Wilkinson/name-it crowd. It's the side that DOES pass by a person in need - even for practical reasons (like sometimes I run around flat broke). It's the side that gets jealous and the side that likes being a noisy gong. It's my goat side that tries to identify sheep and goats. But then, i run the risk of making this something of a point system - how many goat points v. how many sheep points we have accrued at the judgment, and I DON'T want to say THAT.
Praise God, Christ "gets my goat." and covers it with grace. I think the title will be "How Jesus Gets Our Goat."
If we experience Christ as King then we let go of the need to replace ourselves and our own definitions with his. We become like (notice the word LIKE) the God we adore, so it behooves us to make some effort to examine the God whom we adore and why we adore him. If our understanding is purely of a sheep/goat reward/punishment God, then we will be sheep/goat, reward/punishment witnesses.
Sally in GA (still burnt-feeling)
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 10:10:18
Each year the rabbi would take two weeks for rest and meditation with the monks of the Holy Order of Christ the King. The monks were dedicated to sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ through action and not through words. They therefore had taken a vow of complete silence. For the rabbi the time with the monks was wonderful. They cooked for him, they cared for his clothing and they allowed him to pray and meditate with them in his own way. One year when the rabbi showed up at thier doors the Abbot met him and broke his vow of silence for the first time. The Abbot said, "My brother I am afriad we to tell you that this will be the last year we will be able to recieve you. Our order is falling apart. We are preparing to close our doors. We have lost our support and we have lost our focus on serving Christ our King." The Rabbi understood and offered to pray for the future of thier order and spent the week doing just that. As he prepared to leave at the end of his time with them the rabbi said to the abbot, "It is a shame that this place is closing down for the Messiah lives among you. I wonder where he will go next." The abbot was shocked at this statement. "The messiah lives among us?" he asked Yes, said the rabbi, this is why i have returned year after year. the Messiah is here among you.
The abbot thanked him for the news and then ran to tell the other brothers. With this news things began to change around that place. The brothers began to treat each other with a bit more patience. they prayed a bit longer for each other and focused less upon thier own prayers or needs. AS they grew in thier service towards one another they expanded to serving the small towns that surrounded thier land. Soon they had to build a larger building to house the new brothers that had come to join them. As they grew the rabbi continued to come and join them each year rejoicing with them in thier relationship with the messiah.
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 10:51:23
Eric, You are just so "right to the point!" Sometimes I wonder if the lack of commitment in the church is due to our fear of not be re-appointed--or whatever other traditions do. Do we preach with "Holy Boldness?" Do we preach with..."I'd like to say this, but the Pastor/Parish Relations Committee will have my head?" I laughed aloud when I read your post because it certainly struck home. lp in CO
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 11:02:52
Eric in KS,
First I must apologize. I failed to type the first paragraph that was in my head. At the hour I was reading this, I assumed you all could hear me shout, NO MICHELLE, ERIC DIDN'T SAY THAT!
I agree with what you wrote in your earlier post. I was trying to support and "affirm" your stance. I guess I didn't communicate that too well. Maybe that's why I get the glazed over look on some Sundays. (ha!)
Sorry Eric, I should have said more clearly that your view of commitment is "right on!" It's something I preach often at our church. Sadly, I see more commitment in parents getting their children to soccer or basketball, in members of the local civic organizations and fire department, etc than I see in the church. Miss one of those meetings, fail to show up for practice, or to pay dues and YOU'RE OUT of the group.
Again, Eric, I agree with you and I apologize for coming off the wrong way!!
Steve in NC
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 11:04:52
Steve in NC
You said, "commitment is a response, not a bribe." Amen. I agree. I also like your marriage analogy, which is covenant language as used in the Bible as well. However, this parable doesn't get us there, we need to leap (backwards, maybe?) in order to get to the why of commitment. This parable does read like a warning, maybe to inspire commitment that will become second nature in the long run.
Just like different people prefer different ways of learning, some people require threat in order to respond. I know some people who can't study unless they are cramming for the test. Others can't cram, they need to work on small amounts throughout the term. The threat of this parable may work in some way like the announcement of the test. Some see no warning, because they have been responding all along. Others wake up, and start cramming. Either way, people are served with acts of mercy in response to Christ's love, or Christ's warning, and that may be the intent of the parable, MERCY!!!
Michelle
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 11:07:11
Sally in ga
I love your title, "How Jesus Gets Your Goat!"
Inspired!
Michelle
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 11:20:10
Dear Friends; some seem to be making this passage too diffucult. the works / grace dichotomy is present in the new testament (see james vs. paul, etc.) Yet so are the teachings of Christ himself, who at once proclaims confession of faith and being born again will save us; and at another time (like today's passage) that our actions are what will make the difference in how we are judged. It cannot be either / or. Our western minds are way too uncomfortable with paradox. Eastern minds are not at all. Here is what I think the parable (Jesus' made - up story) means:
Christians who think they have automatic access into heaven because of what they say they believe, will be surprised when they find out there is a different standard than that. God is going to receive those who have given themselves to others, in generous acts of mercy. We serve God without knowing it, when we care for the hungry and needy of the world. To truly honor Christ as king, we must serve our neighbors.
Jeff in NY
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 11:44:06
With trepidation I wade into the discussion about demanding more commitment from the congregants. I'm concerned we are erring on the same side as did the Pharisees, who equated religious adherance with "Kingdom" living. They had their criteria for who was in and who was out. Acts of mercy were probably not a big part of their criteria. I find it refreshing that this parable says, pretty creatively and clearly, that religious adherance and religious practices don't count for a hill of beans compared to acts of mercy. We in the pulpit, I think, have to be careful we don't sneak in guilt for not being committed to more of the church's agenda, unless the church's agenda is wholly about acts of mercy. Anyway, the judgment might be more on nations, and on corporations and economies, than it is on the individual pew-sitter (Though we are a part of nations and economies). Brent in Pincher
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 12:02:50
Sounds to me like Michelle and Steve and I really agree -- we just use different words. How much of the world is like that? Huh? Even here ... we all agree that the last Sunday after Pentecost is dedicated to the universal sovereignty of Jesus Christ -- but we have different names for the feast, some of us call it "Christ the King" -- some call it "The Reign of Christ" -- some call it "Proper 29" or "34th Sunday of Ordinary Time" or whatever. And we get very attached to our words...
