Faith in action vs. Good works? No fruit off with your head? Disciples are fruity opps fruit laden? Can we always see the fruit of our ministry? just a "bunch" of fruity thoughts about bearing the fruit! nancy-Wi
We bear fruit, not by trying to bear fruit, but by abiding in the vine, taking our nourishment from it, letting the "sap" flow through us to the outside. Perhaps this is about focus. Do we focus on what we do, or do we focus on the one who can do wondrous things through us? And how do we abide in the vine (Jesus)? Is it by being connected to the congregation? I don't believe all who congregate are fruit bearers, but it is in the Congregation that we commune, and we hear the Word there (But not only there). I think the overall emphasis here is our connection to Jesus. If we are connected, the fruit comes naturally and wonderfully. -MattMN
Like vines that grow from a single strong root, we are grafted into Christ at baptism and nourished on his life with the eucharist. Christ feeds our hunger and satisfies our thirst with his word and sacraments and encourages us so that we might become fruitful in service to others. Today Christ calls the church to remember the source of our faith, hope, and love.
On the night of his arrest, Jesus taught his disciples about the relationship they would have with him. Those who abide in his word and love would bear fruit, for apart from him, they could do nothing.
As the pastoral candidate entered the room, he smiled and speedily scanned each call committee member from crown to heel. They, in turn, scanned right back. As he took his seat, pleasantries were exchanged, including some superficial chatter about the upcoming Super Bowl. Pastor Devereaux crossed his legs just as Mrs. Mendoza fired off the first question, "Pastor, how would you describe hell?"
The answer to that question is embedded in today's gospel reading. Many people have burning fire as their image of hell, but that is at best an incomplete picture. Jesus says he is the vine and we are the branches. We know that a branch cannot survive on its own after it has been cut off; its only fate is death. (According to the text the vinegrower does not transplant it, or re-root it in water; whether there are any such options, we must leave to God's gracious wisdom.) If we stay true to the words of Jesus, the dead do not, cannot, will not do anything, which is why Jesus says, "apart from me you can do nothing." The spiritually dead do nothing that counts for anything. And so, after the branches die, they are not good for anything except to be disposed of, thrown into the fire. Hell is not the fire, hell is being cut off from God.
"Abide in me," says Jesus. Now that you are here, stay. It is an imperative that implies we do have a choice. It is a word to those who call themselves followers of God. Hell is not where we are sent, it is where we choose to go, if we do not abide in Christ, but rather cut ourselves off from the true vine.
Take a planted tree and show the congregation how it is one. It gains its strength from the soil, from the water that nourishes it, the sun above. And deep beneath the soil are the roots. Although they are invisible they feed even the branches. But what would happen if you were to cut off one of the branches? Eventually it would die. So too will we die when we cut ourselves off from God. If we are not rooted in the Lord its only a matter of time before we perish, just as the branch away from the roots dies. (just a quick thought that could be developed)
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Don't you think that pruning process is rather painful for the church? Folks who are the fruit bearing branches nonetheless are grieved when others get "removed" because they "bear no fruit".
Blessings, Eric in KS (for another couple of weeks)
Hey, Eric,
Where will you be going?
Michelle
MattMN,
I like your imagery. Thank you.
Michelle
For months I have been reading and enjoying all the thoughts. I thank you all for giving me much insite into the scriptures. When I moved into this home 6 years ago, there was a small tree in the back yard. I had no idea what it was. I am not much of a gardener and am quite lazy at taking care of gardens, pruning trees, etc. Last spring I finally pruned the small shoots at the bottom of the tree and trimmed the bad branches. Low and behold, it blossomed and bore fruit; it turned out to be a crab-apple tree. Beautiful blossoms and finally pretty bright red apples. Was it a coincidence that it bore fruit after it had been pruned? He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. Amazing!! Constantly being pruned by God.
Yooper-MI
For months I have been reading and enjoying all the thoughts. I thank you all for giving me much insite into the scriptures. When I moved into this home 6 years ago, there was a small tree in the back yard. I had no idea what it was. I am not much of a gardener and am quite lazy at taking care of gardens, pruning trees, etc. Last spring I finally pruned the small shoots at the bottom of the tree and trimmed the bad branches. Low and behold, it blossomed and bore fruit; it turned out to be a crab-apple tree. Beautiful blossoms and finally pretty bright red apples. Was it a coincidence that it bore fruit after it had been pruned? He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. Amazing!! Constantly being pruned by God.
Yooper-MI
I once had a member who said: "I go to church, what more does God want?" After biting my tongue, I said: "A whole lot more.
I think most people feel that going to church, reading their Bible and praying are fruit, for which God should be proud of them. I beleive that going to church, Bible reading and praying are sap, not fruit. These keep us connected to the vine so that we are able to produce real fruit.
JRW in OH
Whoever wrote about the Pastoral search committee and the definition of hell being separation from God, I like it! And now that we are abiding, Stay. Through the word, the sacraments, and I would add to that, not being so concerned about what we do FOR God, but WHO we are WITH God. It isn't all about works, it is about nurturing a loving, growing in love relationship with God.
Susan in Wa.
A couple of initial thoughts:
in response to someone's "grafting" image - I learned at my first appointment that in order for a pecan tree to produce pecans, you have to graft a branch from an already-producing pecan tree to it. How this happens in nature, I can't be sure, but in that area, there were more pecans than anyone could deal with. The pecan tree by itself is quite pretty. And I'd just as soon not have so many slippery, rolling, bee-attracting pecans underfoot. I wonder how many of our congregants feel the same way about their fruit - that their church life is much simpler without having to wonder what to do with all the fruit.
