Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 10:57:31
:38 He answered, "Let us go on to the neighboring towns, so that I may proclaim the message there also; for that is what I came out to do."
It seems from this that this is the mainthing. I heard the phrase the other day it went something like this. The mainthing is to keep the mainthing the mainthing. Sounds like that is what Jesus is saying the mainthing is not the healing but message of the new Kingdom. Nancy-Wi
Date: 1/28/2003
Time: 10:23:19 AM
I don't know where I'm going with this text yet this early on, but I had to laugh that as soon as Simon's mother-in-law is healed by Jesus, she starts waiting on all the men! You'd think in her condition, one of the guys might have helped her get some nourishment into herself first! Probably says more about the culture of the day than anything else, but maybe there's also a word in there about those who receive Jesus' healing turning around and sharing life with others. GB in MI
Date: 1/30/2003
Time: 6:41:12 AM
The lectionary text picks up in the middle of a very busy Sabbath day. Jesus has been to the synague to teach and heal there. You would think he would take the next day off like many modern preachers, but no. After the setting of the sun (the next day for them) there he is healing the mother-in-law and then later the crowds that showed up. After that you would think he would take a day off, but no. He rises early for prayer work and then announces the beginning of a preaching tour. We see a Savior with a work ethic.
Mike in NC
Date: 1/30/2003
Time: 6:49:39 PM
Since Jesus was going to the house of Simon anyway, it seemed right to heal Simon's mother-in-law. It seems unreal for her to start serving them immediately afterward. But whoever brought all who were sick or possessed with demons to Simon's house that night for Jesus to heal were inconsiderate. Jesus' main purpose was to preach and teach. He needed a break. He had a long day.
Date: 2/1/2003
Time: 8:44:24 AM
GB in MI Yes being cured and then waiting on everyone is funny glad you pointed it out! I agree cultural, however it is also an affirmation of complete healing since the ability to serve was a measure of worth and self esteem. Have you read the Red Tent? I'd love to know how culturally acturate that book is. It was fun to read. Nancy-Wi
Date: 2/1/2003
Time: 8:47:32 AM
I am centering this service on hearts, and mentioning the story of St. Valentine. It seems like sometimes the healing of the body, does not seem to heal the mind. Any thought on this. Reading this I have to keep thinking "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy!) I don't need to be reminded to work and I bet that most here don't either. Nancy-Wi
Date: 2/1/2003
Time: 12:42:41 PM
Where in the heck are you, don't you know you are needed, everyone is looking for you!
Jesus needs time apart, time for prayer, time to talk with his Father. Without this time apart, Jesus would be unable to meet the demands of those who come in search of him.
We need to recognize this same time apart for ourselves. None of us can minister unless we spend time in prayer and contemplation. Hopefully all of us make a retreat or two during the year to listen in silence to the one who speaks to us in silence
May we not be like the rest of our culture who defines their self worth in terms of their "doing" instead of their "being"
tom in ga
Date: 2/2/2003
Time: 12:23:58 PM
Two points: 1) Jesus brings healing to our lives that we may serve Him. 2) healing is secondary to proclaiming the gospel message. It merely gets the attention of people that they might listen to the proclamation. PH in OH
Date: 2/2/2003
Time: 5:42:18 PM
Regarding Simon's mother-in-law immediately getting up to serve: I believe I heard or read recently that she was very likely the ranking female in her household, and that it would be an honor (not a burden) to serve her guests. Thus, for her to be healed and serve them immediately isn't, as in our culture, an imposition on her; rather, it is restoring her to her honored position. Regarding: healing vs. teaching. PH in OH, I'm not sure I agree with you that his healing was secondary to his preaching, and that it was for the purpose of catching the people's attention. For Mark, clearly, Jesus as teacher is primary; however, his healing IS part of his teaching (i.e. today' incident in the synagogue), and being healed is part of their experiencing the message that Jesus is teaching. JE in NE
Date: 2/2/2003
Time: 6:34:55 PM
Ph in Ohio, I like your first point about Jesus healing us so that we can serve him. I am repairing hearts(construction paper hearts) and this maybe how I end it. What do you do with a healing heart, learn to serve and heal others. Early yet. (hey, last week I printed my sermon out with only 5 mins to spare and the DS showed up to worship. Boy, do I know the authority of Christ! The discussion was so good I had a heck of a time focusing in!) Nancy-Wi
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 4:17:57 AM
I think we as pastors need to deal with "demons" and not always skip that part of Scripture. Vs. 39 indicates that proclaiming the message includes dealing with demons. Sam in Nairobi
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 7:12:53 AM
This scripture reveals that the disciples had families and all the accompanying responsibilities. Simon's mother-in-law was sick and in bed with a fever. When Jesus was told about her he went to her, took her by the hand, and lifted her up. She was healed and she began to serve them. Is Jesus' response to Simon's M-I-L a model of his ministry to the sick? He went to her, he took her by the hand, and he lifted her up. Has Jesus not done the same with us? Consider the hymn "Precious Lord, Take My Hand". Simon's M-I-L's response is also a model for us. After receiving Jesus' healing ministry she got up and served them (him). This is a model of response for all disciples: we are blessed by Jesus and respond by becoming disciples and serving him.
That evening Jesus ministered to all who were sick or possessed with demons. There might have been a significant number who were sick, but how common was demon possession? The demons knew who Jesus was and he did not allow them to speak for this reason. This seems significant, but I don't know what to make of it or what to do with it in a sermon.
Jesus actions the following morning are also instructive for disciples today. He got up and spent time alone with God in prayer. Jesus sets the example of the care-giver taking care of himself. Steven Covey refers to this as sharpening the saw. A woodcutter can work hard all the time, but he will wear himself out if he doesn't take time to "sharpen the saw". There are those who see taking time to care for themselves as unproductive, but Jesus sets an example here. Previous comments refer to Jesus' work ethic, but I wonder if he would have been able to respond positively to the crowds who were seeking him out had he not taken the time for himself.
Jesus' ministry was to "proclaim the message." It appears to me that he proclaimed the message through word and deed, so that his ministry of "exorcism" was part of the proclamation and not something extra.
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 8:01:50 AM
I agree with those who pointed out the time Jesus took apart as his own "Sabbath." He (and we) needed to reconnect with the Source so that his batteries would recharge and he could again minister to others. That is why many of us take Monday's off. Obviously not any of us submitting today tho! MW in West AR
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 8:44:42 AM
I just have a little food for thought about the comment about the fact that Simon's mother-in-law went back to work. Jesus healed her completely so that she was able to return to her work immediately. When we are sick and get better, it still takes us a day or two to be able to do the work we did before we were sick, we have to get our stamina back. Peter's mother-in-law had it immediately.
Willy in VA
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 8:57:29 AM
I have never contributed before, but I have been reading contributions for a few weeks. Thanks to all for helping to stretch my thinking. As I look at this text I think Jesus models a perfect balance. He begins (in this passage) by healing those who are in need. He then takes some much needed refreshment time. Then, even though he could have stayed and healed more, he moves on to proclaim the message "for that was what I (he) came to do." So often, I think we as pastors and our churches try to do too much or lose focus of what we are here to do. I am serving a smaller congregation and we can't possibly do everything that needs to be done in this area. We need to leave some of those things to other churches, other agencies. But Jesus has modeled for us the perfect balance of being compassionate, taking time to be renewed, and then setting out on what one is called to do. Tell me what you think. Bruce in WI.
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 12:05:48 PM
Back to work
I am a mission developer for the ELCA up in Michigan. I see in this text the chance to lift up two very crucial points: 1) that we all need a break and can be overworked, even Jesus. and 2) when the break is over it is time to get back to work. I really appreciated the statement made earlier about the "mainthing" being the spreading of the message of Christ. In our culture, especially in my context of a mission church, it is very easy to get caught on numbers attending or money given rather than people reached. This helps to put things into perspective. Vicar Matt
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 1:43:37 PM
Sam in Nairobi -
Please say more about dealing with demons. You are ministering in a country where the spirit world is much more of a reality to people than here in the US. I am interested in your perspective on the treatment of this issue.
Tigger in MN
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 1:52:25 PM
Early in the process I am all over the map.
1. The healed woman receives a benefit of the Kingdom of Heaven being at hand (actually holding her hand) and then gets up and serves. The congregation seeks to reflect the at hand K of H by receiving its benefits. But we don't just get the privileges of membership and then go home and then come back a week later like the church is some kind of filling station. The church exists to send servants out into the world, not to cloister ourselves against the world. Sometimes we need to be recipients of the church's ministry but mostly we are to be doers of the church's ministry.
2. Jesus came to do the Easter thing. But first he spent years preparing us for Easter by pointing out to us that the K of H is at hand. All of the miracles, all of the sermons, all of the arguments, all of the relationships, all of everything Jesus did was to point out the fact that the K of H is at hand. The teaching and the healing are essentially the same thing -- revelation of the imminent presence of the K of H. It is here, not off somewhere in space and time, but here...now.