Anyway, I want to share some words with you. I had one of those have-to-sit-down-for-a-moment-so-grab-something-to-read occasions this morning and what I grabbed was the April-June 2002 issue of "The Living Pulpit", which is dedicated to "The City". In it is an essay entitled "Poetry in the City" by Edwine Gateley. She talks about her ministry to prostitutes and street people in Chicago.
Among her concluding paragraphs are these:
"I came to understand that, one way or another, we are all broken. That none of us is God. That we must simply be where we are called to be and do the best we can, no matter what, and leave the rest to God. Trust. The fruit is God's business. Ours the labor and the call to faithfulness. That is all. That is the greatest and best thing we can do.
"So I ended up having to let go of my dreams, my hopes, my plans, my longing to save and heal. All I could really do was love. And so I loved. Fiercely.
"Mezzie [an addicted prostitute she had worked with] wrote me a letter, a beautiful letter: 'If I die, remember that I knew - you loved me.'
"Mezzie did die. She was 36. She knew that I loved her. I saw it in her eyes as she lay dying. She was beautiful.
"Beauty in the city ... the city where I had found all and more than I had left behind."
---- Continued in next posting -----
More coming, Eric in KS
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 12:03:39
---- Continuing -- it made me truncate the post ---
After concluding her essay, Gately adds her poem "Disiple of Jesus" (published in "I Hear a Seed Growing", Sources Books): (double // means a line break since we can't actually do poetry here, darn it)
"Disciple of Jesus, weary and silent, // aware in the darkness, of challenges failed // and longings unfilled, // remembering the passion that sent you forth, // young and bright and fired with hope. // How is it with you now? //
"Disciple of Jesus, weary and silent, // world unchanged, its darkness still deep, // dreams dispelled and visions blurred, // How is it with you now? //
"Trailing behind me the sparkle of fire // of early passion, // bruised and tender from love's long thrust, // now is the finest, greatest moment, // and now the ultimate death, // For I, disciple of Jesus, // to stand before my God, // weary and deeply silent, // claiming only, // I was there."
Wow! Did that grab me by the throat and say, "That is how we will all stand, sheep and goats, before our God, "weary and deeply silent, claiming only, I was there." And he will know which of us really were and which of us, being there, actually did something ... we won't even know that ourselves!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 12:03:47
20 NOV 02
Thanks, Jeff (last entry I see posted to date). And usually I'm pretty good about living with paradox, but this is surely one of those frustrating weeks. A bit of trivia (perhaps) and then evidence of the struggle many of us are voicing this week: "All the NATIONS will be gathered..." Remember that "nations/ethnos" often had to do with either the non-Jews or later, I suppose, the non-Christians, i.e., the pagens. So, interesting possibility to consider that this text and judgement and surprise(s) have to do with the many in the world who are non-Christian/Jewish/Muslim (mono-theist?). Among these many, there are sheep and goats? But it's not isogetical, I don't think, to apply the parable to us, even our congregations. So, sheep are just sheep and goats are just goats, neither of them self-aware, neither of them obviously "keeping score" of good deeds done or left undone. I appreciate the marriage and other analogies--keep `em coming, because I've been searching for the ideal image forever. The image which illustrates the theology we're pretty much agreeing upon: We don't gain salvation by works... but our works somehow ("naturally?" Explain that!) smiply flow out of who we are. One little clue is in the "inheritance" business in vs. 34: Granted, occasionally someone "writes a child out of a will", but the upshot of the inheritance is it's about the givers desire/"nature"(?) to give, and not the receivers merit. Having one biological and one adopted child, the image is clarified. When our adoption was finalized, we went before a judge and vowed verbally and in writing that we would grant to our new (and "official") child all "rights including inheritance" (actually, have to double check the decree for wording). We had no idea about his personality traits, etc., yet the commitment is made. And so God claims us. Now, as children of God, not we "ought, must, have to" do so and so to win/earn inheritance, but the inheritance is granted because that's the kind of God who has us. We GET to act as members of that household of faith, and probably will be surprised at the ways we've served most simply and faithfully. Peter in WI
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 12:13:11
Brent said, "I find it refreshing that this parable says, pretty creatively and clearly, that religious adherance and religious practices don't count for a hill of beans compared to acts of mercy."
Exactly!!! Two weeks ago we had a reading from Amos in which God says through that prophet, "I hate your festivals and solemn assemblies; I won't listen to your songs and your melodies; I won't receive your sacrifices." Instead, what Amos says God wants to see is "justice rolling down like waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream." What I told my people then is that showing up in church for an hour a week doesn't (as Brent puts it) amount to a hill of beans!
Showing up at church is NOT the sort of commitment I'm talking about! For pity's sake, they do that! It's commitment to the justice-peace-mercy part that's needed.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 12:15:26
By the way ... I'll bet the "goats" in the judgement story were really committed to religious ritual, showing up at church (temple), burning the right sort candles, saying the right sort of prayers, etc..... There are probably a lot of "goats" amongst our very best (and favorite) parishioners. (Now there's a scary thought, eh?)
Blessings (again), Eric in KS
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 21:32:06
Sorry to all those bean farmers out there.
By the way Eric, I tried to access your sermon two weeks ago and could not. I would have like to.
I want to contribute something, which I think is profound, in one of William Bausch's sermon books. Let me quote it: "Well, obviously, the gospel, which is a gospel of judgment, calls for some kind of a response. And there is one, one given context by an experience I had years ago when I visited Germany and its Dachua prison. That prison, now a museum to horror and spirit, is filled with photographs; one of the most moving is that of the gas chamber at Auschwitz. In the photograph a little girl is walking in front of her mother and doesn't know where she is going. The mother who walks behind her knows but there is nothing, absolutely nothing, she can do to prevent this tragedy. So in her helplessness, the mother performs the only act of love that is left to her. She places her hand over the little girls's eyes so she cannot see the approaching horror. As I gazed with others at the picture someone behind me cried out, "Oh, God, don't let this be all that there is. Somehow, somewhere, set things right!"
I don't like the idea of a judgmental God. But I do like the idea of a God who judges, that is, of a God who is not ok with this incident above and who seeks, even through people, to set things right. I guess the question on my mind is; how do we come to terms with a God who judges? Is this good news? Brent in Pincher
Date: 20 Nov 2002
Time: 21:39:45
Brent: You can find that sermon directly (rather than going through the parish website and sermon archive index) using this URL
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/proper27-a-rcl-2002.htm
Hope there's something there you can use.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 00:16:09
I stumbled across this link and have enjoyed the discussion.
