Date: 05 Jan 2003
Time: 13:44:09
This pasage strikes me as a commercial that will never appear on television -- a popular product is being pitched and the sales rep says to the clients, "What I offer is OK, maybe even pretty good, but there is something better than what I am offering. I got your attention by being flashy, but substance is more important!" Along comes SUBSTANCE! which is blessed by both the sales rep and by God.
OLAS
Date: 05 Jan 2003
Time: 13:44:32
This pasage strikes me as a commercial that will never appear on television -- a popular product is being pitched and the sales rep says to the clients, "What I offer is OK, maybe even pretty good, but there is something better than what I am offering. I got your attention by being flashy, but substance is more important!" Along comes SUBSTANCE! which is blessed by both the sales rep and by God.
OLAS
Date: 05 Jan 2003
Time: 14:08:25
B. Davie Napier in "Song of the Vineyard" (New York, Harper and Row, 1962) writes:
"Not creatio ex nihilo but creation in terms of analgous to Israel's own creation. Israel was prior tothe call of Moses, bu she was chaos. She was without order, meaningless. She was .... tohu vavohu, "formless and void." God called her into being by his Word. (page 49)"
This is the very condition that Jesus finds as he comes to the Jordan to be baptized by John. It is as though the people of God had sunk into a chaotic, formless void, lost, confused, blinded, without a shepherd to lead them. In the Jordan, God sets out to create once again a people for himself.
The light that burst forth from the heavens with the angels to the shepherds, the great light that drew the sages to Bethlehem, enters the water to enlighten everyone.
tom in ga
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 04:36:56
I am captured by the image that Jesus began His work at the touch of the Holy Spirit, just as the disciples began their work at the touch of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
This leads me to understand how powerless we are without the Holy Spirit touching our lives.
KAS
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 05:34:56
How do I preach the message that the one that came before me has the good stuff. I am just hear to say it again. I am not worthy to tie his sandels, but I mistakenly think I am worthy to repeat his message and maybe even twist if for my own gain???????? BT IND
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 06:08:21
12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. (Mark 1:12)(also found in Matt 4:1, Luke 4:1)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Cor. 2:9,12)
These scriptures tell me that God's plan for our life comes through his Holy Spirit. This knowledge is power and it is something that we naturally fight. (I'm not sure if fight is the word I'm looking for) It is intresting that Jesus was driven into the wilderness to be tempted by satan. Was this a time of understanding? Time used for the human person of Jesus to come inline with the divine mystery of being the Son of God with a mission?
Jesus is called the beloved here. Maybe that's the key? Love is more than an emotion it becomes the focus of Jesus' life. (the plan so to speak) Sometimes love can be hard to accept, I wonder why?
Just getting my head around it, what do you think? KB in ks
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 09:18:02
KAS,
You hit the nail on the head. In fact, your brief comments on the power of the Holy Spirit have helped me get a sermon "angle" already.
How many of us desperate preachers would be doing what were doing if it weren't for the touch of the Holy Spirit? How on earth would we keep on keeping on without the H.S.?
Another thought: The Holy Spirit was for Jesus, a source of power, but also a confirmation of who he was and what he had come to acomplish.
It's early in the week. I look forward to the discussion.
MEL in NE
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 09:47:43
About a year ago my grandmother died at the ripe old age of 93. Sometime prior to her death, I realized that my continuity with my past was about to be gone (my father had passed away 10 years ago).
I always felt the strongest family ties with my father’s side and claimed my sense of identity through them. I began to ask questions about my genealogy… about my grandmother’s family history and about my great grandfather (whose last name was Fahling) whom I remember well from my childhood.
As I questioned my mother about the family history on my father’s side, she indicated to me that my great grandfather’s real last name is unknown. It seems that he left the old country and came to the New World as a waif, his journey paid for by a farmer with the name of Fahling.
Upon crossing the waters of the Atlantic, my great grandfather took up residency with this farmer, labored on his land and even took upon himself his sponsor’s name and identity and became part of the Fahling family even receiving a share in the inheritance of the family farm.
At first I was disappointed with the loss of a history, but then I realized that in many respects this is the meaning of our baptisms. Crossing the waters we take on different residency, ordained labors, and new identities and begin a new history. We become an integral part of the family of God through sharing in the baptism of Christ who sponsors and pays for our journey.
sorry this takes up so much space,
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 14:05:49
Remembering our baptism...
I have the baptismal FONT in the center of the front of the sanctuary. I've replaced our "pie tin sized bowl" with a large stoneware bowl... In it, I've placed water a couple hundred of those flat marbles... they can be purchased at any ARTS AND CRAFTS STORE, or at your local Wal-Mart in the ARTS AND CRAFTS department. They cost under $10 bucks for a couple hundred I would guess... I always try to have extras for any and ALL who might come this Sunday. multi colored different stones this year... I have some green ones, dark blue ones, purple ones, gold ones, light blue ones and clear ones... we're all different but the same in God's SIGHT or should I say ...
Before the end of the worship... either just before they are invited forward or during my sermon I invite all in attendance to come forward to remember their baptism. They need to make the effort... to get out of the pew and come forward, dipping their hands in the cool waters of baptism reminds them of the change that took place in their lives, mostly as infants. Now as adults or even older youth... they are invited to take a stone... it's round, basically... reminding us that we are all a part of the whole. Some have chips or nicks in them... we too come with nicks and chips, some seen, some known only to God and ourselves. They are flat, (don't want people losing their marbles over this) ;?)... so they won't roll away if you place them on your night stand, a dresser, by the sink in your bathroom, your kitchen, or on your office computer. They are clear... (you can get blue ones, or clear ones or even kind of rainbow metalic looking ones... I try to vary the stones from year to year...)... They are ALL "See through"... just as our lives are an open book to God.
Some carry them in their purses or pockets to remind them of God's love, ALL THE TIME! Reaching for change, to feel the smooth stone is a comforting reminder of God's abundant LOVE.
pulpitt in ND
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 14:23:36
Mark is such a "just the facts, ma'am" sort of gospel. I find myself missing the fullness of the other accounts - of John resisting, or of "the Spirit descending ~in bodily form~ like a dove ..." Three verses and it's over.
Mark is so concise, there's something meaningful in the pre-expansion. These are the facts, this is what's important - Jesus was baptized by John, the heavens tore apart and the Spirit descended, and a voice from heaven claimed him "my Son, the Beloved - AND God's pleasure with his son."
Maybe Jesus' baptism is less about the nuances than the rite (it was a rite, not a Sacrament at the time of Jesus' baptism, wasn't it?) and the seal of approval. (Reminds me of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval).
I had to come to grips with my need for ritual and ceremony. The Protestant side of me wants to deny power in the ritual because ritual is not a substitute for substance, and the Catholic side of me wants to fully encounter ritual as a way of marking and ordaining holy time.
I see Jesus' baptism as marking holy time - the next step in the story of the Good News. A baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins - to which one who was without sin submitted - was the initial step in his ministry.
I'm going to stop at v. 11, though, and not get too much into the message of baptism being the beginning of ministry (which it is), but I'm drawn to reflect further on the ordination itself rather than the surrounding story. I don't like preaching Mark, but he keeps me honest to the issue at hand.
Thanks for letting me ramble a bit.
Sally in GA
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 14:28:56
pulpitt in ND - good idea with the stones! We'll do a reaffirmation of the baptismal covenant this week, too, and that might make a good memento. One year I printed a clip art of a shell in about a 1 1/2" square and laminated them with clear Contact paper with the words "Remember and be grateful" on it so that worshipers could put them in their wallets like those pocket crosses.
Sally
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 14:30:14
Remembering our baptism.... pulpitt in ND, Do you ever get any comments like, "we did this last year." or "When will I have a complete collection?" or has this become a new tradition with your church? I have just used the clear "water drops" once, but wondered about its becoming old hat. Max in NC
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 14:36:54
Are you all familiar with Bob Snook's work from the Saddleback Church...
He has some great scripts usable for worship and their FREE!
Here is one that my daughter and I did for Baptism Sunday...
Enjoy...
http://www.thewestcoast.net/bobsnook/stg/new/baptist.htm
Pulpitt in ND
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 15:09:29
Maybe I've shared this here before... my friend Kip tells the story of his mothers baptism. She never told anyone this story until Kip, now a pastor was discussing baptism with her a few years ago.
Apparently, Kip's mom, Carol Sue, was baptized when she was a little older than an infant. Probably 5 or 6 years old. Still, the memory is a vivid one.
As she recalls... "When the pastor dipped his hand in the water... I saw... something sparkly misting through the stained glass window... I really felt it WAS the Holy Spirit touching ME. Years later, she would hide her face at baptism for she was "afraid" of the HS.
Of course the cynic might say it was nothing more than "dust" in the air... but for her, it was REALLY the Holy Spirit.
pulpitt in ND
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 15:19:45
Spiritual Tatoo...
Barbara Sholis used that term later in her article regarding the Mark text for Sunday...
I think back to the pictures and the experience of water in basements along the Red River... and ANYwhere else flood waters have flowed. There is a HIGH water mark on basements and even living room walls.
Just rambling... although THOSE marks are probably not the best ones to recall. We all are surrounded by those who will remind us of how we've been marked and blessed by God's unconditional waters of Grace.
Pulpitt in ND
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 18:08:42
I NEED SOME HELP!!! This is off the topic, but... I have a 19 year old son dating a 17 year old. She happens to be the step-daughter of the Wesleyan pastor down the street from my Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). On several ocassions they, (the pastor & his wife) have sat my son down, told him he was spiritually immature (as compared to their daughter) and quizzed him about Holiness being better than Calvinism (which I have by the way never mentioned in 23 years of ministry). Instead of holiness I believe their attitude is more holier than thou. My son wants me to go talk to them. Should I and what would I say? PH in OH
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 20:24:52
"My son wants me to go talk to them. Should I and what would I say?"
In a loving and Christian manner ... tell them to piss off!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 20:53:52
Gee-whiz! I think the Wesleyan family missed this quote from John ... Wesley, that is: "in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity." I'm with Eric ... well, almost. I would probably do a little editing. (heh-heh) PastorBuzz (UMC, by the way) in Tennessee
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 21:39:12
PH in OH,
I would be a little more conservative, offering a gathering of the two young adults and the four more mature adults so that you can establish some expectations for treating each other with respect (which it appears the other parents are not doing with your son). I would suggest you act more as moderator, and that your son do the speaking. It might be a good opportunity for him to speak up for himself without being unfairly chastized by her parents. (Might be interesting to know what the 17-year-old daughter has to say about it, too.)