3. Regarding the casting out of demons; I am a mainline Protestant Christian so I am as uncomfortable addressing the demon stuff as anyone. But I find it interesting that Jesus deals with demons in a manner very different than his usual m.o. He does not use argument or coals of kindness or persuasion or anything other than raw brute authoritative power. "Shut up and get outta here!" Now, what does this say to we Christians who have been so versed in embracing the position of the underdog because that is who Jesus and the epistle writers were dealing with but we (Westerners and U. S. Americans) are now in a position of hegemony and unprecedented power, wealth and strength? It can be argued that appeasement, negotiations and persuasion is fruitless when confronting blatant evil (recall Chamberlain's deal with Hitler). Does anyone infer where I'm going with this? Dare we talk politics on DPS?
Fool For Christ
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 1:54:41 PM
I see healing as a part of God's love for us. I see serving as a response to God's healing love. God using healing to get us to serve appears to me to me more a human act of manipulation
Shalom
pasthersyl
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 1:57:47 PM
Bruce in Wi I serve 3 small churches in Montana, I moved here in June of 2002 from Wisconsin. I servered a medium sized church in Wis. This is a different ministry in many ways, but your point is well taken. There are only so many things that a small church can do, but how they live their lives as Disciples of Jesus can be a really big thing in a small town. And working together with other agencies or churches that have more funding and people available. Learning to "fill our own wells" is an important part of all discipleship, but especially in small churches where more than the same people are doing it all, because there just are not anymore. As pastors we can help teach by example - most of us are not so good at that. Spiritual Formation is VITAL. I think Jesus did it on a regular basis with his disciples. jmj in Montana
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 5:16:51 PM
I see this scripture as two sides of the same coin. Not only did Jesus heal the woman and she in return began to serve him. Also,,, Jesus allowed himself to be served in love. If we are to be Christ-like, we are to allow others to serve us and for Christ to serve us in love. Most of us do a much better job serving than we do in allowing ourselves to receive service. The truth is in the relationship between us and Jesus. Jesus used to analogy of marriage many times. And as you know, any marriage that is completly one sided is in big trouble. Ruby Nelson St.Paul's UMC Beaumont, Texas
Date: 2/3/2003
Time: 7:10:53 PM
I was talking with one of my church elders today and so we talked about the lection. She noted several things. I mentioned, "Everyone is searching." She pointed out is was probably not everyone, it just seemed that way. She also thought that part of Jesus' prayer time was spent receiving the guidance that he should move on to the next town. PH in OH
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 3:39:04 AM
I am main line as well, but I am not afraid to cast the word concerning Demons. For 1900 to 1950 years ministers have always preached about Satan and Demons, and their pending doom. Why in the last 50 years do you think that all of a sudden we don't have to deal with preaching the whole truth of Scripture, and that we war not just Flesh and Blood.
Last Sunday I used the text preceeding this one where Christ cast the demon out of the man in the synagouge who confessed he knew Christ. I had a lady tell me that she was glad to hear that a minister today would see preach God's word. The interesting thing is that she said it was the first sermon she heard in 40 years, since she left cuba, that did not try to explain away demons.
In this pasage Jesus holds the demons silent, because they knew who he was. That is the question we must ponder, as to why.
Grace Peace and love Clint Stockton First Presbyterian Church, Homestead, Fl
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 5:45:13 AM
We have not talked about demons because science claims to have an explanation for them. The truth is that science does not have all the answers. God does. PH in OH
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 6:11:48 AM
Three times in this passage casting out deamons is mentioned. Twice it speaks about healing the sick. After spending what I see as a considerable amount of time healing and casting out demons Jesus breaks away out of sight to pray. His next announcement is it's time to move on, "Let us go on to the neighboring towns, so that I may proclaim the message there also; for that is what I came out to do."
Had the healing and casting started to over shadow the message? I tend to think it could have. Maybe Jesus saw it that way too in his prayer time.
The statement, "Everyone is searching for you." is something I see from people today when they need healing or something bad (evil) has happened in their life. And if God doesn't fix whats wrong in their life all of a sudden He is the bad guy.
Jesus' main concern was to get the word out that God was near and they needed to prepare themselves for the Kingdom. This is what should occupy all their time and energy, just being what God designed people to be - gifted souls made in love and designed to share love. Everything needed to take second place in their life. Jesus paid the price with his life for all the mistakes (sins) we have made of not living the life we were designed to live. Thats why demons possesed folks and could very well be the reason there was so much sickness in need of healing (just think of how often we make ourselves sick through worry etc.).
Where do we put our faith? What do we believe? These are the questions Jesus knew were the most important issue humanity had to face. I have seen healing of souls when their body was waisting away because they have turned their focus to follow the great designer of us all and made love a priority. Boy this is a good Valentines message =) KB in ks.
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 6:15:19 AM
This is in response to some of the comments regarding self-care and work ethic. It is unfortunate that many are looking at this issue as an either or situation. The problem is, we become out of balance if we stress one over the other. What is disturbing to me is that many seem to think a work ethic is a bad thing. My point with bringing this up is Jesus did not shy away from long hours and hard work. Perhaps that was a product of his upbringing as a carpenter. The saw does need to sharpened, but not if it isn't being used. How many of us have churches where former pastors let committees just slide with not meeting to work because it was just too much trouble? How many of our churches have gone without meeting through the week because it was just too much trouble to organize food and educational activities for all ages? How many of our parishioners have not been trained to witness in the name of Christ either in word or deed (work) because it was just too much trouble. I could go on, but that makes my point. It seems that today there is a significant amount of clergy that just wants to do the self-care thing. It is tempting and we can defend ourselves theologically. But Jesus had a strong work ethic and it was not a bad thing. To get his prayers in he got up early. When he was seeking solitude, he did let it go when he saw the crowds like sheep without a shepherd. The funny thing is I just got back from one of the self-care retreats. The message of eat right, sleep well, excercise and protect your own time is still ringing in the ears along with the scriptures about taking up a cross and following Jesus. Speaking for the off the wall theological minority...Mike in NC. Grace and peace!
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 6:35:39 AM
Dear Clint Stockton,
I don't think that we have become afraid to speak about demons in our preaching (they exist in my opinion). I tend to think we have evolved to a point that we don't want to give demons power from the pulpit. I would rather preach the message of the Good News Jesus saw as most important than give any ol'demon top billing.
Let me ask you, do you cure a sickness by telling folks just how sick they can become? Or by giving them a dose of something that will encourage them to get well? Jesus chose to dwell on the Good News. KB in ks.
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 7:27:41 AM
Two kinds of "beings" recognized the power of Jesus: 1. Evil spirits or demons; and 2. People who were ill, hurting, people who realized they had no control over their lives and their conditions. In order to receive the love and healing of Jesus, we must first admit that we are in need, we must admit that we are no longer in control. The first step of the 12 step program: "We admitted that we were powerless over our dependencies (substitute whatever ails you), that our lives had become unmanageable." 12th Step: Share the message with others. Let's first admit how much we need Christ - how little control we have - and then share the Hope and Love and Healing of Christ with others. Thanks for the reminder that this is the last Sunday before Valentine's Day. RB in LA
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 9:02:00 AM
Thanks to all of you who have helped me to wrestle with this passage and others. The frame of the text is clear. Healing of Simon's M-I-L so that she is able to serve. "Saved to serve." Retreat to reconnect with God. Both good points. This is where I begin to wonder about the message of the text. The next morning while Jesus is praying Simon is hunting him down presumably to heal more people. But Jesus answers "let us go on to the neighboring towns, so that I may proclaim the message there also; for that is what I came out to do." The congregation that I serve has issues concerning the neighborhood in which it is located. The once neighborhood church finds itself radically different than the neighborhood at present day. Some effort has been made on the part of the congregation to reach out to the neighborhood and minister to it. However the membership of the congregation has continued to age and decline. A situation that I know is not unique to this congregation. The consensus is that we should leave this place and move in order that we may grow and serve God better. Some have criticized the thought of relocating saying "who will minister in this neighborhood?" What I hear this passage saying is that Jesus was intentional about relocating his ministry from time to time in order to serve and reach other people. Sure there are people in our present neighborhood who deserve to hear the Good News, but very few of them have heard it from us for a variety of reasons. Is there anything wrong with moving so that our ministry will reach more people and further advance and bring glory to the Kingdom of God? I would appreciate any comments to help me think through how this passage relates to the relocation of a congregation. Grace and Peace to you all. IL Pastor
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 9:10:59 AM
Again, great discussion this week. Like many of you, I too don't know where I'm going with this text. Frankly, there is so much. A couple of themes do begin to emerge for me. One is restoration. Jesus restores physically, psychologically, and spiritually. For the demon discussion, there is certainly a casting out of the demons who are not permitted to speak, and the refilling with faith. There is also the struggle of demands by the crowds and the call to messiahship. The interesting thing to me is that Jesus is able to slip away and be on his own for a bulk of time. Does this suggest possibly the disciples are also involved with the healings and casting out of demons? If not, how in the world does Jesus slip away to get lost for some time? And, certainly the last piece that shouldn't be lost in the suffle is Peter's Mother-in-law. I don't remember the text saying anything about being taken by the hand. It almost seems like Jesus presence heals her. There is something to be said about her healing and servanthood. I'm overwhelmed at this point of the week, but there are certainly patterns to think about. Lynn in Omaha
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 9:21:29 AM
Tom in GA I think you are right on target. The issues of the busy sabbath, the healing of Simon's mother, and the need to go to another city are peripherial matters. The crux is the demanding nature of ministry and the need to draw apart from time to time for renewal. I also intend to draw from the imagery of the Isaiah passage of waiting upon the Lord and tie it in to the need for retreat. Our Minister's Convocation happens to take place this month so this is good timing. God, am I glad Jesus took time apart to visit a deserted place. I sure need to do the same. TN Mack
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 9:48:19 AM
A Word of caution about the demon theme,
I was diagnosed with epilepsy when I was only 15 years old. My parents, a father who was a Presbyterian pastor, and mother from a long line of good Presbyterian women, told me to be very quiet about my condition around my grandparents. Epilepsy, still in the 50's and 60's could be viewed by some living in the dark ages as a form of demonic possession. So I would hope that those DSPer's out there who are focusing on the "casting out demons" theme, be educative in naming what we today know that are not demonic possessions, i.e mental or physical illnesses. BB in IL, still on meds for epilepsy but thankfully seizure free.