I am currently living in the Desert of Kuwait (Chaplain) (desertrougefrg.org)
I have witnessed "shepherds" (Bedouins sp?) and their sheep, goats, and camels on numerous occasions. They seem to go where the "scrub grass" is...they wander. I have seen the "shepherd" running after the sheep/goats/camels when they stray away from the herd. I have also seen camels in "shackles" so they wouldn't get away.
I have also seen tiny groups 2-3 huddled together, dead. Most likely scenario...they wandered off and died from the hostile environment.
As his "Beloved, Chosen, Children" What is our responsibility to the hurting world around us? What is the implied task for those who are following Christ? What is our responsibility to the goats? What is our responsibility to one another?
"Peter, do you love me? 'Yes Lord, you know that I love you.' "Feed my lambs."
It seems to me that there is an implicit intent for us to care for one another. If we are in Christ, then we have responsibility to God's children, i.e. humanity.
Rogue Cross
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 04:31:35
There's some really good stuff this week. It's amazing how a tough lection brings out the best.
The Catholic Lectionary uses Ezekiel 34:11-12, 15-17 for the first reading but the RCL uses Ezekiel 34:11-16, 20-24. Verse 17 uses the same metaphor of separating sheep from goats in judgement. " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats."
I think it would be worth while for all of us to read Ezekial 34 entirely. It surely looks like Jesus was drawing from this earlier scripture.
Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 06:37:11
The discussion has been inspiring everyone,but it always is. I don't know if this will help as an illustration but here it is for what it's worth. In early years of singleness and beginning in the ministry as a youth director, I rented a room from her. Precious lady filled with love and faith in Jesus. She and I would get into "theological" discussions sometimes since she was predominantly Southern Baptist and I am a United Methodist things could get real interesting. She could always come up with some of the funniest sayings. One day she and well,were in one of our discussions and she noticed I was a little exasperated when she said, "I got your goat.' What do you mean?,I replied. She continued, " I got your goat because I found out where you tied him." If this doesn't help, it's just a little humor for the day. Peace, Airch54 in SC
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 06:38:10
The discussion has been inspiring everyone,but it always is. I don't know if this will help as an illustration but here it is for what it's worth. In early years of singleness and beginning in the ministry as a youth director, I rented a room from her. Precious lady filled with love and faith in Jesus. She and I would get into "theological" discussions sometimes since she was predominantly Southern Baptist and I am a United Methodist things could get real interesting. She could always come up with some of the funniest sayings. One day she and well,were in one of our discussions and she noticed I was a little exasperated when she said, "I got your goat.' What do you mean?,I replied. She continued, " I got your goat because I found out where you tied him." If this doesn't help, it's just a little humor for the day. Peace, Airch54 in SC
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 07:25:35
As some of my friends in another setting are fond of saying, this is a simple program. Feed the hungry, console those who are hurting, clothe the naked... . K.I.S.S. Keep it simple sweetheart (I know we learned something other than sweetheart, but I don't like to be too demeaning when I have a choice). And remeber -- simple does not mean easy.
peace, Brian in MN
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 07:26:22
As some of my friends in another setting are fond of saying, this is a simple program. Feed the hungry, console those who are hurting, clothe the naked... . K.I.S.S. Keep it simple sweetheart (I know we learned something other than sweetheart, but I don't like to be too demeaning when I have a choice). And remeber -- simple does not mean easy.
peace, Brian in MN
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 07:51:24
My approach to the sermon this Sunday will be to draw the distinction between charity and justice. Each is important and each is a different response to the needs of our world. In charity, we literally do what this passage calls us to do- feed the hungry, visit the sick, clothe the naked. It is how the heart responds to the needs of another.
With justice, one asks 'Why are people hungry?' 'Why does someone live on the streets?' 'What has caused this sickness (war, poverty, hatred, hunger, bitterness, anger...) in our world?' We attempt to understand and hopefully find the way to faithfully change the roots of the systemic problem. It is, I think, how the soul responds to the needs of another.
The distinction works for this Sunday in particular because we mark the day as 'Christ the King' Sunday. It is a day we can look forward in the hope that all will made right in God's time- death is overcome and justice reigns. I think we are being called, by the day on the church calendar and by this scripture, to be people of the heart and soul- making a difference today with acts of charity and making a difference tomorrow with our vision of the Kingdom of God.
I intend to say that this 'Second Coming', which the end of our litergical year places before us to consider on this particular day, arrives when we, as a church, take seriously Paul's vision to become the body of Christ for the world as a movement inspired to charity and as a force for lasting change in the world.
As for the reward/punishments of Heaven and Hell in the reading for this Sunday- we have people all around us who live with a very real hell (and some that have a pretty sweet heaven) everyday. There is enough heaven and hell in this world for us to wrestle with without wasting time worrying about what God may or may not have waiting for us beyond death. I'll trust in God's grace to sort out the after death stuff. My task to to do my imperfect best to do the work I am called to do in the here and now.
I know this is long- but one final observation. A retired pastor of mine sent me this thought about Kingdomtide- We are celebrating the hope of the arrival of Christ just before we begin the new season to begin the preparation of our hearts for Christ's birth. We grow from anticipation to anticipation as we move from season to season.
My apologies for my verbosity! TB in MN
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 10:17:17
I rather like II Tim. 2:11-13 (admittedly, 11 AND 13 best!) with regard to living in the reign of Christ the King: "The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful--for he cannot deny himself." Peter in WI
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 11:45:55
Thanks everyone for your insights.
Good to hear from Kuwait!!!
Thanks Eric for the link!
I don't have the guts to do it, but instead of "John 3:16," I've often wanted to go to a football game with a poster that said "Matthew 25:31-46." Brent in Pincher
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 12:36:10
While I wish to Keep things simple (KISS), I hesitate before making this pericope into a text on doing good things for people in need. Anyone can do something good for someone in need, but not all of those can be necessarily identified as "sheep" in the end. The point is we won't know - however much or little charitable work we;ve done, and however much or little proper religious rituals we've sat through (I've got a woman I refer to as the "Proper Police" or "Proper Officer" even in my UM church).