Michelle
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 21:42:08
I love the imagery of the heavens being torn apart--What would that look like? One lone (but huge) bolt of lightening with a deafening crack of thunder containing the voice of God, "YOU ARE MY SON!"?
Michelle
Date: 06 Jan 2003
Time: 22:42:04
I walked a dog from the SPCA for three weeks before Christmas. All went well, with me, individually. We introduced it to our kids on Christmas Eve day. All did not go well. The dog bit my mom and snapped at others. A dog trainer from the SPCA said we should never have been allowed to take home that dog. She said it might never grow out of attacking when afraid, and we would never know if it is safe. She took the dog back and introduced us to another dog. She said the other dog was "confident." Indeed this other dog is great. Because it is "confident," it is safe, secure and happy. The trainer said if a dog is loved and socialized as a puppy, it is "set up for life." The other dog was not "set up for life." It was never properly loved and treated well as a pup.
Scott Walker in his book "Driven No More," says people need to receive their blessing - meaning approval, love, acceptance, value and praise, from their parents. If people aren't blessed, they have troubles in life.
Jesus received a divine blessing at his baptism. Because he knew he was blessed at the core of his being, he could face the devil, face religious and political opposition, heal, eat with outcasts, and die in solidarity with the oppressed.
What can't we do when we know our blessing?
I think the job of the church is to help people receive their blessing, and know they are blessed, so they are "set up for life." If not, people may suffer, like the poor dog whom we first took home. Brent in Pincher
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 06:56:56
One angle that has not been mentioned much yet is that of Rites of Passage. I would like to explore some rites of passages from other cultures and as to what the signify in their perspective cultures. As Christians, Baptism is God claiming us, do we see this promise, this beautiful act, as a rite of passage as we begin our spiritual journey's? Whether it is as an infant or as an adult, do we celebrate this ceremony with the joy and excitment that we do birthdays, sweet 16 parties, first dances, ect...?
I also have the priveledge of Baptizing two young boys who have entered confirmation class this previous fall.
I would like to read some of your thoughts on this point of view.
Grace, Michael in Texas
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 06:58:21
Pr. del in IA,
Thanks for sharing that story about your family history as it relates to baptism. It was powerful and helpful. Thanks!
EB in KY
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 07:58:59
How I long to preach on this text. I love it. Unfortunately, I will be traveling this weekend. Perhaps a three-point outline emerges as we see the heavens split, a Spirit descend, and a voice speak. What would I see and hear had I entered the water? Had I been the one in the river...the heavens would have slammed shut due to my sinfulness, descending upon me would not have been a spirit like a dove, rather a taloned eagle to carry me off to judgment, and the voice would have declared me, not a beloved son, rather a lost and condemned creature. Thanks be to God who gives us the victory in Christ. Because Jesus came, fulfilled all, and accomplished my salvation, I can receive the gifts promised in my baptism (whether in infancy or adulthood). Indeed, John needed Christ to wash him. However, Jesus gives a wonderful and powerful visual aid for all to see and hear of what can and does happen because of His coming.
On the subject of anxiety...a George Orwell quote comes to mind, "There is one part of you that wants to be a hero or a saint, but another part of you is a little fat man who sees very clearly the advantages of staying alive with a whole skin." Those anxious about the future may not be comforted by these words but at least we know we are not alone. We also know that as we belong to Christ, nothing can separate us from God's love. ARMY CHAPLAIN E, Ft Belvoir
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 08:00:09
Good advice from Michelle: Your son is 19, a young man and can speak for himself. If he plans on any relationship with the 17 year old gal, then he will have to learn how to interact and stand up to "Dad." Although really tough, we have to allow our kids to do some of the hard stuff themselves... speaking as a parent who knows what it feels like to watch and allow a child to fall inorder to gain confidence in the process of picking one's self up. Good luck! Rev.wm
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 09:35:04
To Sally in GA
"Mark is such a "just the facts, ma'am" sort of gospel. "
The New Student Bible (NRSV) by Augsburg introduces Marks Gospel as a closely edited documentary. Dispenceing with almost everything but action. The word greek word sometimes translated as "immediately" is used 42 times. It does have the pace of an action thriller movie.
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 10:19:44
I will add my 2cents worth about the 19yearold and the 17yearold. I like the idea of letting the 19 yearold speak for Himself, after all, speaking your own faith is much better than being a parrot. However, I think that maybe before he speaks you might want to discuss the questions with him first. That way he clarifies his beliefs and it is easier to profess. I think that it is totally inappropriate to "defend" in this situtation so that a debate or argument occours, rather that it be an open exchange of beliefs. some how my Mommy protection instinct would like to make it known somehow that they are badgering my kid unecessarily! gRRRRRRRRR! Nancy-Wi
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 10:23:52
I need some help for a Hispanic baptism. I want to do the baptism in both languages, God help me pronoun things correctly! Does anyone know of a particular Spanish/Hispanic/Mexican hymn or song available in Spanish that would be meaningful for the service. Nancy-Wi
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 10:43:19
PH in OH, Had to have my say on your dilemma with your son and the girl's family. As a licensed marriage and family therapist as well as a part-time solo pastor in the Calvinist tradition (Presbyterian), I have to agree that your son is old enough to handle his problems with her family. Don't get involved at all. You have done a good job of modeling how to "mind your own business" if you stay neutral in this. Practice what you preach (hopefully)--tolerance and cultivating a non-judgmental attitude. For we are all baptized into the same body. Of course, you are probably feeling much like Eric expressed, but I'd only share that with your spouse or closest friends. Adolescents are "practicing" adults, so the more you give them the space to practice the better they will handle their situations in the future. Good luck letting go, BB in IL
PS. I used the glass stones last year and it was a big hit, especially as I played "Going down to the River to Pray" from the "O Brother where Art Thou" CD. The congregation was really into it, even my Unitarian husband came forward to remember his own Presbyterian baptism! Now that was worth seeing and witnessing. Indeed the Holy Spirit moves in mysterious ways.
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 10:56:43
Nancy in WI,
Regarding the Hispanic baptism, there is a song in the Presbyterian Hymnal "Lord, You have Come to the Lakshore" that has Spanish verses as well. The title in Spanish is "Tu Has Venido a la Orilla." It is #377 in the PH. It is a very beautiful and moving hymn and works well with guitar, so it sounds even more Latino. Actually the tune is from Latin America "Pescador de Hombres." Hope this helps, BB in IL
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 11:40:46
It seems to me that for too long, at least since the Reformation, we have returned to the Baptism of John as the norm .. calling people to confess their sins and to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, without fully understanding the power of this sacrament to transform lifes and to bring us into the Divine Life of God.
Why is this sacrament so difficult to grasp, to understand, even by us professional people? Why does the nature of this bath slip out of our hands, could it be that the Holy Spirit will not let us rest or be comfortable with our formulas or doctrines?
tom in ga
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 13:31:52
Actually, on the Calvinist 19 y.o. dating 17 y.o. Holiness-ist (is that word?) I think BB's advice is the best.... still I do rather feel about it as I expressed earlier.
On the "in all things liberty" quotation? Who do you suppose really said it? Mennonites claim it was Menno Simons; Methodists claim it was good ol' John W.; I'm sure if I look hard enough I can find an Anglican attribution of it to Richard Hooker, and a Lutheran giving credit to Martin! But I wonder who really said it....
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS -- One of these days I'll actually start thinking about the lessons for next Sunday.
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 13:32:26
Ooops ... that should be "in all things charity" shouldn't it?
Eric
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 14:44:51
Tom in ga Thanks! You pointed out a gret direction for my sermon. How often is baptism looked at as being saved from something, instead of claiming our gifts and calling.We need to move it from, whew, I'm safe to wow, I'm loved and accepted by God.Notice that Jesus hasn't done a darn thing yet, yet he has the divine seal of approval And on the blessing angle-theologian Sam Keen says it is the father's responsibility to bless
and Sally-I love preaching from Mark. Just so much movement and excitement in that gospel ( oh, wait, I'm Presbyterian-we aren't allowed to get excited. Oh,well)
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 14:44:55
Tom in ga Thanks! You pointed out a gret direction for my sermon. How often is baptism looked at as being saved from something, instead of claiming our gifts and calling.We need to move it from, whew, I'm safe to wow, I'm loved and accepted by God.Notice that Jesus hasn't done a darn thing yet, yet he has the divine seal of approval And on the blessing angle-theologian Sam Keen says it is the father's responsibility to bless
and Sally-I love preaching from Mark. Just so much movement and excitement in that gospel ( oh, wait, I'm Presbyterian-we aren't allowed to get excited. Oh,well)
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 15:23:32
Eric: "Who do you suppose really said it?"
I've even read somewhere that it was attributed first to Augustine.
PastorBuzz
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 17:26:49
For what its worth...
The text says that "the Holy Spirit descended like a dove on him." Interesting thing is that often we talk about doves as peaceful animals. The truth is that doves will often eat their own kind when taken to fight with each other. The fact that they are white (the color of purity) has given them the reputation of being peaceful. This is not necesarily true. Instead, doves were more like pigeons in the sense that they were messengers for people living in the ancient world. Doves could carry messages for people across long lands and could be counted on to return to their owner. The Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus as a dove is another way of saying that it came upon Him with as a messenger.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 17:28:15
Sorry, the last line should say.. "it came upon Him with a message."
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 17:33:12
"In essentials, unity, in doubtful matters,liberty; in all things charity." popularly attributed to Augustine
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 18:22:01
As some of you are concentrating on the Holy Spirit, I believe I will use this passage to develope a theology of baptism including the work of the Holy Spirit that is consistent with the Wesleyan tradition of which I am an offspring. Often, a lot of emphasis is place upon the water in baptism and the person's willing participation in that event. However, the emphasis of the Mark passage is on that which happens after the fact: the spirits affirmation that Jesus is God's son with whom God is well pleased. At this point, I am going to introduce Gary Smalley and John Trent's notion of blessing. Jesus' certainty over God's blessing upon his life created the conditions that would assure that Jesus would be able to accomplish that for which he was sent. Think what would happen in our church's if we could invoke a similar blessing upon our congregations. TN Mack
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 18:39:43
Brent, I like the "Dog analogy"...