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 9:54:55 AM
Like with so many scriptures, there are several avenues to take. I like the part were Jesus tells Simon that they must be on the move. His mission is to preach and proclaim the kingdom of God. All this healing and removing demons is important and good, but not the central part of what Jesus feel he need to be about at this time.
I am concentrating on prayer. Jesus's prayer life was not always filled with what we think of prayer: solitude, peace, quiet, reflection, intercession, and being in a place of sanctuary. Jesus's prayers were full of sweat and tears and that is should be a comfort to those of us who also struggles with life's situations. The Good News is basically "If it is good enough for Jesus, it is good enough for me. CRP
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 10:02:29 AM
Martin Luther urged that we not honor the devil with too much time or attention. Indeed he writes, "But I resist the devil, and often it is with a fart that I chase him away." (Table Talk. page 16. Fortress Press.) Luther acknowledged the devil's existence quite matter of factly and even flippantly. But he had real understanding of the devil's influence on world events. Can we, should we be more candid about demons without giving them too much undue attention or even unintended reverence?
Regarding the rest Jesus took, is that really included to make the central point of this episode an exhortation to take vacation time and see to our need for self-care?
Fool for Christ
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 2:59:17 PM
I just came upon a book entitled "They Shall Expell Demons" It's by Derek Prince
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 3:58:52 PM
The town of Capernaum did not come to Jesus because they loved him; they did not come because they had caught a glimpse of some new vision. Bottom line they wanted to use Him. Doesn’t that sound familiar? There is always a danger that we can seek after God and His Son for consumption purposes. But Christianity is not for consumption but production. Jesus is not someone we turn to only when life is messed up. Jesus' commission is to "go" - to be producers of faith not consumers.
Jesus came to usher in the Kingdom. He came calling us to repent and believe. Certainly healings will follow the good news. But that is not the totality of Jesus’ ministry. It aint the "mainthing." When Jesus left Capernaum Mark tells us that, “he went throughout Galilee, proclaiming the message in their synagogues and casting out demons” (Mark 1:39). His proclamation of the good news, and His exorcisms went together. He was a man of words and action.
This doesn’t mean we are to give up on the possibility that Jesus will heal our infirmities. He can and He will. Some healings will be immediate some will take longer (when He returns). But let us not forget the mission of Jesus and the ministry that He left for us to accomplish. Jesus was about providing a new vision. He came with good new – great news – phenomenal news – stupendous new – totally spectacular awesome and extraordinary news. He came to direct us to God and the Kingdom and the radical transformation that is possible to every person that truly believes. Pastor John in CT
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 6:03:50 PM
Demons: C.S.Lewis in the Screwtape Letters puts the issue into focus. Read the intro/preface. Peace be with us. Hal Murray, CHS, Annandale, NJ
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 6:03:57 PM
Demons: C.S.Lewis in the Screwtape Letters puts the issue into focus. Read the intro/preface. Peace be with us. Hal Murray, CHS, Annandale, NJ
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 7:07:17 PM
BB in IL, I would like to think that I can imagine the stigma that you might feel given the fact that Mark 9:22 the boy sounds everything like an epileptic although Jesus identifies it as an "evil spirit." We like to think of ourselves more sophisticated than the people of Jesus' time. Even if Jesus had used the word epilepsy and healed the boy instead of casting out the "evil spirit", that would have confused the ancient mind. Jesus did what Jesus had to do. When you talk about being educative, what's wrong with saying that we all have our demons to exercise. Does having demons needing to be exorcised place a moral judgement on our personhood? I guess there is a sense that some of our demons are not of our choosing as no one would choose to have epilepsy. Jesus could name the demons giving him the power to cast them out. What is a diagnosis other than naming the demon or evil spirit? How would you have us to be educative in a way that shows biblical integrity? As I push you on this, be assured that I appreciate your struggle with this issue. You have a personal experience that many of the rest of us do not. TN Mack
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 8:12:17 PM
Regarding demons: Deliver Us From Evil by Don Basham is a handbook. Deliverance from Evil Spirits by Fancis MacNutt is a practical manual.
Before you totally turn off and ignore me, I, too am a main-line protestant. Unfortunately teaching on this subject has been very lacking in our churches and we don't know what to do when confronted with demons or demonic influence. It's time we reclaimed this area (1/4 of Jesus ministry).
No, I don't want to give pulpit time to evil. But it has to be addressed or we all remain ignorant. Yes the message is important. Yet it is not important enough to the writer of Mark to give it much space. He almost completely ignores the content of Jesus teaching and focuses on what he DID and on the response of the people.
In 3 of 10 verses the writer of Mark talks about demons. Maybe we should too.
mck
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 8:22:08 PM
Oops! I forgot to say that spiritual matters are spiritually discerned. Demons are spiritual beings and so can discern Jesus holy position. (It is in stark contrast to the scribes and Pharisees who are supposed to be the spiritual leaders of the people but who refuse to discern the truth.) mck
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 6:25:29 AM
thanks to all for the thought provoking observations. I've been in a newly formed multi point ministry for six months now. We have just scheduled a visioning conference for early April, and I think this Scripture will work nicely as an invitation to follow Jesus and keep the "main thing the main thing". Jesus gives us the "vision" of the church in one succinct sentence in v38. Our task is to decide how we respond and participate. Blessings KN in LN
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 6:32:09 AM
Wow! Lots of stuff here and it's only Wednesday.
A work ethic is only bad when we derive our worth from our work and all that we accomplish. Our worth is as children of God and we do nothing to accomplish that. I don't think Mark is describing Jesus' hectic day as an example of the kind of life we should lead. I think he's describing the kind of days that Jesus had as a matter of fact. I think the time apart to pray is significant, a battery recharge that he needed after a long hard day.
As far as demons, I read the following last week regarding the man released from the unclean spirit last week:
"Looking at this historical context for the unclean spirit helps move us away from interpreting this story too closely to our own world views in ways that may not be helpful or appropriate. For example, we might imagine that Jesus heals a schizophrenic man or someone suffering from another form of mental illness, assuming that Jesus 'fixes' him. This gets us into the complicated area of interpreting what is 'normal' and whther or not Jesus is in the business of making someone 'normal' when the story's context doesn't point in this direction. The story we hear today is an encounter with evil, not an encounter with illness.
"There is another aspect to this detail of the story. Possession by an unclean spirit made a person ritually unclean. They could not go to the temple or participate in religious festivals. Since only the clean could be considered righteous and near to God, to be unclean was to be separated from God as well as from family and neighbours.
"Uncleanness, for the most part, was a temporary matter. After a prescribed time or after performing cleansing rituals, a person was rendered clean again. People became unclean temporarily all the time so that food could be prepared, the sick could be tended, babies could be born, and the dead could be prepared for burial. There is a significant distinction, however, between temporary uncleanness and long-lasting dissociation from community, such as the man in today's reading is depicted as having experienced. In healing this man, Jesus' authority reconstitutes communities and relationshp with God."