My caveat is simple: don't make the mistake of turning the text around and identifying either the sheep or the goats as ANY category of Christian. Jesus is telling us that we just don't know who's who. We're ignorant.
But I seem to be the only one going in this vein -
Sally in GA
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 12:48:44
Oh - the talk about "proper religious rituals" (or however it was put by Eric and others) ...
Interesting that as one of my subpoints in the category is about adorning the altar as a demonstration of our intimacy with the One whom we adore. I've been trying to encourage these folks to be more demonstrative and engaged in worship and in their homes, and I'll also be encouraging them to set up a home altar. It's about intimacy & righteousness, not distance and right-ness.
We all have our Proper Officers, I'm sure. It reveals a relationship with God based on, I believe, deep-down fear. A fear that if we're somehow NOT proper, God will smite us. Oh, how I want so much more for people, to know and love the Jesus I love - to know true reverence AND true intimacy.
Sally in GA
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 13:27:10
It is getting late into the preparation of the homily, but I thought it would be helpful (I have shared this in past years) to reflect on Saint Bernard's "Three Advents." What is most helpful is that this idea places this Gospel within the context of the Liturgical Year looking back at last Advent and looking forward to the First Sunday of Advent.
The First Advent recalls the birthing of Christ, God entering into our history, coming to seek and save the lost, the Good Shepherd.
The Second Advent is medius Adventus. It is the time of OUR visitation. The end of all things is to be found in the midst of our daily life. The presence of Jesus is to be found in the hungry, thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the sick, and those in prison. We are judged by our awareness or lack of awarenss of his passing through our world and through our own lives in this time of anquish, this vale of tears. This hidden Advent proclaims the day of the Lord in the midst of our present life (Now is the day of salvation!)
We cannot perceive with our physical eye the sign of the presence of Christ, and only aw we reach towrd the stranger with compassion are we in his presence. This presence looks like an absence, a presence that goes unnoticed even for those who have direct contact with it.
The Third Advent remembers the future, embraces the Second Coming, Christ coming to judge the quick and the dead, when God will be all in all. This is the fulfillment of life.
tom in ga
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 14:12:30
When were you Hungry Lord? When were you thirsty Lord? When did you need clothing? Actually, this is a pretty good sermon for thanksgiving...although I am using the thanksgiving day passages Sunday...
This time of Year how many of our Churches do the "give to the food pantry, shelter routine" Give Money, give clothes and Give Food... That's our answer solve it that way! Well, that don't cut it with God...All those things are good... But, those places need Volunteers too...sorting clothes, summer to winter, going through and only taking the better, unfortunately (and my mom finds this out she runs a mission project) It is unreal trash people give! Someone gave clothes with rat dung in it. Someone brought wet mildewy clothes. Someone brought kerosene soaked clothes. Well, let's give it you them attitude... It is important to give to outreaches... However, Don't give trash...Jesus could add and say separate the Goats-sheeps because you did not give what you yourself would eat and wear!
So, Preachers, as I close, this holiday season take these scriptures and words to heart Tell you people when you do give to shelters and missions, put yourself in the place of reciever...think would I really like to wear my outdated polylestor 1960's stuff, would I like to wear mildewed clothing... Would I like to eat an oddity can of food, not staples... Would I if I were one food assistance and know can buy food but can't afford hygiene products...would I like those... Sorry to rant...
Ladypastor in OHIO
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 14:17:51
First off...Perhaps the seperation of goats and sheep isn't exactly a judgment but just placing animals in their appropriate groups according to their "Gifts".
And perhaps by Deke's infor...pastors should not be "pastors" but "goats"
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 14:19:34
If any of you would like to make a donation of food, hygiene products, school supplies or winter coats clothes, christmas toys, shoeboxes for kids,
Please write, email. or call my mother (who I my so proud of in the Lord, She reflects Suzanna Wesley as to my life): GOOD NEWS OUTREACH Mrs. Rebecca Cyrus P.O. Box 12 Meadow Bridge, WV 25976 1-304-484-6106 or 484-7952 missionlady_becka@yahoo.com
Rebecca is a church leader and District officer, spiritual growth- for her United Methodist Women Unit, and certified lay speaker, oh and one of the those des colores people(EMMAUS WALK)
I felt a leading to post this, some church any denomination, may be searching for a Christmas blessing
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 14:57:21
"....pastors should not be 'pastors' but 'goats'..."
Nah. Clergy should be sheep-dogs. But we've been there before.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 15:21:11
Or maybe Llamas.... I preached about that once.
But I suppose most of us are really frogs (I preached about one of those once, too).
Just musing on a Thursday evening waiting for my spouse to return from work so we can have dinner....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 17:58:16
Maybe Pastors should be Great Pyrenees dogs. These dogs lay down their life for their charges whether sheep or goats. One of ours went to a lady whose herd was being attacked by some kind of cat. Debbie lost some kids and some adults received serious gouges on their backs. Shortly after our young adult Pyr, Katie, went to live with her she earned her keep nearly to death. It was a large bob cat and Katie received severe wounds that took many stitches but she defeated the enemy and the herd was safe.
I have so many stories about these dogs. Ours act like obedience school valedictorians on a lead- but reform school drop outs otherwise. What is seen as stubbornness is really necessary. If they were docile they would never be able to do the job required of them.
Deke in TX – Pace e Bene
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 19:59:29
TB in MN, thanks for your thoughts on charity vs. justice. I really found that helpful.
I remember hearing, once, that at the Garden of Gethsemane in Israel, beggars don't beg when pilgrims are going into visit the Garden of Gethsemane, they beg when the tourists are coming out. They know that they have been "in a costly place" and are more likely to give once they come out. Similarily, charities send out their requests at this time of year, because they know Christians, and people in general, are more likely to give this time of year. It is interesting for me that this parable comes right before Advent begins. We who study this parable this Sunday will have been "to a costly place." I know I was nicer to a man this week because I said to myself before I met him (he was a street person) "remember, you are about to meet God." The parable affected me, and I liked the affect. Brent in Pincher
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 20:55:30
To Eric in KS,
I just read your post about wanting to preach a sermon that will cost you your job. Remember that Jesus preached a sermon and many of His followers got up and left (John 6:60-66). We have to be ready to preach sermons like that as well as ones like Peter's appeal in Jerusalm that caused many to come to Christ. God's word has that effect on people (Hebrews 4:12). Preach it, brother!