Thanks, regarding the 19 and 17 year old... piss off might be a little strong... I don't see any thing wrong with talking that out with the other pastor, the two of you, the four of you or the sixth of you. If, and it sounds like he won't take it anyway... maybe it wouldn't hurt to meet with him alone at first... then bring on the reserves... (if he doesn't listen) and say something like: "I understand your faith tradition is different than my sons, but I know him to be a very faithful Christian in his own right." OR "I've heard that you are concerned about my sons "holiness"... I'm sorry but that sounds a little arrogant or pharisaic doesn't it?"
All is PHARISEE in love and war,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 07 Jan 2003
Time: 21:19:11
pulpitt in ND. You are a brave man. Just remember the words of wisdom that go something like: "Anyone who argues with a fool, becomes one." Brent in Pincher
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 04:17:42
pulpitt ... that energetic Methodist from the frozen north ... offerd, "maybe it wouldn't hurt to meet with him alone at first... then bring on the reserves" ...
You've been reading the Scriptures again, haven't you? Matthew 18, I think: "15 If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If the member listens to you, you have regained that one. 16 But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."
==============
Apropos of this lesson -- Who heard the voice from the Heavens? Only Jesus, Jesus and John, everyone? If the latter, why did it have so little effect on the rest of the hearers? Why do the baptisms we perform seem to have so little effect on the candidates and those who witness them?
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 06:42:37
New Pastor on the Jersey Shore wrote on a unique interpretation on the descending dove, as it bring a message. Thanks.
That is a different angle that I haven't thought much of.
I have still been thinking about the rites of passage that we culturally celebrate. Events that mark time, that signify a new era of living.
When Christ was baptized, his life was entering into a new time of ministry. A new beginning.
When we baptize people, either as children or as adults, it marks a new time. It begins to mark God's time.
Someone wrote on the fear and awe that should be associate with Baptism. If we reaaly think about it, it should scare the hell out of us(no pun intended). Yet as we walk into the presence of God. God declares his love and claim on us. While this is scarey in one sense, it should also be very beautiful.
God has a chance to let his will be known to us and the world. Maybe that was the message of the dove?
So much religion focuses on fearing God and God's wrath and judgement, are we maybe putting words of judgement in the mouth of God to justify the distance that we feel between us and God. Since sin was committed in the Garden, Humanity has been hiding and running from God out of guilt and shame.
Was that God's intention, or had he been trying to reconcile with humanity through out time.
In Baptism, God finaly gets his turn to speak, and that message is....
You know it!
Thanks for letting me ramble
Michael in Texas
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 07:29:48
It appears that for Mark and his community, what makes Jesus the son of God is his baptism. There is no Christmas story, no virgin birth, no immaculate conception. Jesus became the son of God the moment that the spirit rested on him at his baptism. Powerful stuff. Mark makes Jesus more human than God-like.
It also implies that we also become children of God at our baptism. Perhaps the spirit may not rest on us as powerfully as it did on Jesus -- none of us are The Messiah -- but we can become little Messiah's for others.
How would our faith be changed if we lived knowing that God affirms us already? We are already God's beloved children. There are still so many people still believe that God is out to get them if they mess up. Teh world would change if we lived knowing we are accepted by God, and the world would change dramatically if we believed everyone else out there (including Iraqis, etc.) was loved by God.
Rev. Karen in Ontario
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 07:37:56
So let us look closely at the dove for it connects the Genesis reading with the Gospel.
From Genesis 1 we read:
.... a wind from God swept over (a wind from God sweeping over) ....
Rauch (wind, breath, spirit) is God's creative, life-giving, sustaining energy heralding the arrival of God and symbolizing his presence, transforming the inert, disorganized matter by animating it with his Spirit.
Again from Genesis:
... swept (sweeping) ....
There is an allusion here of an eagle or a dove hovering or brooding over its young. The Spirit (dove) broods over that which is chaotic and full of waste bringing order and life.
Rashi on Genesis 1:2 - The Spirit of God was moving: the Throne of glory was standing in the air and moving on the face of the waters by the Spirit of the mouth of the Holy One, blessed be he, and by his Word like a dove that broods on the nest.
Bab. Hag. 15a - ... the Spirit of God was brooding on the face of the waters like a dove which broods over her young but does not touch them.
The Spirit of God active at the beginning was to be expected at the world's renewal. The entry of hte Redeemer upon the world was the work of the Spirit (in birth and baptism).
... and the Spirit was descending like a dove on him.
The descent of the Spirit as a dove upon Jesus recalls the movement of the wind upon the waters in Genesis and recalls Noah's dove going out as the water dried up
"For so, when once a common shipwreak had overtaken the whole world, and our race was in danger of perishing, this creature appeared, and indicated the deliverance from the tempest, and bearing an olive branch, published the good tidings of the common calm of the whole world. Therefore the dove also appeared, not bearing an olive branch, but pointing out to us our Deliverer from all evils." <John Chrysostom>
And a voice came from heaven .....
The bath qol was heard at the baptism and again at the transfiguration and it literally means "daughter of the voice," implying an indirect hearing of a voice uttered from heaven (an echo). I can't remember the psalm number, but the verse goes something like this: "The word was given once, twice I have heard it."
The bath qol is a substitute for the direct Word of God which was formally given by the Holy Spirit to a prophet. Since the days of the last prophets the Spirit had not spoken directly; Israel had only the bath qol. Thus the usual notion of the bath qol or voice from heaven is that of an inferior substitute for inspiration by the Holy Spirit. The sound of the bath qol is sometimes compared to the cry of a bird. <CK Barrett, The Holy Spirit and the Gospel Tradition, 1966>
The presence of the Spirit upon the waters takes us back once again - this time to Genesis. We find ourselves drawn immediately into this center, this beginning, which is the first day of creation. As Jesus emerges from the waters, the heavens are opened once again, the Spirit descends and the light is born.
The first day develops from the account in Genesis 1:1-5 in this way: corresponding to the creation of light in the first creation is the manifestation of uncreated light in the self-identification of Jesus as the I AM, in the new creation. The material darkness remains, but the light shines for those who believe in him who “receive him.”
tom in ga
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 09:11:23
I got this illustration from a DPSer some time ago and used it Sunday. But it might well fit this week also. I believe Craddock is Disciples of Christ. I'll be using the great illustration from pr del inIA this sunday. jrbnrnc
Fred Craddock is a well known homiletics professor. Which is to say he teaches preaching. I think he’s another Methodist. In any case, he was in Tennessee a few years back: Gatlinburg, Tennessee, on vacation with his wife. One night they found a quiet little restaurant where they looked forward to a private meal—just the two of them. While they were waiting for their meal they noticed a distinguished looking, white-haired man moving from table to table, visiting guests. Craddock whispered to his wife, “I hope he doesn’t come over here.” He didn’t want the man to intrude on their privacy. But the man did come by his table. “Where you folks from?” he asked amicably. “Oklahoma,” they said. The man responded: “Splendid state, I hear, although I’ve never been there. What do you do for a Living?" Fred told him: “I teach homiletics.” This got the gentleman going. “Oh, so you teach preachers, do you. Well, I’ve got a story I want to tell you.” And with that he pulled up a chair and sat down at the table with Craddock and his wife. Craddock said he groaned inwardly: Oh no, here comes another preacher story. It seems everyone has one. The man stuck out his hand. “I’m Ben Hooper. I was born not far from here across the mountains. My mother wasn’t married when I was born so I had a hard time. When I started school my classmates had a name for me, and it wasn’t a very nice name. I used to go off by myself at recess and during lunch-time because the teasing of my playmates cut so deeply. “What was worse was going downtown on Saturday afternoon and feeling every eye burning a hole through you. They were all wondering just who my father was. “When I was about 12 years old a new preacher came to our church. I would always go in late and slip out early. But one day the preacher said the benediction so fast I got caught and had to walk out with the crowd. I could feel every eye in church on me. Just about the time I got to the door I felt a big hand on my shoulder. I looked up and the preacher was looking right at me. “Who are you, son? Whose boy are you?’ I felt the old weight come on me. It was like a big black cloud. Even the preacher was putting me down. But as he looked down at me, studying my face, he began to smile a big smile of recognition. “Wait a minute,” he said, “I know who you are. I see the family resemblance. You are a son of God.” With that he slapped me on the shoulder and said, “Boy you’ve got a great inheritance. Go and claim it.” The man looked across the table at Fred Craddock and said, “That was the most important single sentence ever said to me.” With that he smiled, shook the hands of Craddock and his wife, and moved on to greet the people at another table. Suddenly, Fred Craddock remembered. Not so many years ago the people of Tennessee had elected Ben Hooper as their governor
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 09:31:46
Eric in KS writes:
Who heard the voice from the Heavens? Only Jesus, Jesus and John, everyone? If the latter, why did it have so little effect on the rest of the hearers? Why do the baptisms we perform seem to have so little effect on the candidates and those who witness them?
"he saw the heavens torn apart..." I really think this was a theophany only for Jesus, the people, hopefully, would understand eventually on the day of the resurrection. This was a prefiguring of our Lord's passion (Can you be baptized with the baptism that I will be baptized with?), death, and resurrection. This moment was the unveilng, for Jesus, of his mission. The reading in Year A, suggest the Isaiah consciousness of Jesus; but here Jesus's mission is grounded in the creation story, the moment when the formless void and waste become ordered and alive with the Spirit of God. This is what our Lord's mission and ministry will mean for those who receive him.
tom in ga
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 11:40:03
My brother tom in ga wrote....
"'he saw the heavens torn apart...' I really think this was a theophany only for Jesus, the people, hopefully, would understand eventually on the day of the resurrection."
I've always understood this version of the story in this way ... but I got to working with it in relation to the psalm chosen to accompany this lesson in the RCL ("The voice of the Lord breaks he cedar trees ... the voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness") which would certainly suggest something a bit louder than a private whisper.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 12:14:19
jrbnrnc:
Thanks for the reminder of the Craddock story -- it's a great one. The entire text can be found in "Craddock Stories", edited by Mike Graves and Richard Ward, published by Chalice Press. Great resource. TDNinTX
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 12:27:58
to the parent of the 19-yr-old: There's no point in "discussing" anything with the girl's parents. They already know they are "right. ---David in OH
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 13:35:50
Eric
You seem to have a knack for asking the questions that I wish I had.
I wonder if the reason that baptisms seem to have so little effect on families is that people look at baptism as something that has to be done to "save" the child (I know-"what must I do to be saved?" "repent and be baptized") So people look at it as inoculation, something like the old smallpox vaccine.
But if the gospels are correct-baptism is about addition-in baptism, we are symbolically added to a community, and the gifts of the spirit are given for life within that community.
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 13:35:53
Eric
You seem to have a knack for asking the questions that I wish I had.