I don't think healing and release from possession was secondary to proclamation, it is part of the kingdom coming near. The prophets described that day: "the LORD has sent me to bring good news to the oppressed, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to the prisoners" (Isa 61.1); "The eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the speechless sing for joy" (Isa 35.5-6); "On that day the deaf shall hear the words of a scroll, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see. The meek shall obtain fresh joy in the LORD, and the neediest people shall exult in the Holy One of Israel" (Isa 29.18-19).
It's also interesting that when the disciples find Jesus praying, they tell him he's still needed in Capernaum, but he goes on to other market towns in the area. He wasn't able to help everyone who was in need. He was one man in one body, couldn't be everywhere at once, didn't heal and cleanse an entire town, then move on when his work there was done. Some people might have been disappointed but Mark shows Jesus maximizing the impact of the message he had to proclaim by moving on.
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 6:36:11 AM
TN Mack
Did you mean to say that a person with epilepsy is possessed by an evil spirit?
Or did you mean to say that evil spirits don't exist, they are just undiagnosed medical issues?
These are two swings of a pendulum with which we struggle, but the danger of each is clear. Suffering from a medical disease does not make one evil, on the one hand, and defining everything as a medical disease does not make evil spirits any less real, on the other.
It is devastating to a person suffering from epilepsy to hear that others believe it is the work of an evil spirit, because, implied is the assumption that if the person only has enough faith to let that evil spirit go (or to cast it out), the person will be well.
Paul spoke of an affliction that God chose not to heal. Was he also possessed by an evil spirit?
BB in IL described a problem with fear that it would be perpetuated. You seem to be perpetuating it. It is true that there is something evil about all disease, but to personify disease as demonic, particularly when we can point to specific physical causes, is disgraceful.
Also, please be careful with your language. I don't think you meant to say that we all have our demons to "exercise"!
MRE
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 7:22:21 AM
There was an excellent documentary entitled "Jesus" last year on A & E. I remember one of the professors, Bill Klassen, I think, saying that one of the main temptations that Jesus was figthing in the 40 days of wilderness was fame. Jesus sought solitude at the beginning of his ministry to wrestle with God and with himself to try to figure out how he would accomplish his mission. It was tempting to seek fame. John the Baptist had a huge gathering -- Jesus could have a large following too. In the end he did not choose fame (and indeed, his following was smaller than john's). In this passage from Mark, Jesus is again tempted by fame. He could have stayed put in Capernaum and have everybody coming to him. Hundreds were doing so already. He didn't have to go to every god-forsaken village -- they could come to him. He could have used his fame even for God's purpose. But in the end he decided he could accomplish more if he walked away from the crowd and so he went to villages where no one had ever heard of him. "This is what I came out to do," he said. John the Baptist was famous and a servant of God so there is nothing wrong with being famous. The trouble is, it can quickly go to your head. John practised extreme discipline to keep himself humble. There is a certain element in most of us ministers that want to be famous. Perhaps not nationally famous, but at least well known for the good sermons we preach, or the good work we do. Congregations want their church to be famous -- renown for their mission and outreach work. There's nothing wrong with fame, but Jesus did not choose it. Perhaps we need to listen more clearly. Waht is it that we are set out to do? Rev. Karen in ONtario
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 8:08:53 AM
what is striking to me, is Jesus action with Penelope( I have decided to name her that because that for me gives her status, rather than an anonymous mother-in-law). I wonder how many of us Jesus is taking by the hand and raising up. If we are missing His touch, we might be missing the opportunity to respond to God's call to serve. Perhaps we would prefer to remain all "hot and bothered" (feverish) about the circumstances in our situation so we can blame others for our predicament. Wouldn't it be better to allow Jesus to take our hand as He proclaims the Kingdom is at hand, repent and do the will of the Lord. I'm with Penelope, it's time to get going.
Shalom
pasthersyl
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 8:09:01 AM
In response to TN Mack, I have a daughter who has a seizure disorder. Just as all mental illness is not demonic, neither are all seizure disorders. Some have organic causes and some we just don't know about. The same is true of any physical illness. Some may be demonic but we don't automatically jump to that conclusion. There are ways to determine what is and is not demonic.
Francis MacNutt has a wonderful book called Deliverance from Evil Spirits. It is a practical manual. Don Basham's book Deliver Us From Evil is a classic. These are both well balanced teachings on the deliverance ministry.
For the author of Mark it seems that what Jesus did and the people's response to it was more important than what he said. Mark almost completely leaves out the content of Jesus teaching and focuses on the action. In 10 verses, Mark mentions casting out evil spirits 3 times. Somehow, I think that makes it important. I can't ignore this subject and be faithful to the text. I can't ignore it and be faithful to the gospel.
As for how the demons knew who Jesus was: spiritual matters are spiritually discerned. Demons, as spiritual beings, were well aware of who Jesus was. It is in sharp contrast to the scribes and Pharisees who were supposed to be the spiritual leaders of the people who chose not to see what was before their eyes.
mk in ks
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 8:54:27 AM
Thank you to everyone for the thought-filled comments. I did demons last week, yes they exist but they come in all sizes, eg. possession as well as, alcohol, drugs, abuse, etc. They were receptive and seemed to appreciate my candid recognition of something they wondered about but couldn't talk about.
This week is Scout Sunday, while I would love to tie in the theme of service in Christ with the Scout motto or pledge, which ever. But, I think focusing on the prayer, respite, idea my be a positive approach. The church will have a lot of unchurched visitors. I don't want to dump on them, yet again, that they are to "be in serve" as Christians tend to do to non-believers. (A visitor--Whould like to be on this committee!?)
It seems that the hectic life of non-believers needs rest in Christ. But---Any suggestions for tieing this into Scout Sunday. (It will be a limited Scouting presence in the service itself with recoginitions of current and all past scouts. We will have flag presentations, church's first)
The presences of visitors who may not know God's love grips me with excitement and anticipation.
What can we do to make this place of rest and sacturary theirs?
Rambling but hopeful "my" wise and learned DP's will share ideas.
God Blesses me through the DP family and I thank God for you.
Lori in NC
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 8:55:25 AM
There seems to be much struggle with the understanding of casting out of demons. It's very obvious from the discussion that caution on practice and preaching is well advised. So, why the big emphasis on the casting out of demons? The New Proclamation 2002-03 on the textual interpretation says: It may be a stretch to hang that conclusion on a verb, but it is consistent with Jesus' self-revelation to say that the miracles of healing and exorcism (vs 32-34), signifying power over evil, are among the marks of the expected Mesiah and point to the ultimate healing of Jesus' resurrection and its triumph over evil." As far as the Messianic Secret, Proclamation goes on to say: "Jesus forbidding the demons, who recognized him, to speak further signals that miracles are intended to point beyond themselves (vs.34). This 'Messianic secret' passage is one among a number in which Jesus enjoins silence, scholars have concluded, because he did not wish to be identified with false understandings of the Messiah as a mere miracle worker." I think the other caution we need to take is to make sure Jesus is not portrayed as the "grocery god" who is nothing more than a miracle worker. It seems to me that Mark is giving us the understanding of the power and triumph over evil of Jesus and that he graces his people through these gifts. Lynn of Omaha
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 11:16:35 AM
Response to IL Pastor-concerns about whether your church should move or not. The text seems to point to looking at your ministry focus through prayer and retreat and guidance from God. Moving or not moving may arise out of the call of the congregation.
Response to the excorsizing of demons. I preached on that part of the text last Sunday. I am a Chaplain in a long term care facility. I listed all the ways we "Christians" look at evil...what is evil? Then I resolved it by saying that whatever evil is we may disagree but we can all agree that there is evil in the world. In some ways it remains a mystery. Is it evil that the shuttle expolded...yes. Does God allow evil...yes. What is the purpose of evil? Through a context of story and theology I left them with the thought that God allows evil so that this environment that we live in can be a soul-making environment. That we are not pets God keeps in the most agreeable environment possible. I focused on how Mark is telling the incident for the purpose of revealing the person and purpose of Jesus. For restoring our trust in the power of God over the convulsing writhing evil we witness in the world.
This Sunday I was asked to preach in my church as Julian of Norwich on the next part of the Mark text. Julian as an anchoress spent much of her time "apart" in prayer. What would this text say to her? Balance? Chaplain in Colorado
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 12:33:46 PM
TN Mack,
Of course Jesus didn't have the language to name the seizure disorder, but he did cast out a demon, perhaps the demon was something keeping the boy from living life fully. My demon around the stigma of epilepsy was the shame that I was made to feel from good "Christian" folks, like my family and church school education. Luckily, common sense made me totally suspicious that my epilepsy was a sign that I was unclean or that I was not somehow an adequate child of God.