BJM Col. 3:23
Date: 21 Nov 2002
Time: 22:44:02
its pretty awesome to have a website like this that will cater to the needs of a novice pracher like me..thank you..
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 01:31:54
Good and helpful discussion, thanks to all. I'd like to return to the discussion abour grace and faith etc. I wonder whether Jesus is (again) pointing a finger at religious people, and saying soemthing like ... To be accepted by God is not about how good we are, but how good God is ( that's not from this parable, but from Paul!) ... but this salvation that is entirely by grace must be accepted by faith (also Paul) ..... BUT ... faith is not an intellectual acceptance of a set of doctrines, or adherence to correct theology; it is not a passive thing. In other words faith is not primarily a thing of the mind, but a total thing that affects the whole of life - especially determining who we worship, and how we live in relation to others. Genuine faith is on the look out for how this life is to be lived, and worked out. genuine faith is an active thing. We know that of course, but maybe that is all that Jesus us saying in response to a some religious people who are always going oin about rules and correct doctrine (and don't we have enough of those today)
Rev Ev in Bev
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 06:52:34
Dear Friends, I would like to share my sermon with you for this Sunday for your feedback. At least two of you got quoted and I hope I gave the proper credit. You jump straight to the sermon with the link http://www.rfci.net/bagpiper/20021124.htm. This sermon seeks to lift up Jesus' position, place and power on Christ the King Sunday. I have downplayed the other end of the judgement regarding the righteous and the unrighteous though it is still a big theme. I appreciate this format an your participation in the discussions. Grace and peace. Mike in NC.
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 06:57:29
To toss out a little bit different approach to the passage, as a somewhat younger preacher, I am keenly aware of how my generation often is actively looking for God but ends up looking in all the wrong places. Here, Jesus tells us that we need to be looking in another place that might be considered unlikely -- the faces of the "least of these." It's one of the clearest messages Jesus gives us about where to look for to find him. People look for God in all sorts of unlikely places, and here is Jesus telling us that we should be looking for God in the faces of the kid growing up in poverty, the family struggling to pay the heating bill, the single mother without adequate health care...
By framing it as a search for God and a discovery of Christ in the face of another, it takes the focus off what we *do* and toward what we *find* when we search for God among the least of these.
*BKW in IL
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 07:07:20
Thank you all for your insights to this text. I keep going back to the response of surprise by both sides. It is a reminder that it is not up to us and to know who is who and what will happen at the last judgment. After all God is still the one in control. Sally in GA I like the direction that you are going. By the way I think that the sermon you are referring to by Barbara Brown Taylor is from her Book THE PREACHING LIFE and the sermon title is "Knowing Glances". Vicar Jerry C.S.,PA
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 07:23:30
Some of you have pointed out that it is the "nations" that the Son of Man will come to judge, but interpreting "nations" as Gentiles or non-Christians. What if it really means "nations"? Who says Christianity and politics have nothing to do with one another?
Shalom in all senses.
Barbara in Cambridge England
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 07:38:41
Mike in NC,
Your draft sermon touched me. Great.
Only one comment (because I am a grammer nazi!).
You said, "Just because much of the human race has bought into the idea that there is no absolute truth or authority doesn't mean that God has given up on His authority."
I would delete the word "on." I might give up ON God's authority, because I have no control, I either trust God's authority, or I don't. But God, who is in control, either keeps authority, or abdicates (gives up).
Please don't take my critique the wrong way, I give it with fear of being called "too picky," but hope it will be of assistance to you.
Michelle
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 09:04:20
Thanks to Deke in TX who encouraged us to go back and read the whole Ezekiel text. WOW! I'm now thinking this.... We all focus on whether we are sheep or goats, or who in our congregations are sheep or goats, or whether the hebrews favored sheep over the goats, etc.... But isn't Jesus really calling us here to not be sheep or goats but shepherds?? In the Ezekiel passage, God is fed up with the kings who have failed as shepherds. God says to them "you have not strengthened the weak, you have not healed the sick, you have not bound up the injured, you have not brought back the strayed, you have not sought the lost..." Then later God says that HE will (as the shepherd of his own sheep)seek the lost, bring back the strayed, bind up the injured, strengthen the weak... God, of course, does that for us, his sheep, so clearly through Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd, especially through his death on the cross. So I hear this passage in Matthew reminding us that Christ has done these very things for us...he has been a Shepherd/king...and now he is asking the question, "who has acted like a shepherd?" We've heard this before...we may be the sheep in need of a shepherd, but at the same time, as faithful followers of THE Shepherd we are called to feed his sheep... We are having communion this Sunday... I'm thinking about the shepherd who still cares for us and feeds us and nourishes us and guides us at His table...and is calling us to go out and do the same for others...Not worrying about which side we'll land on (sheep or goats) but whether we are being the shepherds he has shown us how to be.... Still working on the part of how Jesus as the shepherd is now identified WITH the ones who are suffering (through the cross?) so that our acting as shepherds is really serving him as well as the least of these....?? It's only Friday...there's still PLENTY of time... K in SC
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 09:04:40
Thanks to Deke in TX who encouraged us to go back and read the whole Ezekiel text. WOW! I'm now thinking this.... We all focus on whether we are sheep or goats, or who in our congregations are sheep or goats, or whether the hebrews favored sheep over the goats, etc.... But isn't Jesus really calling us here to not be sheep or goats but shepherds?? In the Ezekiel passage, God is fed up with the kings who have failed as shepherds. God says to them "you have not strengthened the weak, you have not healed the sick, you have not bound up the injured, you have not brought back the strayed, you have not sought the lost..." Then later God says that HE will (as the shepherd of his own sheep)seek the lost, bring back the strayed, bind up the injured, strengthen the weak... God, of course, does that for us, his sheep, so clearly through Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd, especially through his death on the cross. So I hear this passage in Matthew reminding us that Christ has done these very things for us...he has been a Shepherd/king...and now he is asking the question, "who has acted like a shepherd?" We've heard this before...we may be the sheep in need of a shepherd, but at the same time, as faithful followers of THE Shepherd we are called to feed his sheep... We are having communion this Sunday... I'm thinking about the shepherd who still cares for us and feeds us and nourishes us and guides us at His table...and is calling us to go out and do the same for others...Not worrying about which side we'll land on (sheep or goats) but whether we are being the shepherds he has shown us how to be.... Still working on the part of how Jesus as the shepherd is now identified WITH the ones who are suffering (through the cross?) so that our acting as shepherds is really serving him as well as the least of these....?? It's only Friday...there's still PLENTY of time... K in SC
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 09:35:41
Thanks for all your thoughts. I think there is something going on in my heart about the fact that we tend to put people into categories. We tend to make our own judgements about what others do, or don't do. We are saved by grace alone - but if God loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us ... then our response must be to love others and we can do that in service. But, we mustn't seek to judge. Here in England there has been pages of press coverage on the death of Myra Hindley (the Moors murderer) - none of it seems to believe that she is forgiven by God, even though she seems to have genuinely repented of her evil ways. I guess it is hard for us human beings to love enough to forgive such horrific crimes, but God can - and does. Can any of us judge Myra Hindley as a sheep or a goat? I don't know where this is going but maybe it will help.