I wonder if the reason that baptisms seem to have so little effect on families is that people look at baptism as something that has to be done to "save" the child (I know-"what must I do to be saved?" "repent and be baptized") So people look at it as inoculation, something like the old smallpox vaccine.
But if the gospels are correct-baptism is about addition-in baptism, we are symbolically added to a community, and the gifts of the spirit are given for life within that community.
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 13:52:22
Pulpitt in ND: I was planning a "remember your baptism" with the water in the font. I have used small seashells before, but I am going to borrow your flat marbles idea for this year...I'm stressing renewal, new beginnings, and recommitment. Thank you! And I am using the 'voice of God' idea submitted by Rev Karen in Ontario on the epistle page...Do we hear God's voice calling us to be disciples? RevJanet in CNY
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 13:52:27
Eric in KS
Now we can't marry the reading from Mark with the Psalm. We are going to have disharmony which will only make us think a little harder. I am reminded of an article Carl Jung did on "Personality" where he talks about the "daemon" (Spelling?) which is the voice inside of us which directs us toward our integration which we may either ignore or willingly embrace. It seems to me that for Jesus he heard this "inner voice" "this gentle voice of a dove" this still small voice of silence" as he came up out of the water. He knew who he was, and that is all that matters, at least for now..
Now regarding the other matter,one more contemporary, but very disturbing, regarding the way we experience baptism. I honestly don't think we live dangerously enough as Christians for our people to see the meaning of this "germ" with which they are now "infected" in the waters of the Jordan. We think of baptism as our entrance into the club (God's Club) and give it no more thought. I remember a story about a baptism in Chile where the priest says not "I baptize you in the name of ......; but I kill you in the name of ..... as the child or adult goes under the water for the third time in the name of the Holy Trinity. We need to find in our liturgies ways to make this even disturbing. Maybe removing the child's clothes (if young enough) and immersing him or her in water.
And parents need to understand that what they are doing is releasing this child into God; and the community needs to understand that they are to receive him or her (not just symbolically) as their brother or sister in Christ living dangerously in a world that has begun to expect no less of us.
tom in ga
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 14:28:41
Greetings. I am a fairly new pastor, I have preached probably 50 times, and I have never preached on baptism. As I have been looking at this passage, trying to avoid the eternal question of why Jesus had to be baptized, I am confronted with the strangeness of my own baptism. I was raised by a family that had a fierce loyalty to United Methodism, yet rejected the idea of infant baptism. They said they wanted me to remember it. One day when I was in the fourth grade, my mother told me it was time for me to be baptized. I was a beleiver, but I really had no understanding of what I was doing, or what this act was to accomplish. The pastor who baptized me explained the ritual and what would happen, but he did not attempt to explain baptism. Question: was I baptized into "believer's baptism", even though as a believer I did not know anything about the significance of baptism itself? And further, what value might my story have in relation to my congregation, where almost everyone was baptized as an infant? That lady preacher at the Methodist Church
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 15:11:58
To That lady preacher at the Methodist Church;
In the Baptism of Jesus, he was baptized into humanity, when we are baptized, we are baptized into Christ. In Baptism, what Luther termed "the Great Exchange" takes place.
It is not required to "understand" a Sacrament, otherwise they would be useless to all, for no one can completely comprehend the mystery of the Sacraments. Their worth is based on the backing of God's promises connected with them.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 16:00:04
Tom in ga wrote: "I remember a story about a baptism in Chile where the priest says not 'I baptize you in the name of ......'; but 'I kill you in the name of .....' as the child or adult goes under the water for the third time in the name of the Holy Trinity."
This is reminiscent of something I was once told ... that in some Christian communities in South America (I think I was told Argentina), the mother of a child being baptised attends the service in mourning garb because the child's former life is ending.
Pretty heavy stuff for baptism, eh?
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 20:58:27
Pr Del in IA Thank you for that wonderful story! Many of us can connect with those "blanks" in our family heritage but you shared it so beautifully! Great connection to what it means to be a member of God's family! Thanks! Grace and peace! MCW in West AR
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 21:02:54
The Episcopal lectionary reading from Acts (10:34-38) is an excerpt from a story that begins with the heavens opening in Peter's vision of a sheet full of clean and unclean animals. The story concludes with Peter baptizing a bunch of Gentiles AFTER the Holy Spirit descended on them. It seems that the Holy Spirit acts first, and we baptize only in recognition of that blessing. John says "I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." So Jesus does the baptizing, and we wash with water to acknowledge what already happened. This is kind of dangerous stuff for the church, since we want to control those we let into the family of God. Any thoughts on this? BOZ
Date: 08 Jan 2003
Time: 21:18:49
Rev. Gilmer - Me again - We are going to have to meet someday - both attended Perkins (now I'm back in seminary in OK at Phillips - where Craddock used to teach) and I am a candidate for Ordination in the Presbytery of AR. I have enjoyed your insights for a long time via DPS (along with many of you others) but we Pres folks are few and far between! The Holy Spirit is foreign to us as well but I have roots in the Pentecostal tradition (believe it or not) and used to attend with my Great grandparents and sing at their services when benches were knocked over and folks rolled around on the floors. The power of the HS is unbelievable but I too see the importance of seeing it as empowerment to go out and be in mission in the name of Christ. My local congregation is not that interested in that "radical" interpretation I share regularly but then again I am a "young Whippersnapper" (only in my 30s and I don't feel that young driving 3 hours to get to school, working full time and raising two little ones.) I like the idea of remembering our baptism - I might just really shock my poor old congregation. They don't pay me much so what have I got to lose (or maybe, hopefully, loose)? MCW in Mena, AR
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 05:31:34
One person mentioned that Christianity/baptism is disturbing and out to be. I agree. If you like to use illustrations from popular movies I suggest one from The Fellowship of the Ring. In that movie the hobbit young Frodo is complaining to the wizard Gandalf about his uncle Bilbo. Sixty years before Gandalf got Bilbo the hobbit (aka "halfling" because hobbits are half the size of a man) to go on an adventure. Hobbits don't do that sort of thing. They never take any adventure or do anything unexpected. Since Bilbo returned he has been labelled a disturber of the peace. I believe Christians should be disturbers of the peace as well. The life itself should be filled with adventure and unexpected things should be the norm for us. I am urging my congregations to officially become disturbers of the peace in our community and to find an adventure (ministy or mission) that will consume them. Mike in NC.
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 06:48:14
That Lady preacher at the Methodist Church,
You might wrestle with the Acts passage with regard to being baptized and not discerning what had happened. Water baptism does not a believer make. water baptism is an act performed by human hands. The spirit's baptism is an act of God his mercy and grace poured upon and into our lives. As this takes hold of one's life, both a sense of giftedness and blessedness is manifested in the believer. Until a person has some knowledge and appreciation for the acts of the spirit, one might question one's status with regard to actually being a believer. TN Mack
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 08:37:12
Last year I did a reaffirmation of baptism with the congregation and used the idea of the stones in water. I invited whoever wanted to participate to come forward. One at a time (small church!), I picked out a dripping wet stone, placed it in the palm of their hands and looked into their eyes and said "< name> son/daughter of God, remember the waters of your baptism and stir up the gift of God that is within you."
I believe I got the words from the UMC hymnal. I was not sure how my elderly congregation would take this, but to my surprise they loved it. For many it brought tears to their eyes as they really heard the words. For many, it was the first time in a long time that anyone referred to them as the "beloved." It was a powerful moment for me as well, having the honor of reminding them how precious they were in the sight of God. I plan on doing it again this year. Linda in NJ
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 08:43:09
In Genesis, it is the Word that speaks and the Spirit that broods, like a dove, over the waters of chaos bringing forth creation; and in Mark it is the Word enters the waters and as he is comes up out of the Jordan the Spirit-dove descends upon him announcing a new creation one which will only be known by those who receive him.
tom in ga
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 08:43:35
So what are we saying, that Jesus wasn't human before he was baptized? I think Luther was confused.
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 09:05:49
To the unsigned,
I don't think you can inferred that Jesus wasn't human before his Baptism based on my recollections of Luther's comments.
Remember that Jesus himself says that he must be baptized in order to fulfill all righteousness. Within the sea of people, he joins with all in the dirty waters of the Jordan. Baptism becomes a common denominator of the Kingdom of God. And maybe in our Baptisms it is we that become fully human in the sense of humaness that God intended for us.
In any respect, please don't attack Luther based upon my efforts to paraphrase him. We all struggle together for understanding.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 09:06:13
To the unsigned,
I don't think you can inferred that Jesus wasn't human before his Baptism based on my recollections of Luther's comments.
Remember that Jesus himself says that he must be baptized in order to fulfill all righteousness. Within the sea of people, he joins with all in the dirty waters of the Jordan. Baptism becomes a common denominator of the Kingdom of God. And maybe in our Baptisms it is we that become fully human in the sense of humaness that God intended for us.
In any respect, please don't attack Luther based upon my efforts to paraphrase him. We all struggle together for understanding.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 09:17:06
The comments this time are wonderful, expanding an idea I got from Leonard Sweet (see his sermon "Holy Hocus-Pocus" from 1997). I absolutely agree that baptism in the H.S. is our acceptance of the power God offers us through Christ, a power that terrifies most people. It takes a "breaking of the heavens" to get through our fears. I too see his baptism as when Jesus accepted his divinity.
That leads me to suggest that the 19-year-old might have a great discussion with his girlfriend, finding out whether her parents are referring to spirituality or theology. A lot of us (like in this forum) can sound pretty theologically arrogant, which is just as bad as the kind of "spiritual" arrogance fundamentalists claim.