Re: my encouragement for pasters to be educative, maybe the term 'sensitive' would have been more accurate. We come to church to hear the good news that we are accepted just as we are, with our faults, our illnesses, our mistakes and our so-called demons. As a pastor and a psychotherapist, I would hope that our job is not only to challenge and cast out demons but to remind them and ourselves that the Christ that healed so many, is now healing through the hands and the bodies of many courageous and bright medical specialists as well as many other people of faith. If I had to place my faith in miraculous healings of the supernatural phenomenon, (since I have never witnesses that kind of healing) then I would be much less faithful than I am now in knowing that God works through and with our failings and our current mythology, i.e. our technology. BB in IL
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 12:53:40 PM
Mack, I have a controlled seizure disorder, as well. I certainly do not believe that it was/is a demon. I'm not perfect--only God is perfect. I do believe, however, that our understanding of what is evil evolves. In that time of Jesus, seizures were not understood and labeled demonic. Jesus met the people where they were. As the Spirit dwells among us and continues to enlighten us, what is it that we would call demons today? I would hope that we are not stuck in a time warp. If Jesus were to walk the earth today, what demons would he be casting out? I apologize for being blunt, but you are not one who should address the issue of seizures. lp in CO
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 1:20:04 PM
EVERYONE IS SEARCHING FOR YOU Mark 1:29-39 (Fifth Sunday after the Epiphany) Analysis by Michael Hoy
29As soon as they left the synagogue, they entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30Now Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told him about her at once. 31He came and took her by the hand and lifted her up. Then the fever left her, and she began to serve them. 32That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons. 33And the whole city was gathered around the door. 34And he cured many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. 35In the morning, while it was still very dark, he got up and went out to a deserted place, and there he prayed. 36And Simon and his companions hunted for him. 37When they found him, they said to him, "Everyone is searching for you." 38He answered, "Let us go on to the neighboring towns, so that I may proclaim the message there also; for that is what I came out to do." 39And he went throughout Galilee, proclaiming the message in their synagogues and casting out demons.
DIAGNOSIS: The Lonely Place Step 1 - Initial Diagnosis: Sick Sickness afflicts people in synagogues (read: churches) and in homes (v. 29), men (vs. 21-28) and women (v. 30). It is most indiscriminate in claiming its victims-and all of us are susceptible. Step 2 - Advanced Diagnosis: Searching The presence of sickness is only worsened by those who do nothing to change the circumstances, seeking themselves to avoid susceptibility. Peter's quest for Jesus, really re-quest of Jesus, "Everyone is searching for you" (v. 37), is indicative of the malady in Peter's unwillingness to get himself contaminated with the problem of physical sickness, especially with all its demonic overtones. Consider it more of a request-if even that-that somebody else should take care of the problem. But as for us, leave us out of it. Step 3 - Final Diagnosis: Deserted The real tragedy is that in leaving ourselves out of the picture is that we are still infected with a deep spiritual sickness. In leaving ourselves out of the picture, the theological truth may be that God will do the same-leave us out. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that God would confirm out being outside the picture of hope.
PROGNOSIS: Proclaiming the Message Step 4 - Initial Prognosis: Coming Out But that is what makes, all the sweeter, the promise that Jesus "came out to do" (v. 38)-to heal, to proclaim to us who are trapped in our deserved desertion, our sickness of the heart and of the soul, as well as of the body. That means that Jesus enters deeply into our desertion, our "very dark" and "deserted places" (v. 35). Step 5 - Advanced Prognosis: Finding What Peter finds in Jesus, what we all find in Jesus, is the one who cures us, and not just spiritually, but all the way through, including our physical beings, sooner or later. Of all the ones to be searching for, Jesus is the one who provides the cure. And our faith in receiving his cure, his hand-holding us through it, lifts us out of our doldrums into a new life (v. 30). Step 6 - Final Prognosis: Serving Faith is expressed in serving-in getting up and getting on with the task of caring for others who have needs. Peter's mother-in-law got that spark. As soon as the fever had left her, she began to serve (v. 31). Once knowing Who the Lord of healing is, and how far his healing can take us, we too can go out of our way, in service, into the dark and lonely places.
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 1:56:13 PM
Regarding Demons - I took someone's line from last week (soory can't remember who's at the moment) and said that as Christians, I don't believe we can be possessed by demons - simply because we are already possessed by the Holy Spirit who dwells within. However, as Christians, I do believe we can be oppressed by demons, and that there is an ongoing spiritual battle around us. The demons that oppress us are those that prevent us from seeing Christ in one another - addictions, lust for power, control, etc.
Pastor in Canada
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 2:13:51 PM
In my reading this week I learned that the same Greek verb used for Jesus "lifting up" Simon's mother-in-law is the verb for Jesus' resurrection. In his death and resurrection Jesus completes true healing and brings complete wholeness. Yes, Jesus cares for our individual needs and shows compassion in his acts of healing. But, there is a bigger picture of healing he wants to give by moving from town to town proclaiming the kingdom of God. Jesus' healing helps us also for those times when we or our loved ones aren't "cured." Here's where the connection to Isaiah comes in. Jesus gives us strength and lifts us up on wings of eagles for the hard times we must go through--even when we're not healed the way we may pray to be healed. GB in MI
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 2:20:18 PM
Just a thought. I read in a commentary last week that Fred Craddock said, "Not believing in demons has not eradicated evil from our world." We need to speak out to proclaim the power of God. Jesus confronted evil to reclaim life for God. I have been a reader here for a long time and I appreciate the discussion. So I have finally decided to add something BWinOH
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 3:24:15 PM
Hi, It seems to me that one of the threads running through this first chapter is the authority of Jesus to call people to follow Him, authority to cast out demons that control their lives, and authority to heal diseases that diminish the quality of life. Could we proclaim a Jesus in 2003 that still comes with the only non-derivative authority in the world? BEN in WA
Date: 2/5/2003
Time: 5:56:23 PM
Well, I apologize for letting my contribution get away from me without editing. I obviously slipped up. Since no one could possibly read that mess, I am asking if anyone else is doing Scout Sunday?
The embarrassed Lori in NC
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 8:00:50 AM
The discussion has been excellent as usual. The comments about Peter's mother-in-law being healing of a fever and immediately getting up to wait on Jesus and the disciples caused me to think. As a RC deacon, my spirituality is focused on service. While this is but one facet of spirituality it is very important to the structure of the Church. We see service highlighted early in the Gospels. Jesus undergoes baptism, prayer and fasting to prepare for temptation and ministry and then serves the needs of people. He provides wine for a wedding, heals and cures the afflicted, casts out demons from the possessed, gives wisdom to the ignorant and so forth.
Peter's mother-in-law is ill with a fever. Jesus cures her and she gets up to immediately serve others. In this nameless woman we find a model for ourselves as servants of the servants of the Lord. The Gospel gives us little information about this holy woman. But we know that she is holy because she responded to the touch of our Lord.
She did not change in some big way. We don't read of her becoming a great leader in the early Church. She just does what she has always done - what is expected of a woman in her time and place. But I can't help thinking that she is no longer the same on the inside. Perhaps she is seasoning her cooking with gratitude and love instead of anger and resentment.
Early thoughts from a procrastinating desperate preacher, Thanks, Pace e Bene Deke in TX
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 8:09:20 AM
Just a little thought, did not YHWH free the Israelites from their bondage in order to serve the Lord?
tom in ga
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 9:56:15 AM
I know of a man who is 73 years old and has just been diagnosed with prostate cancer for the second time. (He's been healthy for most of the 12 years in between.) Though officially retired, he would like nothing more than to work, to continue to work with his neighbor's livestock and etc.
When I was struck down with a sudden kidney stone AND a perforated appendix, I learned how difficult it is to sit there and give your body time to heal and to recover, when you know you want to be out in ministry. Oh, for the joy of such complete, immediate healing that Jesus gave to Simon's mother-in law!
Michelle
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 10:13:43 AM
I have read all the contributions and, as always, this discussion is very helpful. I usually wind up going in my own direction with the scripture and sermon, but these comments help me to find that direction.
Here I go again, in a different direction. Two weeks ago, Jesus called the first four disciples to follow him and fish for people. Maybe in this pericope he is instructing those disciples in the art of fishing for people. He casts the tantilizing bait(healings and exorcisms)and schools of fish (needy people) flock to him and he proclaims the message. Then he moves to another fishing hole (from Capernaum to Galilee to the neighboring towns and villages). I could draw a detailed analogy of a fishing trip with a friend in his high powered/high tech bass boat; zipping all around the lake with all the tantilizing lures and tackle, but I won't.
Of course, this doesn't do justice to Jesus' time of solitude and prayer and it doesn't address the issue of demonic possession.
Oh well, just thinking. Picky Preacher in GA
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 10:14:45 AM
I have read all the contributions and, as always, this discussion is very helpful. I usually wind up going in my own direction with the scripture and sermon, but these comments help me to find that direction.
Here I go again, in a different direction. Two weeks ago, Jesus called the first four disciples to follow him and fish for people. Maybe in this pericope he is instructing those disciples in the art of fishing for people. He casts the tantilizing bait(healings and exorcisms)and schools of fish (needy people) flock to him and he proclaims the message. Then he moves to another fishing hole (from Capernaum to Galilee to the neighboring towns and villages). I could draw a detailed analogy of a fishing trip with a friend in his high powered/high tech bass boat; zipping all around the lake with all the tantilizing lures and tackle, but I won't.