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 10:42:33
Dear Michelle the Grammer Nazi, In no way am I offended. I have had the experience of subjecting my sermons in a seminary class and to my sister who was also a grammer nazi of high rank. Getting feedback on this is one reason why I post my sermons ahead of time for other preachers. Grace and peace, Mike in NC.
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 13:16:03
I was so excited when I saw I was assigned to preach this week (I am one of the least senior on a preaching rotation of eight) because I have deeply loved this passage for so long and this is my first opportunity to preach on it. Now that I am looking at the blank page I realize what a difficult lection it is.
Suddenly I am worried about all the possible misinterpretations of this passage--it is so rich with layers of meaning. even though I have come to my own understanding of it over the years I am struggling with how to simplify it in a way that people will retain. There are a lot of seekers in my parish and I can't assume anything about their biblical literacy or their understanding of concepts like the last judgment. I've taken to heart the reminder to "keep it simple sweetheart" (love the "sweetheart"!) but it seems like such a complex passage now and I am stuck.
But it is only Friday and I don't have to preach at the 4pm Saturday service so I still have time.
Thanks to everyone for your insights and comments. I really appreciate the site.
Babypriest in MA
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 15:02:29
I've been thinking of how this parable is a warning of a judgment on the nations for not having the values of God. I have been looking for examples of how our vaules, as a society, are not God's vaulues. For example:
If we go to war, it will cost $billion/day. Iraq has one tenth of the world's oil. The US. has only enough reserves for itself for 4 years. The US has 4% of the world's population, but consumes %40 of the fuel.
In 2001, we paid a race car driver 80 million, a golfer 69 million, many baseball players 10 million, a tennis player 20 million, an actor (Mel Gibson for one) 25 million for one movie, in yet 14 million children die every year from preventable problems.
A CEO got a million dollars last year as a Christmas bonus - for doing a good job!! He says he makes many more playing the stock market.
Can anyone think of any more examples of "what's wrong with our world?" I'm looking for more examples of how the values of our nations is not the values of the commonwealth of God. Thanks, Brent in Pincher
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 15:06:40
Jesus here is speaking about his return, we might call it the apocalypse, which means unveiling or disclosure. A time when the world will see God's glory in Jesus Christ and all things will be made well. (to quote Julian of Norwich)
It might be a surpirse to the sheep and to us that the apocalypse is made present now, in the acts of mercy shown to the least of these. In this acts of mercy, Jesus reveals himself, an apocalpyse of sorts. It's just another way of seeing the end times, already present. The promise of God already breaking in on us here, and maybe we shouldn't be surprised when we see it,and Jesus, among us now. RB in Canada
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 17:00:46
A twisted little thought- I did my monthly duty as as an all night security person at a downtown homeless shelter last night and, as I said "Goodbye" to the residents of the shelter, I thought, "You are Christ. You are heading to the cross for me." These folk, and a billion or two like them in the world, are slaving to make my clothes, suffering because of my selfishness, hurting under the policies of my elected leaders, being killed in wars with people of my faith. They are paying the cost of our wealth, power, needs, wants and assumptions.
Makes one feel lower than a goat! I have little to offer them except to say it inspires me to try harder, work longer and make a greater effort...
TB in MN
Date: 22 Nov 2002
Time: 21:03:25
It appears to me that the Lord is trying to shift the emphasis of faith from our performance to the needs of others. The law oriented Pharisees and the nation of Israel was very much centered around their performance and not God. Jesus shifts the emphasis from themselves to himself and places himself with those in need. I would suggest to Eric that the danger of a "hellfire and brimstone" sermon on this text is that it shifts the emphasis back to our performance and not to our love for Christ and compassion for those in need. The other caution on such an approach is that we are dealing with the last judgment and it may not be viewed as a critique or rebuke of our flock. The Lord said we should not judge, lest we be judged. I have found this parable's meaning from an experience that might explain what I am saying. I serve in the city and served at a church that had a hunger center. At Christmas we provided food, clothing, and toys to more than 2000 families in need. The church was filled with good things for the poor, the hungry, the naked, etc. We, and I especially loved the text because we felt the pride that comes from doing what the Lord had said we should do for "the least." As the mover of this great distribution I felt like a kind and generous Santa Claus. One year after we had completed the Christmas distribution, the doors of the church were closed and people went home to prepare themselves to return for the Christmas Eve service. I was left alone to make my preparations when I heard a knock at the church door. A young mother had come for help. I told her we were closed. She pleaded with me that she had come from the hospital to get something for her children for Christmas and she would be returning to the hospital. She had cancer. I inspected the hospital band on her hand and it was current. I took her around and managed to gather a good collection of things that had been set aside. Things that I was going to deliver late that evening. I was feeling so good about myself helping someone in such need. After we had collected everything and stood at the door, she told me how grateful she was. She told me, "This is going to be the best Christmas we have ever had." Then she kissed me on the cheek and said, "Thank you for being so kind." It was an amazing epiphany to me when I saw myself for who I was and suddenly saw Jesus in her. It was humbling to think I was blessing her when I discovered she was blessing me. In less than three months she died leaving behind a three year old daughter and a six year old son. And I will never forget the night Jesus stopped by to kiss me on the cheek and I how I met Him where and when I least expected it, in the least.
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 06:04:54
I am sorry that my entry must have reached the max and was sent before I had a chance to sign it.
I beleive it is easy to see this story as a judgment based on works. Like the joke told about Martin Luther and Joh Calvin arriving in hell only to be greeted by St. Paul. They look at one another and say, "It guess it really was about works."