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 09:29:42
I don't think my comments were taken, so I'll try again. Thank so many of you who have offered a helpful approach to the Baptism of the Lord. I plan to use them in conjunction with an old sermon of Leonard Sweet's ("Holy Hocus-Pocus," 1997)in which he talks of the Latin "hoc est corpus meum" = "this is my body" as the origin of "hocus-pocus" as heard by people who didn't understand. The Hokey-Pokey has similar origins, he claims. In any case, when you do the hokey-pokey, you "put your whole self in", which is the only way we can ever begin to know the power of the H.S. for our ministries. Everyone in the congregation needs that kind of commitment to know that power for her/his life.) As for the woman with the 19-year-old son: I think the son should sit down and ask his girlfriend what her parents mean by "spiritual maturity". Sometimes that's a theological arrogance, which most preachers tend toward, but sometimes it's a real, spiritual depth that an overly mental approach denigrates wrongly. CEinCO
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 09:32:24
I don't think my comments were taken, so I'll try again. Thank so many of you who have offered a helpful approach to the Baptism of the Lord. I plan to use them in conjunction with an old sermon of Leonard Sweet's ("Holy Hocus-Pocus," 1997)in which he talks of the Latin "hoc est corpus meum" = "this is my body" as the origin of "hocus-pocus" as heard by people who didn't understand. The Hokey-Pokey has similar origins, he claims. In any case, when you do the hokey-pokey, you "put your whole self in", which is the only way we can ever begin to know the power of the H.S. for our ministries. Everyone in the congregation needs that kind of commitment to know that power for her/his life.) As for the woman with the 19-year-old son: I think the son should sit down and ask his girlfriend what her parents mean by "spiritual maturity". Sometimes that's a theological arrogance, which most preachers tend toward, but sometimes it's a real, spiritual depth that an overly mental approach denigrates wrongly. CEinCO
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 09:33:34
The first Sunday of Advent we heard the OT cry, "O that you would tear open the heavens and come down!"
The beauty and power of that text is huge when we read that God did tear open the heavens and come down.
Epiphany is less to me about my own baptism as it is about God hearing that prayer, being true to his promise and we opening the gift we received at Christmas.
Some gifts we get at Christmas, like a pair of sox, we know what to do with. They come with no instructions or explanations. But THE Christmas gift is a little more like my new DVD player. I have one remote with the basics so I can simply play my DVD without much thought. But I have a second remote, very complex, with a bound instruction book, that teaches me how to get the most out of my new DVD player.
Epiphany to me is a reaffirmation of the gift - yes, he IS my Son - and a revealing about that gift. In a world where so many people wonder if God really is who the Bible makes him out to be and if he really follows through on his promises - the message that the Word is true is a tremendous message of good news to them. He is all that and more, and, he is true to his promises!
So for me, it's a bit too early to rush over that and into exploring our own baptism. I preach remembering our baptism every Sunday - reminding them the are the sons and daughters of God in a world that makes them feel like trash. I would like to linger longer on the proclamation from God himself - this is my Son!
Tigger in MN
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 11:04:59
To the unsigned, I think another way to talk about what happened was that John made clear that Jesus was blameless by saying how unworthy he was in regards to baptizing Jesus. Jesus didn't need to be forgiven of sin, but as he entered the waters of the Jordan he took on himself the sins of many and carried them to the cross. We then are baptized into Christ. That would be a better way to understand what Luther meant.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 11:05:44
I am considering a Baptism Rememberance service. Does anyone have any ideas on how to go about this? BT in IND
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 11:11:05
Well, thanks to all who responded to my request for help with my 19 year old son. You all gave a lot of good advice and were helpful to make me come to some kind of conclusion. While I would like to tell them to piss off, while I would like to have a meeting, but do realize they do "know They are right," I sent my son an e-mail suggesting he deal with it since he is 19, but that I would be willing to equip him as best as I could. I also suggested he hold on to what he believes.
As far as the Holy Spirit - I never heard any talk of the HS in the Christian Church (DOC). It was by going to the Methodist Theological School in Ohio that I learned of the HS. As mailine church, we often think the HS is delegated to charismatics and others. I think we need to claim the HS as the power which empowers us for ministry. God empowered Jesus. The HS empowers us. It is God with us. I will be affirming that we ALL have the HS. To be without the HS is to be a car with no gas, a nuclear plant without enriched uranium, an electric mixer not plugged in. The HS is the gas in the tank, the enriched uranium, the power in the plug. PH in OH Thanks again!
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 11:23:45
Why did Jesus get baptized? More particularly, why did Jesus go through a baptism of repentance?
I dealt with this in my sermon for Epiphany 1 last year (2002) -- we don't know what Jesus did for the 30 or so years before this event, other than his presentation in the Temple and that interesting incident when he was about 12 or so. So we really don't know what he might have been "turning from" ... but we do know that he was "turning to" the ministry given him by his Father. Perhaps this is why he submitted to John's baptism. Anyway, if you'd like to read that sermon you can find it at
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/baptism-a-rcl-2002.htm
This year I'm going to be working along the lines of God's loud cedar-breaking voice (the psalm image) as God speaks in each of our lives. But I'm not yet sure where I'll be going with that.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 11:32:11
Just a little tid bit I learned in my reading: the reason why we call this time of the year 'Epiphany' is because as our texts remind us, God was made known for the first time to Gentiles. First, it was wise men, then all people who believed in John's message, and soon the disciples. Not to forget we Gentiles as well.
Rick W. in Cali
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 11:37:33
What WONDERFUL, RICH conversation this time around! I have been a DPS-er (sometimes silent, sometimes contributing) for several years now, but I have *never* copied for my files as many contributions from all of you as I have today!!
Pr del in IA, tom in ga, Tigger in MN, among others: THANK YOU for fabulous insights! I would add one of my own (well, a borrowed one, actually):
I listen to the Lutheran Vespers radio program each Sun. a.m., w/ keynote speaker/storyteller/pastor Walt Wangerin, Jr. This past Sun., Jan. 5, he spoke about "sympathy"--"sin-pathos" in the Greek, meaning "feeling with" or "suffering with." He stated (I hope my memory serves and I paraphrase him well) that when "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1 was the text), Jesus, in the fullest possible sense, "sympathized" with humanity. If *we* truly "sympathize" with another, we leave our selves, in a way (our own perspectives on the situation) and *become* the other in order to feel *with* him/her, to see things from his/her point of view.
I'm relating all of that to the Markan Baptism text--that Jesus *became* human, *became* US in every way, even by way of the common denominator of Baptism, so that we in turn can become like him. And related to the "hokey pokey" reference, Jesus "put his whole self in" to our humanity, our world, even physically ("this is my body" / "hoc est corpus meum"), so that WE can put OUR whole selves in to life in Christ. He feels/suffers WITH us, so that we can learn to feel with him--feel the yearning for love and mercy in the world, feel the heartache longing for healing all around us, feel the needs of our neighbors and reach out to them willingly, also in "sympathy". And the "sympathy" will go on, around and around without end--a cycle of "feeling with" each other because God FIRST "felt with" US through Jesus.
Heidi in MN
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 12:27:41
PH in OH - bingo! on the "I'd never heard of the Holy Spirit" (or words to that effect) line!! It's exactly where they were in Acts, saying they hadn't heard that there was a Holy Spirit (19:2). How true of our mainline churches.
And the Spirit does move - I remember a sunrise service when a nice breeze blew. I felt a nice breeze, but the church almost doubled between that sunrise and that morning. People canceled plans to go to their "home" church and attended this little 20-member church. From that point on, they've been growing, have some children, have Sunday school, new carpet, and an actual ministry. I went back to do a funeral and one of the women said to me, as I marveled (I had to leave just as all this was beginning) at what's become of it, "and we didn't even have to DO anything! It just happened!" The church now has 30 - 35 in attendance every Sunday. This is a BIG DEAL for that church. Just because one woman at that Sunrise service noticed the breeze for what it was - the breath of the Holy Spirit (and I'd preached the week or so before on Ezekiel's dry bones) and acted on that knowledge.
A quote from one of my colleagues in lectionary study group - "faith becomes arrogance when we take the stance of absolute truth." God's intervention in our lives, whether an act of God performed in the flesh (Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine - Bill Mallard teaching someone I can't remember) - is about transformation, and it must inform our lives - Jesus' baptism, OUR baptism transforms.
I've been thinking aobut language (Acts' tongues and prophecies and Genesis and v. 11 of the gospel) and that God's language edifies and precious are those times when God's language visits us - intersecting our lives - and our response is worship.
Sally in GA
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 13:16:28
Over the centuries Christians have debated what baptism accomplishes, to whom it should be administered, and how much water should be used.
RX in TX (just a lay person who loves Jesus)
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 14:10:34
Someone (I think CEinCO) said, "baptism in the H.S. is our acceptance of the power God offers us through Christ..." I'm not sure exactly what the writer meant, but it sounds like baptism in the Holy Spirit IS our response, or is OUR response.
I would like to shift the emphasis back to God, and reassert that baptism in the Holy Spirit comes from God. It is certainly necessary for the Holy Spirit to be at work before we can respond, but I do not believe our response can be defined as the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Let me restate this by relating it to a scene from the movie, "Mary Poppins." In this scene, she, Bert, and the two children are riding on a carosel. Suddenly, the horses leave the carosel and they ride off into the countryside. Are we merely riding along on the carosel until we seize the opportuniy to go off into the countryside? Is the Holy Spirit inactive until we take the reigns?
I believe the Spirit acts so differently in different people that we cannot simply define baptism in the Spirit to be thus and so. For some, especially those caught up in hectic and fear-filled lives, baptism in the Holy Spirit may actually bring peace. Whereas to others, who live lives too peaceful, may find baptism in the Holy Spirit tearing them away from that peace.
The Holy Spirit works in different ways in all of us, for "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the power of the Holy Spirit."
Jesus is Lord. I am baptized. The Holy Spirit is working in me, and through me, and any tongues that are spoken ought to edify those who hear. I believe (at least I hope) this is true for all of us.
Michelle
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 14:22:36
I just have to say three things....not very briefly.
1. Everybody knows it was Good Pope John (XXIII) who said: "in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity." But if Martin, the earlier John (Wesley), and all the rest said it centuries ago, I guess that cannot be. I'm thinking that it was in fact Augustine, as someone mentioned.
2. My Grandma was baptized on the sly. Her mother was a Catholic, back in the late 1800's, early 1900's, when the walls stood higher than they do today. Her father was very much against her being baptized in the Catholic Church. Well, on a trip to visit relatives in Louisiana, Great-Grandma had Grandma baptized (as a child, not an infant). I call that the "pastor's nightmare," but the priest did conduct the baptism. Years later, as a young woman, my grandma began to take seriously her baptism. She pursued church membership and the Christian life, and when the time came, she raised her children in the faith, who raised their children in the faith. In a very real sense, I can say that I am a Christian today because a woman I never knew (my great grandmother) took and had her little girl baptized on the sly.