Of course, this doesn't do justice to Jesus' time of solitude and prayer and it doesn't address the issue of demonic possession.
Oh well, just thinking. Picky Preacher in GA
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 11:54:51 AM
I know all kinds of people who proclaim that sitting at the fishing hole is their time of solitude and prayer!
Michelle
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 12:12:34 PM
Hi, everyone! Just checking in ... I didn't participate in the discussion last week because we had our annual parish meeting and I preached on different texts. And I am not preaching this week because my wife and I are helping with a youth retreat out of town....
And then I have just two more weeks in parish ministry for a while. The bishop decided that my pastoral relationship with this parish will end as of 2/28, which means my last Sunday at the altar and in the pulpit will be 2/23 ...
Where from here? Who knows. God, I suppose (I certainly hope and pray that God knows or at least has something in mind).
Blessings, Eric (still) in KS
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 4:28:37 PM
Lloyd Ogilvie, in his book "Life Without Limits", talks about the "immediacy" of Jesus. For example: he immediately went out... Immeditaly, the fever left... Immediately, he was healed... etc. The point being the "immediacy" of Jesus and divine power to human need. I found it fascinating that the Greek word for immediate 'euthus' occurs: 7 times in Matthew, 2 times in Luke, 3 times in John, and and amazing 41 times in Mark,(10 times in chapter 1 alone). Not sure how I will work in, but I like the theme. Tom in Mesa
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 6:27:39 PM
Hi all,
This passage reminds me of two things... one was a preaching class in seminary. It was a preaching class... with Dr. Dennis Ronald McDonald at Iliff School of Theology. The Miracles of Jesus class... I was to preach about the woman who touched the hem of his garment in the crowd. It was not my best... the professor took me aside after the class. When I told him that I was taking care of my son when I was trying to prepare for my sermon... how I was torn by my "work" and my "work". It is then he said, "Rick, you just preached the sermon you should have preached!"
Jesus was trying to get away... throughout his ministry, he always took the time to minister. Paul's words echo the challenge we have... to share the gospel with the world.
In this time of upheavel in the land of Iraq and our response... we are called to "bring the Prince of Peace to the World".
I'm also reminded of when I served a multi-church parish... sometimes it was nice when the people thought I was at "the other church"... it was then I could find a queit place to refresh my Spirit and renew my batteries.
A friend shared how when he was in seminary... he was taught "the mininstry of 'walking around'"... in other words, many of us feel like if we're not teaching a Bible Study we're NOT working.
I still remember a preacher meeting we had with our Bishop. He asked us all what was the "how had we seen God working in the lives of our church" or words to that affect. Many of my colleagues got caught up in "one upmanship" as one would say... "We just had our stewardship Sunday..." Another added, "We took in 10 new members"... "We built on to our church..." etc. etc. My turn came... I had just spent the morning with a member who had been suicidal the week before... I had spent the morning in his "garage" and together we put a fan on our 89 Celebrity. As I left he commented, "Thanks, I can't tell you what that meant to me!" THAT was what I was the most proud of...
All of us each day in big and small ways ... do ministry to make the world a better, safer, kinder place for all of God's people.
Still putting it together with you, thanks,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 6:52:41 PM
Speaking of Scout Sunday.
We will celebrate Scout Sunday although in a very subdued way.
We have a Scout Troop in our church. I'm not convinced that it is the best thing. Still, 64 boys attend the troop meetings each week. We have only 1 boy who is a in a family who attends our church. IF I could, I would ask them not to be a part of our church because of the National Boy Scout stance against homosexual persons. I am struggling with allowing their bulletin as our cover this Sunday. I am choosing not to fight that battle this year. 3 of the leadership of the troop are well respected members of our church. I'm not going to every fight I'm invited to.
What do you all think?
Date: 2/6/2003
Time: 11:34:52 PM
Not touched base with you all in DP for months, but great to get back in touch.
So much discussion about demons, so little about the present demonic world crisis.
I'm thinking about fame - there was one comment on fame. We desire fame, we love fame - fame is relishing the success you have had and letting people adore you for it. So many famous people find their personal affirmation in fame. So many young people want to be famous. But fame is fickle.
Jesus avoided fame by moving on. He could have stayed in Capernaum to lap up the adoration and do more miracles (like an India guru type) but his calling was to move on with proclaiming the Gospel.
For him (and by implication for us and all humans) we find our true affirmation by searching for God. Whilst everyone was searching for Jesus he was searching out his Father in heaven. He waited upon the Lord (Isaiah reading for this week) and renewed his strength. In touch again with God he righted the balance in his life, got in touch with the Father who had said at his baptism - this is my beloved Son.
Perhaps Bush should seek his affirmation not in trying to complete his earthly father's ambitions but in waiting upon the Lord (and not just going to church to look good!!)
Paul in UK
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 5:12:55 AM
"I would ask them not to be a part of our church because of the National Boy Scout stance against homosexual persons." Not me!
I believe the scouts are concerned with the examples people set for others, and are not willing to hold up an example they believe is wrong. I don't believe the scouts would say that homosexual persons could not be recipients of their service. (Who would ask the sexual preference of a person before "helping the person to cross the street.")
I admire the scouts for standing up for their beliefs, against the "politically correct" era in this country which is not necessarily good. It cannot be easy for them.
If you continue to hate the scouts, it will show through your attitude and bearing, and you will have nothing to show against those you accuse of hating others.
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 7:47:46 AM
lp in CO I have MS a neurological disease whose onslaught was accompanied by a nightmare of being a victim of a modern day holocast. Maybe the dream was a god send to prepare me to consider what would be demonic to me: the image of life in a wheel chair. So far my condition is quite mild. I am curious why you would assume that I have no right to address the issue of seizure since that could be a part of my future. TN Mack
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 8:01:35 AM
BB in IL Thanks for your response. I like your clarification. I realize that we all are involved in some word games and the intensity we allow words to take on in our emotions. Shame is a powerful emotion, and the church has a long history on being a guilt producing instead of a guilt reducing institution. One of the things that I am contemplating is should we be ashamed of owning the language which uses demons to describe all kinds of powers that seeks to diminish the love and grace of God in our lives. The shame or the feeling of unclean should not be attached to our personhood but to the evil spirit or demon that is attacking our sense of wholeness. I guess for me, saying that I am working on my demons reminds me of the monumental task that I face and that I cannot cast them away without trusting the power of Jesus name to cast them out. I would not indicate that the medical profession does not play a role in this. I would just like to see us give faith in God and in Christ the credit that is deserved. TN Mack
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 9:10:48 AM
Much has been said about Jesus having no desire for fame or fortune. He obviously had the ability and the opportunity to generate fame and/or fortune for himself, but rather than staying in one location to enjoy the praise and adoration of the people who were excited about him he chose to move on to new places and new faces. He rejected the accolades for himself in favor of proclaiming the message for the benefit of those who have not yet heard. His motivation is hard for us to understand.
The February 3, 2003 issue of Sports Illustrated (the one with the Super Bowl coverage) has an amazingly similar story about Barry Sanders. Sanders could have broken Walter Payton's career rushing record and earned millions of dollars in the process, but he chose to retire 3 years ago in his prime. The article talks about him being an enigma and even his parents are mystified as to why he chose to do this.
Those who are emphasizing Jesus' lack of interest in fame and fortune might want to read this article and incorporate it into the sermon as a modern day illustration.
Picky Preacher in GA
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 9:11:33 AM
TN Mack,
I appreciate your clarification. The only danger I sense is that it is too easy to jump to the conclusion that persons still suffering have too little faith and trust to have those demons cast out. The father in the gospel who cries out, "I believe, help my unbelief," received the gift for which he had asked, but not all of us do. Some of the most faithful among us die due to various diseases of mind and body, and are not cured (except in the resurrection).
I encourage us all to be careful not to blame the victim of the demons you describe. Sometimes those victims are the most faithful, who go on living despite the horrors that assail them.
(I'm not saying that you are doing the blaming, but that it is an easy conclusion to reach from your argument.)
You said, "I cannot cast them away without trusting the power of Jesus name to cast them out." True, but trusting the power of Jesus' name to cast out our demons does not mean that they will be cast out.