On first observation it can appear to be that until we realize that in this whole section Jesus is dealing with an Israel that had perverted the faith given to them by God. The Law had become a way for them to claim their own righteousness and ignore the righteousness of God. Faith existed to draw attention to themselves rather than God. Their acts of goodness and kindness were something that would gain them a reward. The whole spirituality/religion things centered in man and not in God.
Jesus shfts the emphasis by pointing out where it shoulc center-- in Him and therefore in God. And indentifying with the group that everyone strives to be unlike, he likens himself as found in them. And those whose hearts are right about this spiritual stuff do not recongine him because they are not doing it to be righteous, gain credit, be noticed, or get rewarded. They are doing it from the purity of their own hearts out of compassion fo those in need.
A recovery addict in my congregation has been struggling to make sense out of faith. A friend of his who does not believe has said to him, "Why do you believe in that God stuff when God has not done anything for you that I can notice." He kept asking that question as he kept asking God why he could not beat this problem. Then a few Sundays back he heard me say, "We think that God exists to meet our needs, but that is wrong. We exist to love and serve Him." He told me that is the kind of faith he has had. God was there to serve him and not the other way around. "I feel so dumb that for so long I have been so wrong. The devil really got my goat."
The goats never listen like sheep. They just go off and do their own thing. Goats don't need a shepherd. They don't want one.
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 06:05:46
Sorry, I forgot to sign it again.
Brooklyn Bob
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 06:45:43
To Brent et al: On the "values of the nations". . . if you want to talk about money spent, how about asking ourselves "How much money am I planning on spending on my Thanksgiving feast, and how does that compare to how much money I plan to spend on food for the poor this week/month? How much will we spend on Christmas presents for people who have no real needs?" These questions bring the cultural question back home to our own lives. How well are we demonstrating our faith, or how "habitual" has our impulse to share become? How aware are we of the superfluity of blessings we have received, which are really "too much" when we look around the world?
We and our possessions must decrease so that He (in the needy) can increase. Hmmm. Where are we divesting our selves of things and power so that others can be improved?
I am in a program that helps me work slowly at the project of "de-cluttering" my house, where I have ten years of accumulation plus the detritus of 20 years previous to that. Everyday I try to throw away 25 items and give away 25 items. An item can be as small as one piece of paper. Two months of progress. Two months of humbling knowledge that I am a very poor steward of all the bounty I have received. What have I been afraid of, that I needed, need to hold on to all this STUFF?
This project is psychological and spiritual I find. It's another way to face into my fear of being vulnerable. Why did I think that I needed MORE bookcases (Now there's a vulnerable area!), MORE closets, MORE storage containers?
Well, all this is to say, I need this sermon to "come home" to me. It's not just to be about how the governments of the world have their priorities wrong. So do I.
Sara, in GR, MI
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 09:06:01
We Lutherans, rabid as we are about the saved by grace concept, always have a tough time with this text. Working with the entire chapter of Ezekiel alongside it helped me. I see the Good News as being that God is the same Good Shepherd King in Matthew as in Ezekiel, caring for the needs of the flock. That care includes guiding us so that we are less likely to get lost, hurt each other, trample the grass and foul the drinking water, that kind of stuff. In this Matthew text, our Shepherd is teaching us how to live in this broken world. I think it's also true that, at various times and in various ways, we are 1) the suffering ones, 2) the helping ones, and 3) the passive ones who could be helping. I'll be supply preaching to farmers in the morning and preaching to college students in the evening, and there's a certain amount of freedom in both situations. Shalom, Carol in MN
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 11:14:29
RB in Canada, I've finished my sermon, but read your contribution. I may work some of your thought into my sermon. As a visual person, I can see us as existing within a huge egg--not yet what we should be--and this gradual chipping away with the tools being mercy, justice for all God's people--until the shell cracks and the people see the "Son" in all its brightness. Corny maybe. But...I'll work on the concept. Blessings! lp in CO
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 13:17:43
Last Sunday was "Alcohol and Drug Awareness Sunday," a tradition in my parish. Our Senior Warden, a recovering alcoholic, said to me, after the service, "The difference between AA and church is that in AA, we know that need to attend meetings in order to live. In church we seem to have forgotten that." Those words have been with me all week. We need our worship time, our time with God and community, in order to live... only that will fill us with enough love and gratitude to naturally reach out in love to those in need.. That must be the passion that fires us, that keeps us from becoming lukewarm... Peace. VicarJane in Western MA
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 15:20:30
Sara, in GR,MI: Thanks for your reflective thoughts about the way Thanksgiving and Christmas are out of proportion. Brent in Pincher
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 16:58:40
Thanks for all the insights. Remember, this is a parable with one main point so we have to be careful about pushing each nuance (e.g., salvation by grace/faith vs. works). Jesus is preaching to the converted, so to speak. He's telling us what to DO
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 17:03:59
(I hit the submit button by mistake! Am I a goat?) To continue, it's what we DO with our life in faith, how we demonstrate our faith that Jesus is addressing here. One of the most interesting aspects here is the element of surprise, both by the righteous and unrighteous. The service was a natural outgrowth of faith and thus reward was a surprise. The goatly folk were also surprised that they missed the opportunities to live out their faith. Oh, well, on and on by this retired PCUSA minister -- who spent 20 years ministering to (and even more, being ministered to by mentally retarded people). Glenn in NY
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 17:06:17
Someone wrote: "Thanks for all the insights. Remember, this is a parable with one main point so we have to be careful about pushing each nuance (e.g., salvation by grace/faith vs. works). Jesus is preaching to the converted, so to speak. He's telling us what to DO"
You're welcome... and that's how I started my sermon.... but I scrapped it and decided he's not telling us what to DO at all! He's telling us who he IS! If he is in our lives who he is supposed to be, we'll end up "doing" and not even knowing it!
My text is at http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/proper29-a-rcl-2002.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 17:08:53
Oh ... a p.s....
I meant to say a big thanks to Brooklyn Bob and Vicar Jane ... your stories of recovering addicts who "got it" worked themselves into my sermon, verbatim ... with appropriate attestation to y'all.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 19:16:41
To Eric,
I know it is late, and I am sure you are 100% ready for preaching in the morning, but I felt I wanted to respond to your image of pastors being sheepdogs. Yes! And remember that sometimes sheepdogs have to nip at the heals of the sheep! So preach on . . . and be bold! RevMom in Maine
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 19:44:45
RevMom (what on earth are you doing up at this hour?) said, "And remember that sometimes sheepdogs have to nip at the heals of the sheep!"