3. That being said, I don't think this feast of the Baptism of the Lord is primarily about our baptism into Christ. Of course, if we picked a feast for that, it would be Easter, or we could say that every Sunday, as a "little Easter," is a renewal of our baptismal grace, promises, commitment. In any case, the Gospel is about John's baptism of Jesus - which, oddly enough, is not Christian baptism! If John baptized for repentance, and Jesus was sinless, why was Jesus baptized? That was the big scandal/embarrassment in the early church; that's why John's Gospel almost succeeds in totally ignoring the baptism itself, never really narrating it. So what's the message? It's two-fold. 1) See Isaiah 42, with the many parallels to the Gospel - Here is my servant (not son), with whom I am well pleased, upon whom I put my spirit. Jesus is identified at the same time as God's Son AND God's Servant. Jesus becomes known to us as God's Son by his ministry as servant. (This is as close as Mark gets to telling any kind of Christmas story, but it's the same message - Christ is the truly human Son of God, from the beginning...) 2) Why did Jesus repent? My opinion: He repented, not of sin, but of his "old life," whatever his life was before the baptism. At this moment, he glimpsed ("*He* saw the heavens being opened...," 1:10) his own identity, his ministry, his vocation as God's Servant-Son. At this moment, he accepted the call to move beyond his private life to his public ministry, indeed his cosmic ministry, of salvation for the world through his cross - the ultimate giving of himself as servant.
So there.
Metz, Indiana
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 14:24:38
I just have to say three things....not very briefly.
1. Everybody knows it was Good Pope John (XXIII) who said: "in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity." But if Martin, the earlier John (Wesley), and all the rest said it centuries ago, I guess that cannot be. I'm thinking that it was in fact Augustine, as someone mentioned.
2. My Grandma was baptized on the sly. Her mother was a Catholic, back in the late 1800's, early 1900's, when the walls stood higher than they do today. Her father was very much against her being baptized in the Catholic Church. Well, on a trip to visit relatives in Louisiana, Great-Grandma had Grandma baptized (as a child, not an infant). I call that the "pastor's nightmare," but the priest did conduct the baptism. Years later, as a young woman, my grandma began to take seriously her baptism. She pursued church membership and the Christian life, and when the time came, she raised her children in the faith, who raised their children in the faith. In a very real sense, I can say that I am a Christian today because a woman I never knew (my great grandmother) took and had her little girl baptized on the sly.
3. That being said, I don't think this feast of the Baptism of the Lord is primarily about our baptism into Christ. Of course, if we picked a feast for that, it would be Easter, or we could say that every Sunday, as a "little Easter," is a renewal of our baptismal grace, promises, commitment. In any case, the Gospel is about John's baptism of Jesus - which, oddly enough, is not Christian baptism! If John baptized for repentance, and Jesus was sinless, why was Jesus baptized? That was the big scandal/embarrassment in the early church; that's why John's Gospel almost succeeds in totally ignoring the baptism itself, never really narrating it. So what's the message? It's two-fold. 1) See Isaiah 42, with the many parallels to the Gospel - Here is my servant (not son), with whom I am well pleased, upon whom I put my spirit. Jesus is identified at the same time as God's Son AND God's Servant. Jesus becomes known to us as God's Son by his ministry as servant. (This is as close as Mark gets to telling any kind of Christmas story, but it's the same message - Christ is the truly human Son of God, from the beginning...) 2) Why did Jesus repent? My opinion: He repented, not of sin, but of his "old life," whatever his life was before the baptism. At this moment, he glimpsed ("*He* saw the heavens being opened...," 1:10) his own identity, his ministry, his vocation as God's Servant-Son. At this moment, he accepted the call to move beyond his private life to his public ministry, indeed his cosmic ministry, of salvation for the world through his cross - the ultimate giving of himself as servant.
So there.
Metz, Indiana
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 14:39:31
For you theologians in the group it is interesting that the Holy Trinity manifests itself in creation story: God, Spirit, Word And in the Baptism of Jesus: Father, Spirit, Word. Do you think the revisers of the common lectionary were aware of this? Is this an opportunity for us to speak of the mystery of our life in God?
What is this dynamic, moving mission of God who creates and redeems, who forms and transforms, who creates and recreates, who brings us into life and invites us into eternity?
We may wish to speculate on the nature of God as he is in himself, but it is obvious that the way we truly know God is what he has done for us in creation and redemption - always moving out of himself and drawing all things to him/her.
Before us is the Creation Myth which bears witness to the experience of Israel becoming a people; and before us is the forshadowing of our redemption. One of the early Church Fathers said it this way: Blessed are those who enter the water with faith in the cross.
The Epiphany holds before us the Birth of Christ (Eastern Orthodox), the Baptism of Jesus, and the First Miracle in Cana of Galilee. They all point toward the mystery of the incarnation, the enfleshing of God in human flesh. The collect in the Episcopal Church for the Second Sunday after Christmas expresses it this way:
O God who wonderfully created, and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of human nature; Grant that we may share the divine life of him who humbled himself to share our humanity, your Son Jesus Christ ....
Here is the mystery that stands before at the beginning of Epiphany.
tom in ga
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 14:47:27
I think most of the time when baptism happens, infants or adults are just getting their heads wet (or are just getting their bodies wet). I think if/when/where "metanoia" takes place, it is not on command and it is not necessarily during a Sunday morning baptismal service. The baptism might mark a "metanoia" that has taken, or is taking, place in the lives of parents or of a person. But I am concerned that baptism is seen as a "magical" act that actually brings about a change or becomes, in and of itself, a vehicle for the Holy Spirit. I hope that the baptism marks and celebrates the desire to live by the Spirit of God that is being realized by the people involved. Without that seeking, that choosing, that awakening, baptism often leaves me feeling that I am just getting a little person's head wet. It is then a cultural act, and not a spiritual act. Brent in Pincher
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 14:50:14
Many thanks, good discussion here and on the episle site. Question: I am struggling with the connection of the stones to the water to the Spirit. I can't seem to get a grip on the right relationship here. Any thoughts? Nancy-Wi
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 15:49:07
Thank you for all of your insights on this text, especially the "hocus-pocus" and "hokey-pokey" connection with the revealing of Christ ("hoc est corpus meum" = "This is my body"). I am still pondering the heavens torn apart as Jesus emerges from the water. Here Jesus hears the voice from heaven "You are my Son, the Beloved." Meanwhile, through the rest of the Gospel of Mark, Jesus' identity is a mystery to his followers. Then, at the moment he dies on the cross, the curtain in the temple is torn in two, and a centurion (a Gentile) acknowledges for the first time "Truly this man was God's Son!" In both instances, the heavens and the temple curtain, what is torn is the barrier between the divine and the human. As in the "hokey-pokey" Jesus put his whole self into our humanity. His baptism led inevitably to his death on the cross, and the revelation of his message to all people. I'm thinking that the implication for us is that our baptism calls us to put our whole selves in to our life in Christ. At OUR baptism, the barrier between God and human was torn and we were called God's beloved children. Still working on this...
Thanks again for all your thoughts.
BOZ in CA
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 16:31:30
Nancy in WI, I see that BB in ILL already suggested "Lord, You have Come to the Lakeshore." It can also be found in the United Methodist Hymnal # 344. I was thinking of that very song when I scrolled down. lp in CO
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 17:34:48
As a Southern Baptist, and one who does not baptize infants, many of your comments hit me at an angle I am not accustomed to. The mention is made of young children who remember their baptisms, but for the most part, baptism in many of these traditions is not a memory except in observance of others' baptisms.
At the same time, I see some insights that have caused me to grow - to see the beauty of beginning life rightly.
Some of you may have read of the three Southern Baptist missionaries who were killed Dec. 30 in Yemen. One of them was a friend of mine. Kathy Gariety was a good Irish Catholic girl who, she was told, was baptized as an infant. However, when she joined the Southern Baptist Church over 20 years ago, she was baptized as an adult. This was her statement at that time.
"My baptism meant a new beginning. At my baptism, I was made aware of my faith being more than just a profession of faith, it was to be a life-time process. My pastor used the illustration of a butterfly and a cocoon (caterpillar) to show how death was necessary for my glorious new life to begin. He also emphasized the dying or 'death in Christ' that I was sharing in, symbolically in baptism. Baptism was something I sought out, to signify my belief in Christ. I felt very strongly the need to be baptized out of obedience."
Naturally, her death came as a shock to us all, but not to God. Kathy went to Yemen for the same reason she went through the waters of baptism - to obey her Lord as she believed He was directing her.
I don't know if this will apply to anyone's thoughts on the subject, but since your perspective has helped mine, perhaps her perspective will enrich your thoughts.
JG in WI
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 17:34:52
As a Southern Baptist, and one who does not baptize infants, many of your comments hit me at an angle I am not accustomed to. The mention is made of young children who remember their baptisms, but for the most part, baptism in many of these traditions is not a memory except in observance of others' baptisms.
At the same time, I see some insights that have caused me to grow - to see the beauty of beginning life rightly.
Some of you may have read of the three Southern Baptist missionaries who were killed Dec. 30 in Yemen. One of them was a friend of mine. Kathy Gariety was a good Irish Catholic girl who, she was told, was baptized as an infant. However, when she joined the Southern Baptist Church over 20 years ago, she was baptized as an adult. This was her statement at that time.
"My baptism meant a new beginning. At my baptism, I was made aware of my faith being more than just a profession of faith, it was to be a life-time process. My pastor used the illustration of a butterfly and a cocoon (caterpillar) to show how death was necessary for my glorious new life to begin. He also emphasized the dying or 'death in Christ' that I was sharing in, symbolically in baptism. Baptism was something I sought out, to signify my belief in Christ. I felt very strongly the need to be baptized out of obedience."
Naturally, her death came as a shock to us all, but not to God. Kathy went to Yemen for the same reason she went through the waters of baptism - to obey her Lord as she believed He was directing her.
I don't know if this will apply to anyone's thoughts on the subject, but since your perspective has helped mine, perhaps her perspective will enrich your thoughts.
JG in WI
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 18:04:18
Nancy-Wi There is a Song entitled Dios Esta Aqui in the Faith We Sing Hymnal #2049. (supplement to the United Methodist Hymnal). The English translation is God is here today; as certain as the air I breathe, as certain as the morning sun rises, as certain when I sing you'll hear my song. It is a simple Mexican hymn that is really quite pretty and it is appropriate for all occasions including baptisms. Also #583 In the UM hymnal, Sois la Semilla (You Are the Seed) talks about how we are the seed that will grow a new sprout, a star that will shine in the night etc...how it is our responsibility to be messengers of Christ...also appropriate for a newly incorporated member of the body of Christ. I hope these suggestions are helpful.