Michelle
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 10:23:19 AM
TN Mack, Perhaps we differ in our understanding of demonic. I am truly sorry for the illness that afflicts you. I'm not sure the demon is the illness but rather our inability to live out our lives in the peace of Christ with all our human limitations. For years the "fear" of having a seizure stopped me from being all that I could be. The seizure is not the demon. The fear...perhaps. That fear is a lack of trust. That fear is hanging on to the things of this world; of this life. The fear of being wheelchair bound or of developing seizures is what binds us. My prayers go to you in this illness. God will hear these prayers because of the sincerity with which they are offered...not for the words/thoughts of my prayer. Peace be with you! lp in CO
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 10:33:47 AM
Dick Donovan makes a great point when he says in his commentaries around this Sunday's gospel, "Jesus has not come primarily to heal, but to call people to repentance." This statement is enveloped in the idea that people were coming by droves to watch the healings or to be healed but there was little change in their lives. For this reason, Jesus leaves Caperneum and goes on. The people want "magic." Do I deny that there are physical healings that can only be explained because of a miracle. Absolutely not. Do I believe that it is important that we understand healings as spiritual healings? Absolutely! Another point that Donovan makes and is so very important is that Peter's mother-in-law was healed and went immediately into service of others. Yes, yes this is a cultural thing. I don't think that is the point here. Blessings! lp in CO
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 11:15:32 AM
MRE
Some people exercise their demons - keeping them active. Others seek to exorcise their demons. I am not sure how to respond to your comments. It seems that you want to clarify what I said as though you need to straighten me out in my thinking. Do you do that with your parish members? Some of this discussion is a matter of playing the devil's advocate to generate thought responses that might lead a person to communicate the message of the Gospel as he or she sees it. I think you miss the point of this "exercise" when you try to "exorcise" those who are politcally or theologically incorrect. If you think someone's idea's are screwy, why not just pray for the poor fellow. I doubt what you write will change what gets done on Sunday. TN Mack
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 2:39:39 PM
Mike in NC and Nancy in WI -I am sorry that how hard Jesus worked is what we - all of us preachers, especially - tend to take as our model. Jesus gets more press for violating the sabbath than for keeping it. But there is a persistance in his behavior, his going to a lonely place to pray, his urging the disciples to come away. What we do, create, fix, make happen - these are less important than what we receive from God. It's God's own joy into which we are invited - not a "day off" but a day of knowing it is not our power and strength that run the world. kbc in sc
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 2:39:54 PM
Nancy-Wi, thanks for the idea about the "main thing".
And Eric, we miss you. Let us know what's up.
And whoever posted anonymously about Scout Sunday, it's not the scouts themselves who are anti-gay. I agree that this is not a fruitful fight to pick up at this point (on scout Sunday). Just welcome them into your worship and celebrate the good things they do.
DGinNYC
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 3:37:42 PM
Be Careful of Demons[ Benny Hinn went to the Caribbean and said that he has never seen so many demons in his Life- as though there are no Demons in the USA. Hey this has to do with Jesus connecting with his Father- the Energy to Heal, Teach, and Proclaim.A good message for the overly busy priest who believe that it is in being busy that we are ushuring the kingdom of God, One has to turn on the spiritual circuitry to be effective. It means going apart and communing with the source, saintwin-Florida
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 4:11:47 PM
culture wise, the mother in law would have been in a different part of the house, away from unknown male quests. Jesus is told about the mother in law and goes to her. i believe he is telling us to cross those culture bounds into new territory. the word used to say she "served" can also be interpreted as "ministered". in the commentary i read it said that it can be served or ministered as onlg as it is the same word used to say how the angels in the desert ministered or served Jesus there. I believe Jesus was calling the mother in law as a disciple. truely breaking tradition. her house becomes one which Jesus uses often. seems to me she was one of the unnamed disciples called to minister right from the beginning days of Jesus'ministry. sarah
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 8:48:00 PM
To IL Pastor re moving I would only say that moving will not recreate the "successful" congregation that once was -- probably in the golden era of the 1950's when church membership was a corporate merit badge. I dare say the neighborhood is probably socio-economically alien to the congregation, but that does not mean there is no service/outreach or evangelism to be done. Perhaps the "moving" on that Jesus did was about moving into today versus attempting to live in the past. DrPat
Date: 2/7/2003
Time: 9:07:51 PM
Just to add a bit to the the issue of Jesus' not wanting fame--We humans miss the point so easily, and when Jesus comes to us to heal us, we want to make him ours. It's the challenge of holding on to the tension of that immanence/transcendence paradox: the one who knows you more intimately than you know yourself also flung the stars into their courses (I'll be using the Psalm alongside Mark). We want to own the source of the stuff that makes us whole. It's very hard to feel dependent on an outside source we cannot control. I'm not going to say this in my sermon, but that's why I have trouble with what I call "Jesus is My Boyfriend" music. Not all contemporary Xn stuff is like that by any means, but some of it is.
So Jesus went out to a deserted place to pray to remind himself and his people that all his healing and teaching was about God, was to point to God. And everything we do in Christ's name should point to God as well--transparency.
LM in waysouthTX
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 3:54:40 AM
Note that v. 32 says "That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons." V. 34 says: "And he cured many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons." Although they brought to him ALL who were sick or possessed with demons, Jesus cured MANY who were sick and cast out MANY demons. Apparently not everyone who was brought to Jesus with afflictions were healed and made whole. Why not? Maybe because Jesus was doing a spiritual thing and not everyone could receive that spiritual gift. Maybe they chose to cling to their sickness and/or demon possession rather than giving those things up for the new way of life that Jesus offered. Maybe the price was too high for them in terms of what they would have to give up to be healed and set free. Those who could receive Jesus' gift, that is those who were willing to give up their old way of life for a new way of life became citizens in the kingdom of God. Simon's M-I-L is a paradigm of authentic acceptance of and response to the kingdom that Jesus proclaimed. Picky Preacher in GA
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 6:54:51 AM
I have to preach two homilies this weekend. Tonight's will be very short as we have a special event following immediately after. jlgroganjr on the discussion site made me think of the following story of eating in Heaven and Hell. It seemed to dovetail into my thinking of the healing of Simon's mother in law. I have to go as I need to work up something else for Sunday's Mass. Happy preaching, alleluia - Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
A man had a vision of Heaven and Hell.
He saw a beautifully decorated banquet table sagging with loads of wonderful food. Trooping through the door was a group of the most wretched people he'd ever seen. They were wan and emaciated. If you have ever seen someone in the terminal stages of starvation these people were worse.
How can this be with all this wonderful food and drink on the table.
The starving people sat down and he noticed that they had 3-foot forks attached to their hands.
With loud cursing and moaning they tried in vain to feed themselves - the best they could do was to put food in their ears.
How perfect," he thought, "the devil has created a hell of Hells. Food in abundance and yet impossible to eat."
The vision fogged and cleared. There was the banquet hall, but the people coming in were healthy and happy. They looked well fed. Attached to their hands were 3-foot forks. "Why are they so happy and well fed when they can't eat?" the man wondered.
They sat at table and with joyful praise and not a few alleluias gave thanks to God for life and love. Soon they were conversing quietly with their tablemates. The forks moved to various platters and trenchers as they pile food in the plates. Then they began to feed each other with the long forks.
Simon's mother in law was very sick with a fever. Jesus came to her and she was healed. We don't know much about this woman, but mother in laws have a very bad reputation, some may well deserve it. If she'd been well how might she react to her son in law bring home a bunch of men for dinner? Not well is my guess.
When Jesus touched her as she burned in fever she caught a new fever. She was healed of sickness. Not just the fever but sickness of soul that comes from sin. Immediately she arose to serve a banquet of thanksgiving.
We are present in the man's second vision. Today, now, we have a foretaste of the heavenly banquet. Our fellowship of service will stay with us as we leave the church to attend the Mardi Gras party next door. Again we will serve one another and the guests.
Heaven Hell and Earth are not so different from one another. The difference is that in Heaven all are servants and all are served.
Enjoy the evening - make the Eucharistic banquet a movable feast. Where you go, Christ is with you. Amen.
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 8:40:14 AM
Hi gang...
Tom in Mesa commented about Mark's use of "immediate" language. Interestingly, the anonymous author of this quarter's "Forward Day by Day" (an Episcopalian devotional) comments on this in his/her thoughts for Feb. 23, which I looked at because that will be my last Sunday at my parish and I'm working on my last sermon... He/she writes about the gospel for 2/23:
"We were taught in Seminary distinguishing characteristics about Mark's gospel. One such characteristic is his use of the word 'immediately.' Mark uses it frequently and most often for emphasis and authority. Jesus' authority is at stake during this encounter with the Scribes and the crowd at Capernaum. Jesus knows that the real gift he offers is forgiveness of sins and salvation but for his audience that pales in comparison to healing a paralytic. So to show his authority to the Scribes he heals the man."
Don't know if that helps any for this week, but there it is...
Blessings, Eric (still) in KS
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 8:56:22 AM
The word that is translated "served" in regard to Simons's mother-in-law is of course a derivitive of the Greek word diakonia - which is most often translated ministered and sometimes in the noun form Deacon. Jesus healed her and she ministered to others. She was sick and was healed and then ministered to others brought to Jesus to be healed. As raw as it makes us feel about her being on her sick bed one moment and up "serving" or "deaconing" or "ministering" the next, it says she pitched in. She was giving the cup of cold water and some more. It is like so many of us who have found the healing of Christ, we cannot sit on the side lines and watch, we have to get in there and do what we can do.