That's what my pastoral theology prof always said. The sheepdog image is his.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 21:01:07
Story for Thanksgiving or Christmas...
A friend of mine put the following in his newsletter... I called Brook with tears in my eyes... he gave me permission to share with you the following...
"Christmas Memory #13 (The one I never thought I had), I have a pretty good memory. At least that?s what my wife, Cyndy, tells me. I can remember things about my childhood that she can?t even dream of remembering.
Unfortunately on this particular Christmas Eve, probably because of the grief, there was no surprise. I don?t know if Dad forgot to give mom a present, or just failed to make it a surprise, but all I can remember now was that the atmosphere around that table was as if someone had just sucked the air and life right out of our dining room. It just wasn?t Christmas. And to top it all off, we had forgotten to get Oyster stew (a family tradition) and had made potato soup instead. So it didn?t even smell like Christmas Eve.
And then it happened. There was a knock on the door. And I?m not kidding you the whole family groaned in resentment as if we were screaming ?can?t you see we?re grieving here! Leave us alone!? Indeed I think I can almost remember dad letting out a very, very rare swear word (one of 3 I can remember him ever swearing and I?m not kidding!) out of the side of his mouth as he resentfully plodded to the door and who could it be but Orland, a local native American man, who usually came to our house in desperate need of a sandwich or more. Dad quickly put on his gracious mask and before we knew it Orlando was sitting in the inner sanctum of our family table of grief, and not one of us wanted him there.
As we stared at our potato soup about to dig in, Orlando stood up and said, ?Reverend, would you allow me to say grace for this special meal.? And Dad, with a look of complete surprise on his face, said, ?why not?? We all bowed our head and prepared ourselves for the pat prayer we were used to, but as Orlando stood, took off his hat, and began to pray, something very strange began to happen. For Orlando didn?t ask God to bless the food, but instead lifted up a prayer for my dad and my mom and each of us. Asking that God be with us in this time of struggle and pain. Orlando, the incessant one in need, was praying for me, and as this blessed stranger prayed for our pain, a strange and wonderful incense began slowly warm the souls of the McBride table again--the incense of God With Us carried by an unexpected and unusual messenger.
Your friend, basking in the fragrance of God?s grace, Brook McBride (Vermillion UMC - Vermillion, SD)Brook's email vermumc@dtgnet.com pulpitt in ND
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 21:08:24
My friend, Brook McBride, A UMC pastor in Vermillion, SD shares the following story about his 13th Christmas Day... it is used with his permission....
My apologies for the story in it's partial format... if you want the whole story, email me and I'll send it to you, or you could as Brook himself. You see Brooks sister died when he was 13... his family of nine was in grief... when the door bell rang. His dad, was a pastor and would give ANYone the shirt of his back...here is the last paragraphs of his newsletter article...
And then it happened. There was a knock on the door. And I'm not kidding you the whole family groaned in resentment as if we were screaming "can't you see we're grieving here! Leave us alone!" Indeed I think I can almost remember dad letting out a very, very rare swear word (one of 3 I can remember him ever swearing and I'm not kidding!) out of the side of his mouth as he resentfully plodded to the door and who could it be but Orland, a local native American man, who usually came to our house in desperate need of a sandwich or more. Dad quickly put on his gracious mask and before we knew it Orlando was sitting in the inner sanctum of our family table of grief, and not one of us wanted him there. As we stared at our potato soup about to dig in, Orlando stood up and said, "Reverend, would you allow me to say grace for this special meal." And Dad, with a look of complete surprise on his face, said, "why not?" We all bowed our head and prepared ourselves for the pat prayer we were used to, but as Orlando stood, took off his hat, and began to pray, something very strange began to happen. For Orlando didn?t ask God to bless the food, but instead lifted up a prayer for my dad and my mom and each of us. Asking that God be with us in this time of struggle and pain. Orlando, the incessant one in need, was praying for me, and as this blessed stranger prayed for our pain, a strange and wonderful incense began slowly warm the souls of the McBride table again--the incense of God With Us carried by an unexpected and unusual messenger. This Advent and Christmas season, whether you're in darkness of grief, trying to "stuff it" and failing, or in the light of joy and thanksgiving, may you always remember the incense of Christmas---and the message it brings, "I am with you always." Your friend, basking in the fragrance of God's grace, Brook McBride vermumc@dtgnet.com
submitted with permission by pulpitt in ND or pulpitt@702com.net
Date: 23 Nov 2002
Time: 21:52:21
A late addition...
How many times has it happened to you? You're somewhere, anywhere really? and you?re caught being, well, yourself, with all your warts and all. I mean, you're having a bad day? and someone gets in your way? and well, you let 'em have it. Only to find out that they know someone YOU know! It didn't happen exactly like this? but it could have? I'll give you an example? the youth group has a credit card, I don't use it very often? in fact I?ve decided with Liz's (our youth diretor's) guidance that we're not going to have one anymore? we cut it up. But not before I called to complain about the way they do their billing. I was hot! $35 dollars for a "late fee" that wasn't even a month late. I was livid, I got on the phone in my office and called to let the company know what I thought of their billing practices. I was not going to go easy either, they were going to drop the fee or heads were going to roll! Midway through my tirade ? the young voice on the other end of the phone said, "Is this Rick?" "Yes, that's my name!" "Are you the pastor of Faith United Methodist Church in Fargo, ND? just the north side of Fargo NORTH HIGHSCHOOL??" "Yes!" I said "sheepishly"? who is this, "Well, this is Pat daughter, my mom used to play the organ in your church!" Oh, well, how are YOU doing Heidi? "I'm fine, and Rick, I'll take care of this $35 fee for you?" "You will?" said the mean 'ole goat? "I'd be glad to, tell the people of the church "hi" for me? my mom always liked your church!" I HATE that? I'm probably the only one that's ever happened to. Had I only known her from the beginning?I wouldn?t have been such a jerk. It was a case of mistaken identity? I didn't think I'd know her, or that she would know me?? I mean, she was in another state? and Jesus said, "I am telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me ? you failed to do it me ? and I am saddened by that." The Message
pulpitt in ND