Angelic Residue...OR
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 20:13:12
Nancy in WI,
A few great Spanish hymns--- Pues si vivimos (when we are living) 356 UMC hymnal. "When we are living, it is in Christ Jesus, and when we're dying it is in the Lord. Both in our living and in our dying we belong to God. We belong to God" I had a renewal of baptism service inour evening service (which is in Spanish). One of the women began to sing this song spontaniously because I focused on the message of baptism as the reminder that no matter what we are God's own. My Spanish is limited but that message came through. Peace, Avis in KY
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 21:12:11
RevJanet in CNY,
I'm sure the "flat marble" idea is not my original thought... I know I tried clear marbles before... and well, they roll off window sills, counter tops, night stands and the like. So, the flat ones stay where you put them. Glad to share the ideas.
Regarding the Craddock Stories book... I own it, Craddock didn't put an index in it he thinks "preachers have become too lazy"... I don't where he gets that? (Just what page is that story found in his book anyway!) ;?)
Eric, you are pretty quick, I can't get anything by you... yep, go alone, if he/she doesn't listen... take the biggest friends you have...
Glad you're all out there again this week!
Thanks again and God's best to you all in ministry this weekend and this new Year of our Lord 2003,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 09 Jan 2003
Time: 21:14:09
Whoops that was supposed to read...
. I don't KNOW where Craddock gets that? (Just what page is that story found in his book anyway!????) ;?)
with grins
pulpitt in ND
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 01:36:15
I too am a "new" pastor and will be preaching my first sermon on baptism this Sunday. My first recollection of baptism was as a young boy (age 12) getting immersed in my Uncle Luke's creek while the choir sang. It was an image somewhat like the scene in "Oh Brother Where Are Thou?" It takes me back to a singular moment of being "marked" or being "sealed" in God's love in the presence of other church members who stood by the creek with me. Today, my reflection is on God's providence in my life and how good He has been to me. Thanks to all for helping me remember my baptism and giving this desperate preacher help with the sermon. Bill in NC
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 02:29:52
Water baptism is a picture, a symbol to teach us what happened to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Baptism is also like a wedding ring. A wedding ring symbolizes marriage, just as baptism symbolizes union with Christ. Wearing a ring doesn’t make you married anymore than being baptized makes one a Christian. In our culture, if a person, especially a woman, does not wear a wedding ring, you can almost assume that they are not married.
So it is was in New Testament times. If a person was not baptized, you could probably assume that he or she was not a believer. On this we must be clear: baptism is a symbol of salvation and only a symbol. But, like a wedding ring, it is such an effective symbol that it should never be taken for granted.
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 06:23:31
My thanks to you all for the hymn suggestions in Spanish. Now to on to pronouncing the words correctly!
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 06:36:49
Someone wrote: "Wearing a ring doesn’t make you married anymore than being baptized makes one a Christian."
and
"On this we must be clear: baptism is a symbol of salvation and only a symbol."
On this we must be clear, that the writer does not share with many of us a fundamental understanding of sacraments....
First, baptism does is more than "only a symbol." In that regard, remember the words of Paul Tillich -- "One should never say, 'only a symbol,' but one should say, 'not less than a symbol.'" (Dynamics of Faith, p. 45) This "symbol" is a sacrament, an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. It is an "effective" sign -- something happens in baptism; it is not merely a hollow ritual.
Second, the effectiveness of baptism is indeed to "make" the baptized a Christian. The person, by the grace of God and through the sacramental act of the church, is incorporated in the Body of Christ, cleansed of sin, and adopted as a child of God. Whether the person lives a Christian life is another issue (and a serious one which the church must address), but the person IS a Christian by virtue of the sacramental act.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 06:41:15
For anyone who is taking the track of how our knowledge of being loved makes a difference and how in baptism God affirms our status as his beloved child, the following story may be helpful.
www.cbn.com/living/amazingstories/lifestyle-demetri.asp
EB in KY
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 06:50:42
Dric, I saw at a church, A miracle is nothing more or less than the inbreaking of the Spirit. I think that is close, maybe someone has the exact words. I do not know who originated it. Nancy-Wi
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 06:51:35
Eric, I saw at a church, A miracle is nothing more or less than the inbreaking of the Spirit. I think that is close, maybe someone has the exact words. I do not know who originated it. Nancy-Wi
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 06:52:58
Eric, I saw on a sign in a church, "A miracle is nothing more or less than the inbreaking of the Spirit." I think that wording is close, as I am doing this from memory! I do not know who originated it. Nancy-Wi
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 07:58:18
I could use some help for a Memorial Service with the dispursing of ashes! Pastordave71343@yahoo.com Thanks ... keep up the good work ideas and thoughts
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 07:59:16
Thanks for all your imput on the text - each comment has caused me to ponder just what God is calling me to preach to the people I shepherd and serve. I have been playing around with the idea of baptism as "dying." this thought comimg from a sermon by Stan Saunders published in "The Word on the Street - performing the scriputres in the urban context." In the sermon Stan is preaching at the Open Door (a community of the homeless in Atlanta) before baptizing his son Carson - his sermon is titled "A Death in the Family." A brief quote, "for us, his death today is real, not just a symbol or an abstraction. This reality is tempered only by the hope we hold for what this death means. He will cease to exist under the powers of this world, and will be transformed and transferred to a completely new and different kind of existence." New eyes to see the world, a new family and a new Lord. It's a powerful and disturbing sermon that I think most of our congregations - not being homeless - cannot grasp nor tolerate. But one they need to hear. Sorry this is so long - I am long-winded in LA
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 08:18:26
In response to the dove posting. Doves are often thought of as peaceful gentle birds, but in fact are quite aggressive. I really like that idea and think that the image of the dove diving toward us is a wonderful image of the Holy Spirit. As I make my way through the world and all of its distractions, temptations and wrong choices, I want an active aggressive Holy Spirit at work, directing and guiding me. I need the loving force of acceptance as a beloved child of God propelling me forward as I try to live my life by the teaching of Jesus so contary to the culture. The Spirit makes a difference!
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 08:19:10
In response to the dove posting. this will be a part of my sermon... Doves are often thought of as peaceful gentle birds, but in fact are quite aggressive. I really like that idea and think that the image of the dove diving toward us is a wonderful image of the Holy Spirit. As I make my way through the world and all of its distractions, temptations and wrong choices, I want an active aggressive Holy Spirit at work, directing and guiding me. I need the loving force of acceptance as a beloved child of God propelling me forward as I try to live my life by the teaching of Jesus so contary to the culture. The Spirit makes a difference! Nancy-Wi
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 08:19:29
I ran across this and just had to share it.
Before performing a baptism, the priest approached the young father and said solemnly, "Baptism is a serious step. Are you prepared for it?"
"I think so," the man replied. "My wife has made appetizers and we have a caterer coming to provide plenty of cookies and cakes for all of our guests."
"I don't mean that," the priest responded. "I mean, are you prepared spiritually?"
"Oh, sure," came the reply. "I've got a keg of beer and a case of whiskey."
A happy buckeye preacher
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 08:35:47
As a Catholic pastor I baptize babies naked and afterward sprinkle the congregation with holy water to remind them of their own baptism. While I am sprinkling the parents dress the baby and then I return and anoint the child. Then I present the babe to the congregation and hand the child off to another member of the faithful as a reminder that we all are called to care for this child, especially their spiritual welfare and growth in the Lord Jesus. Eyes fill with tears when I hand the baby to the eldest parishioner or to a teenage hunk who has never held a child before. We all share through the communion of saints in our common responsibility to build up the faith of the church. Pax, old pastor in Iowa
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 08:39:07
In the United Methodist tradition, baptism is more than a symbol, it is a Sacrament, a way for God to convey God's grace upon us, "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace." An important point for me to remember is that in baptism, God is the one taking action. The pastor doesn't "do" the baptizing, the pastor is the facilitator, if you like. It is God, through the gift of water, through the promises of the baptized or the parents and sponsors of the baptized, the promises of the congregation and most of all, through the power of God that the sacrament is administered and received. God is the one at work in the sacrament. It's also helpful to remember that in the sacrament of baptism, there is a covenant - God accepts us through grace, and because of God's grace, we respond in faith and love. SR in NY
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 08:59:04
Dear 'old pastor', as a RC priest I think you should choose your words more carefully nowadays. I don't get the warm fuzzy's knowing that you are touching a naked baby, or that you look at your parishioners as 'hunks'. Just the thought of that gives me the willy's. I'm sorry if that sounds cynical but with all of the scandal in our church you only contribute to the controversy by saying such things. Please refrain from referring to other males as 'hunks' (it is quite innapropriate).
Mary (a Roman Catholic lay person in Iowa)
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 09:02:02
JG in WI - just how many So. Baptists are there in Wisconsin? Anyways, your comment reminded me of a good hymn in the UM hymnal: Brian Wren's "This is a Day of New Beginnings." It's #383 if you want to look it up. It will probably be an unfamiliar tune, but it's fairly easily learned.
Tom in GA - thank you for the prayer. I've got it in our service this week!
It's one of those weeks where I'm going in a bit different direction, so I just wanted to say "thanks" and to suggest to whoever might consider it the hymn above.
Sally in GA
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 09:18:23
Dear Sisters and Brothers, Take care with the "Hoc est Corpus Meum" material. I seem to recall something about a reformationist using this definition as a way of casting aspersions upon Roman Catholics and the celebration of Mass. I will try to find more information to share. And here is a interesting tidbit of information: Did you know that Aspersion also means a sprinkling with water, as in baptizing..." Hmmmm. Must be where the name for an aspergill comes from. (for us low church types, that's the thing that is used to sprinkle people with holy water) Truly, I am a font of useless information - the puns can go on forever! SR in NY
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 12:03:16
To the New United Methodist Pastor (sorry, i couldn't find your post the second time around.) Perhaps before you seek to preach on baptism you might want to learn what your denomination has to say about the meaning of baptism. You can read our statement at http://www.gbod.org/worship/articles/water_spirit/
There is also a great article in this month's pulpit digest written by Will Willimon on the subject of John's Baptism vs. Jesus' baptism. Worth checking out.
Hope this helps, I know you all have done great things for me this week.
God bless your sabbath, RevIsrael (Methodist in Macon, Missouri, just love the aliteration)
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 13:45:28
Eric in KS, Thank you! Thank you! Having grown up in the RC tradition, although now UM, too often people, clergy included, brush off "symbols" as if they were nothing! Symbols are realities! Symbols are in the very fabric of humanity. Thanks! lp in CO
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 13:56:36
Pulpit in ND, I've been toying with your idea for baptism renewal for a few days now. Several ideas struck me as I read your posting. One of those is that the rocks--those river rocks--werent't always smooth. They got there by allowing the waters to rush over them. I am going to have the congregation come forward and take a rock, return to their seats and really take a hard look at it. With the rock in hand, I will engage them in the sermon--the uniqueness, the process of smoothing out our rough edges etc. Thanks for the idea. lp in CO
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 14:10:05
For an understanding of UM baptism, the study book, "By Water and the Spirit" is an excellent resource. lp in CO
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 16:19:13
Those of you thinking along the lines of using the "hokey pokey" (originally "hokey cokey") ...