Chas in Va
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 9:44:11 AM
I don't think Benny Hinn knows much about demons. I don't think he even recognizes his own. Picky Preacher in Ga
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 9:52:03 AM
Why is the fact that the mother-in-law served getting negative comments? Isn't service one aspect of a life with Christ that can bring joy, when it is an obedient, loving response? No, the accolades for one who serves well are few, because such a person is often overlooked, and sometimes we mistakenly think that if we haven't noticed something or someone, then it or (s)he is of little importance. lkinhc
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 9:56:08 AM
Eric--I hope that you'll keep us with us even in your "in between" time. Your thoughts are so helpful and ,very selfishly, we would miss you! Keep us posted and know that you are in my prayers.
On another note to all--do you know what I think is demonic?? When people disagree with someone else's theology or faith stance, they dismiss it by labeling it "politically correct." For instance, there are many who do not believe that the boy scout stance on homosexuality is right. They feel that way because their faith and their understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Some may come to a different understanding of the gospel and be equally strong in their beliefs. But let's address the differences in understandings and not dismiss others by using labels. (And yes, those labels can run both ways) Each of us is created by God, well loved and under God's grace. We're all trying our best to live out our respponse to that love and grace and struggling to understand all that God wants from us. Let's deal with each other as such. The other LP in CO
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 9:56:11 AM
Eric--I hope that you'll keep us with us even in your "in between" time. Your thoughts are so helpful and ,very selfishly, we would miss you! Keep us posted and know that you are in my prayers.
On another note to all--do you know what I think is demonic?? When people disagree with someone else's theology or faith stance, they dismiss it by labeling it "politically correct." For instance, there are many who do not believe that the boy scout stance on homosexuality is right. They feel that way because their faith and their understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Some may come to a different understanding of the gospel and be equally strong in their beliefs. But let's address the differences in understandings and not dismiss others by using labels. (And yes, those labels can run both ways) Each of us is created by God, well loved and under God's grace. We're all trying our best to live out our respponse to that love and grace and struggling to understand all that God wants from us. Let's deal with each other as such. The other LP in CO
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 10:02:53 AM
On the topic of writing off other people's beliefs (and, I'm afraid, not on the topic of the scriptural passage, sorry): Several years ago I participated in a very long-running discussion group about abortion. We came to the discussion with three guidelines, the second of which was "Question everyone's logic, but nobody's motives." That may be what you're talking about, other LP?
The first quideline was "Come to inform but not to convert."
I can't for the life of me remember the third, and I would be very grateful if someone has heard these guidelines used together and can tell me where they come from and what number three is!
kbc in sc
PS - The abortion dialogue produced some remarkable stories of people coming together in greater understanding. I'd love to try someting like that with homosexuallity as the topic.
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 10:04:05 AM
kbc in sc again - if you can provide me with information, my e-mail address is kculp@awod.com
Thanks
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 10:24:25 AM
It seems to me that the reading from Isaiah holds the backdrop for all the lessons this Sunday.
The backdrop simply states clearly that God the Creator is trustworthy and there is nothing that is more powerful nor present to his people.
The exiles can trust that he will bind up their wounds and bring them home.
The people can trust that through Jesus' ministry they will be healed, made whole.
Paul can trust that eventhough his hearers don't always accept his proclamation, God remains in charge.
What is our backdrop, what stands behind us, are they like the idols or gods of Babylonia, or the expectation in the crowd that God will simply fix us and do a magic stunt!
Indeed, Jesus shows us his backdrop as he goes off to a lonely place to pray, it is here where he is given strength, it is here where he comes into contact with the only real thing in his life, his Father.
If we place world leaders, theatrical stunts of healing (like the PTL club, etc), or if we simply think (which is far more likely) that there is nothing behind us then we will find ourselves alone in our suffering, unable to find healing, for faith would have faded, God would not be powerful enough to act (for it is only those who wait upon the Lord who be saved).
The homiletic aha moment it seems to me is simply that we are called to remember, to move past our cultural amnesia, to behold the loving presence of a God who never let the exiles goes, who is with us all in trouble, and who directs the outcome of our lives. To accept that is to renew one's faith.
coming late on Saturday from
tom in ga
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 10:48:49 AM
Just a thought about trust - When I was in traning to be a Peace Corps Volunteer in the late 60s, we did a lot of trust exercises - you've done 'em too. Stand in a circle, and when the person in the circle leans back, you catch him/her. It was fun, that feeling of falling and then being saved from crashing on the floor! Remember how some people just couldn't lean back? They missed something. kbc in sc
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 12:18:23 PM
Thanks to Tom in Ontario for the info that people possessed by an unclean spirit were ritually unclean and so not able to attend the Temple. Presumably leading to a feeling of isolation from God's grace and love? Some years ago a member of the previous church I attended - I'll call him Ken- was struck with motor neuron disease, a particularly nasty and cruel illness for a very active man in his early 50s as it made totally dependent and robbed him of much dignity. Ken became very abusive and aggressive against the church in general and God in particular, refusing to have any more to do with it and saying that he could no longer believe in the love of God. To cut a very long story short (it's 8.20pm in England and I'm half way through a sermon), after much prayer and eventually laying on of hands and annointing, Ken was transformed. He once again became the gentle man we had all known and resumed church-going where he had a profound calming and encouraging effect on many people, especially young adults. He died about 3 months later so was certainly not healed in the sense of being cured. But maybe this was a case of his demons of fear and helplessness being cast out.
Andy in Brum, England
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 3:01:21 PM
DGinNYC
I was the annonymous Scout basher. I was also a scout as a youth. I learned how to respect other regardless of who they were. I will not fight that battle this year. The local Scout group is very accomodating but have begun to be a little more controlling of the days they meet without regard to the church's schedule. If we plan a church event they say, "We've always had that day on the church calendar." That's the only real issue the local group brings. Love will continue to be shared.
Thank you
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 3:43:31 PM
When people are sick, dying or desperately in need, they go to the source of where they can receive help. It may not be considerate, it may not be convenient, but Jesus helped them anyway. Jesus was able to discern far better than I am, or many of us can, when we are to minister to others. Whether we are tired, or just in need of space, there are times when we need to go in the strength of God, and minister to the people, and pray while we are doing it, as well as after we conclude! Susan in Wa.
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 5:00:15 PM
Off topic for the discussion of the text... but following up on the Boy Scout issue... I've learned more than I ever cared to know about the BSA this year. Basically, there was in-fighting between the troop committee and the scoutmaster. Both ended up on my front doorstep several times, complaining about the other.
Why me?
Because as the person that signed the charter, according to the BSA Council, *I* am the one that can replace the scoutmaster or the troop committee.
As I learned about this new-found power <g>, I learned several other things:
1) The troop is not required to submit financial statements to the Council or to the National organization.
2) The church, as sponsor, OWNS the troop - the checkbook, the supplies, etc.
3) There should be an organizational representative who attends the troop committee meetings.
4) It is the sponsoring organization that establishes dates, etc.
The person that I consulted with from Council even suggested that the church could *require* service projects from the troop that would benefit the sponsoring organization!
One of the sad things that we did learn was that because there was no required audit or submission of financial statements, there was embezzlement of the troop funds over the last few years.
Just a heads up!!
Casey in NJ
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 7:18:33 PM
Springsteen wrote a song, "If I Should Fall Behind" One lyric goes, "...let's make our steps clear so that the other may see. I'll wait for you. Should I fall behind wait for me." This walk we take with our congregations is like a marriage. Jesus gets tired of the people's greed in saving themselves and sometimes I feel that people are in the church for their own agenda not God's. I get tired of that but I still need to walk with them and wait if they whould fall behind
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 7:20:16 PM
I'm new at this and learning. I realize Springsteen isn't gospel but I think the message fits with Christians. JPL LMIowa
Date: 2/8/2003
Time: 9:17:56 PM
TN Mack
I was not trying to "straighten you out." I apologize if that's what my words implied. I merely wanted to understand if you intended to be hurtful. I was hurt, and I assumed many with neurological difficulties might be hurt as well. I believed you did not intend to be hurtful, and I still hope that is the case. Again, my apologies for not being more clear in my intentions.
MRE
Date: 2/9/2003
Time: 5:40:22 AM
Eric, this passage has great meaning for you. You have healed others and now is a time of restoration and prayer, and then the call will come to go to another place and proclaim and heal again. Meanwhile stay sharp and keep posting! May God grant you an easy passage to your new place. Nancy-Wi
Date: 2/10/2003
Time: 11:45:15 AM
kbc in sc
Could the third guideline be "Agree to disagree" ?
jfl in montreal