The following is from a British website that explores the origins of various terms and things:
=================
Why do we sing the Hokey-Cokey?
Hmm...... well ....back in 17th century Puritan England anything 'popish' or Roman Catholic was viewed with great suspicion and open to, at best, ridicule. The Hokey-Cokey, with its song and actions, is a mimicry of the Roman Catholic Mass.
In those days the priest faced the altar (not the people) and performed several actions as he consecrated the bread and wine at Holy Communion. The words of the service were in Latin. You put your left arm in ......etc was ridiculing the priest as he lifted his arms heavenward during the rite. You do the Hokey- Cokey and you turn around............ was when the priest turned to face the congregation with the host (consecrated bread) to offer it to them.
Ooooh, the Hokey-Cokey......... hokey-cokey is a corruption of the Latin words of consecration - Hoc est corpus: 'This is my body' (Note: many of the strange words and phrases of our language are corruptions of other languages introduced to our country over the years and few were educated enough to speak or understand Latin). Knees bend, arm stretch, ra-ra-ra....... knees bend is a ridicule of the genuflection (a kind of religious curtsey to the altar) of the priest, arm stretch is when he holds up his hands at the point of consecration in the service, and ra-ra-ra is just a mimicry of the Latin words and prayers they didn't understand.
Today, many people do not know the origin of the song/dance and just do it for fun, especially to teach children co-ordination (and their right from their left). Today, in England, the Roman Catholic Mass is said in English and is so similar to the Holy Communion of the Church of England that, sometimes, if you didn't know what church you were in............
====================
The site is http://www.peterborough.net/lifestyle/articles/whydowesay.asp
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 16:31:09
Sally in GA - I don't know how many Southern Baptists there are here in Wisconsin. Wiscosnsin is actually part of a two-state convention, Minnesota being the other state. There are 74 Southern Baptist churches in Wisconsin, 37 of which are in our little "association" in the southeastern corner. Some are fairly large (numbering over 500 members) with fabulous facilities while others are small groups gathered in someone's living room. The church I pastor has 50 on a good Sunday.
I love the title of that hymn. I can't seem to find it on the "cyber hymnal" site, but I'll look for it when I can see a Methodist hymnal. This theme is really all about "beginnings," isn't it... starting out right. I believe I have my traditional 3 points. John preached [1] Submission (repent and live a life that displays repentance)... [2] Savior (having repented, we need to be forgiven and this is provided by the Savior) ... [3] Spirit (the Holy Spirit empowers us to live the life righteousness).
JG in WI
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 16:37:31
Symbols help to make the invisible visible
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 21:17:54
As our nation prepares to go to war ... a war that may lead to WWIII ... we all need to be annoited or confirmed by God's voice of love. How else but by God's voice in us will we know how to address war in our sermons? Most of us don't want ours to be a "bully pulpit" but I feel in my inner spirit I must address this present darkness and chaos (Gen.text) and let my congregation know where I stand without holding up my opinion as superior to any of theirs. This is hard to do, because it seems the Lord is telling me to say the things I have prepared. What are others of you doing as a preacher in this hour of history?
UMC Pastor in AZ
Date: 10 Jan 2003
Time: 23:12:35
UMC Pastor in AZ. I am speaking on the need to "Seek Peace and Pursue it." In Canada a letter has been written to our Prime Minister which has been signed by an amazing number of leaders from our national Christian and Religious communities. The call for peace seems to be uniting people of faith. Our moderator has called on us, as churches and as Christians, to do something. Neutrality is not an option. I am going to use a quotation by Stephen Lewis. He speaks so passionately about how 800,000 Rhwandians died, how millions of Africans are dying for want of a few billion dollars in help, but when 3,000 so horrifically died on September 11th, $48 billion was immediately allocated, and about the same amount was added to the already $340 billion U.S. military budget. As Mr. Lewis says, it is just crazy. Indeed, it is insanity. Insanity can take many forms. Sometimes we drink too much. Sometimes we work too much. And sometimes we go about killing many people and distabilizing the world in order to find security. The second step in the Twelve Step Program is "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." Indeed, may God give us sanity. Brent in Pincher.
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 07:51:37
Some postings continue to draw the current national concern of potential war into this forum. I would recommend an excellent article to digest and ponder. www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0301/articles/weigel.html
As to this text, I am left with this Jesus coming out of the water. What has this meant to my faith and my relationship to Him? ARMY CH E, Ft Belvoir
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 09:01:41
Eric - thank you for the info on the Hokey P/Cokey. That was interesting.
As to the words of institution or "The Great Thanksgiving," I've had RC people tell me (and always as if surprised) that they say the same words we do. While I'm sure there are differences, it's similar enough for these folks to find comfort in the Sacrament (and to accept it when offered/served despite its being in a Protestant church).
It speaks to the true meaning of "catholic," and our inclusion in the eternal body of Christ.
Sally in GA
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 09:04:58
JG in WI - I guess it's akin to being "Missouri Synod" or "Wisconsin Synod" Lutheran in Georgia! Praise God for 50 at worship. We're in the same boat and we're METHODIST in GA, for crying out loud!!!! We're praising to get 40.
Sally in gA
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 09:13:30
Have a blessed worship tomorrow, all, and may the gospel be proclaimed boldly and may people respond in heart, mind, and soul in all our churches.
Sally
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 14:59:25
Nanci in WI - if no one has suggested it so far, a hymn we are gong to use next week with the call to the disciples is apparently a well-known melody in Hispanic culture. It is "Lord, You Have Come to the Lakeshore", in the UM Hymnal. It's also in the PCUSA Hymnal. kbc in sc
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 15:11:54
Mine's done...
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/bsermons/epiphany-1b-rcl-2003.html
Hope you all have a great Saturday evening.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 15:19:28
In my congregation there is a family that consists of a woman who apparently came into the UMC very reluctantly from the Baptist Church (I remember my baptism!"), her husband who was baptized three times (his Catholic father and Episcopal mother each had him "done" by their priest, and then when he met his wife to be, the mom-in-law took him to the Baptist church and saw to it that he was really baptized!) and three grown daughters who were baptized in their teens. (Dad says "When they were old enough to ask questions, I taught them the sinner's prayer and asked if they wanted to be baptized and forgiven. I told them this was their one chance.") I find myself preaching this sermon to them. kbc in sc
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 19:13:13
Thank you all for your contibutions this week. Lively discussion. In response to th preacher who asked about the rising tensions in the world. I have been thinking. In light of the recent developments of the military build ups, I have decided that my News Year's resolution will be to pray for peace. This may nor sound like a huge thing, maybe losing a few pounds would be better, I believe that the Holy Spirit is calling me to action, my action is to pray for peace.I would ask that you all join me in this resolution. It is my hope that it will have more power than any resolution of the United Nations or any legislation of the United States. I am not going to condemn the state of the world. I am not a pacifist. I am actively praying for peace. psinia
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 20:05:52
Thanks everyone for your insights, both on-topic and off. They've given me more stuff to think about when I should be finishing my sermon.
I'd just like to say that as a Christian, I've learned that baptism is more than a symbol, but that doesn't mean that symbols are unimportant. Symbols point to things that are greater than themselves. Symbols give us concrete anchors for our faith. As an American Baptist, that might be radical to say, but I believe it's true. Baptism for Jesus was a new beginning for His life in ministry, a confirmation of his Messianic identity and mission. Baptism for us is sharing in his death, and resurrection...and his mission as well. baptism is a new beginning for us, a milestone marked "1". After that, our life as Christians truly takes off in the direction it was intended to go. With each step we see how much more important that first marker was in our journey of life. IMHO
P.S.: Thanks to Mike in NC for the Lord of the Rings reference. Tolkien's LoTR was/is heavily symbolic(there's that WORD again!) of the Christian faith. He and his friend C.S. Lewis have been a source of inspiration for me since the time when I just thought their stories were just...stories.
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 20:47:40
FYI: Ben Hooper in the Fred Craddock story was governor of Tennessee in the early 1900's. He died in 1957. Just don't speak of it as if it Craddock was in Gatlinburg a few years ago with him!! Preacher/lawyer in VA
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 21:14:59
Hi Folks,
I know it's late...
but here's what I'll say tomorrow before I invite folks to take a "stone"...
"Today is Baptism of our Lord Sunday... it is the day we remember our own baptisms... in a few moments you will experience God's love once again in a symbolic way. Someone asked me the other day, if I was going to do that "stone thing" again this year... would I have stones for people to take from the waters of the baptism font?" The answer was sure! I'll do it every year... As we remember our baptisms each year, I'll do this. It's become a ritual for me as your pastor. Now, If you don't have a stone to remind you of God's love for you...take one, if you've already gotten one... but have misplaced it... feel free to take another one. If you know you have one and you know where it is... take another one... and give it to a friend and look them in the eye and say.... " Rick, you are a child of God, and God wanted me to tell you that God loves you just the way you are! As we sing the songs of baptism... some old, some new... feel free to come forward and dip your hand in the cool water and take out a stone, kind of like this one. This one has a nick or two on it, it's not perfect... none of them are, and neither are we... They are round... to remind us of the circle of love that we're all a part of, they are multi-colored, multi-shaped, and so are we. You can either put them in your pocket - so you'll always have it with you, or on your desk at work, or in your locker at school, or by your bathroom or kitchen sink or on the dresser in your bedroom. These stones will not roll away, no matter what happens to you... they are but a reminder of God's love for you - and God's love won't ever roll away from you either. Each one of these stones is as unique as each of you. The sun might shine on them, or you might see your reflection in them. You can read better with them. Objects look bigger and clearer if you lay them over print or a picture. God's love is revealed through you. Today, take that stone and remember your baptism as a Child of God and be thankful. Let us pray,"
pulpitt in ND
Date: 11 Jan 2003
Time: 21:36:33
ARMY CH E, Ft Belvoir. I read the article. I is very good. Thank you for pointing it out. It has caused me to rethink my position on the current global situation, and to the government of the United States, who might be acting with a "moral obligation and a political responsibility." Thanks again. Brent in Pincher