Next: This sermon might be a good place for me to insert an analogy I thought of last week. It's about folks who "pay" for their fruit production. That is, "outreach" is giving money to a local charity. While money is necessary, to be sure, it keeps true ministry at arm's length. So, I wondered how it would come acros if I suggested I just give them all money and not hold worship or visitation? No Bible study, no committees, no leadership ... But, I'd be giving out of Christian love.
Truth is: we have many substitutes for ministry. But, God sent Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch and he went. He didn't send him money, he (through no obvious choice of his own, admittedly) allowed the "fruit" that God produced (the born-again eunuch) to do his own thing! He didn't HAVE to worry about what to do with the produce.
Eric -glad to hear you may have a new appointment (to borrow a UM term).
Sally in GA
Dear Friends,
Is this a scripture that tells us we can fall from faith or not? This picture is graphic in that branches are cut off and thrown into the fire. That is much the same language Jesus used when refering to the final destination of hell.
Also just what is the produce? New Christians? Fruit of the Spirit? Fellowship with Jesus which is difficult to difine?
I am struggling with all these questions. The commentaries and academic traditions are conflicting.
Mike in NC
Here's a good read. Two pastors debate "pruning vines."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/8l3/8l3038.html
Sally in GA
Mike - thank you for bringing up an important aspect of this text. It's been awhile since I've thought of it as being along the lines of the matthean Jesus saying, "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it's better for you to go to heaven blinded than to burn with both eyes." (rough paraphrase)
Sally in GA
In order to understand the meaning of this passage we need to look at the translation of "prune" and "cleanse." They both come from the Greek work "carthesis" which does not imply people leaving rather it has to do with voiding that which is unhealthy from within us. Also known as emotional vomiting, carthesis facilitates the healing process. I prefer to view this from an individual perspective rather than from a congregational one, however, there are situations when the disease is found in unhealthy relationships and systems.
A W-G rocky coast Me.
I was out in the yard this evening picking up dozens of little branches that had blown out of the trees from several overnight storms. These branches were all budless and leafless. They were dry and brittle. They had been connected to the tree before the storms but they were already dead. The stiff winds and rain snapped them off but they had no life in them even before the storm.
I thought of how we can be like those branches, externally looking connected but actually dead because something has come between us and the vine. Nothing of the Vine's life flows through us. James wrote: "Faith without works is thoroughly lifeless." I wonder if we are like those dead branches when all we do is go through the motions without truly loving the needy whom Christ calls us to love.
TiminOH
Michelle (and other enquiring minds) ...
On June 1, I start as Rector of St. Paul's Episcopal Church, Medina, Ohio. I'll be in residence starting May 27. (Then on August 1 I will be going to Saudi Arabia for five weeks, returning to Medina on Sept. 11.)
There will be a "Celebration of New Ministry" (installation service) sometime in late September or early October. I hope many of you DPS buddies can attend! I'll publish the date here.
Now -- about this pruning of dead branches.... do you suppose that this can be applied to whole congregations? My former parish seems to be doing just about everything it can to self-destruct (leadership fights, chasing people away, overspending its budget, cancelling advertising, you name it....) and my spiritual director yesterday (after reminding me that I had to "let go" of the place) suggested that perhaps this is what God intends, that it is a fruitless branch that needs to be pruned away so something more productive can take its place.
Blessings, Eric in KS (soon to be in OH)
This passage causes me great grief and questioning. The image of a God who will remove or discard people is very troubling and does not fit with a God of love, a God who gathers all in, the shepherd who seeks for the lost sheep. God does not discard people. There are so many lost people who do not abide in Christ - through no fault of their own and possibly even through the actions of many who would consider themselves good fruit bearing branches. LGB
LGB: It does shake us when we read about unfruitful vines being cast into the fire, just as when we read about goats beging cast into darkness.
Nonetheless, the "vine" has the choice of whether to abide or not abide in Christ. Abiding in Christ produces the healthy minerals, water and sunlight that will produce fruit of its own accord. It will have no choice, for it is a natural consequence. In a sense, it is the vine's choice -- not God's decision -- whether it will be thrown into the fire.
Once you have heard the Good News, once you know The Way, who is unable to abide "through no fault of their own"?
Just wondering ...
PastorBuzz in Tennessee
Dear Friends,
Have we reached a continental divide on the subject of the possibility of loosing our salvation? In my few short years (about 15) in the ministry it has been my observation that emotion often influences logic on such subjects. There are those that cannot imagine God would do away with someone. Yet there stands examples in the OT and NT people of the faith that seem to have lost it. But we cannot imagine it, therefore we do not explore it.
But I have to push the limits on this if I am going to address the issue Sunday. Fact is we are Wesleyans and the possibility exists for us to so grieve the Holy Spirit as to loose our salvation.
Is our problem (or one of many problems) as Christians that we have chosen to see God in the modern era as a giant marshmallow or warm fuzzy? Could we have bought into the idea that God is our butler or a Dr. Feel Good?
I think there is room to make the point that we must produce something (other Christians, good works, fruit of the Spirit, etc.) OR ELSE. I am to the point that pleading, enticing, cajoling and other forms of spiritual prodding are not working.
Can we deliver such an unappealing, scary message with grace?
Mike in NC
PS. I wish God would just send me the manuscript He wants me to read each Friday. It would make matters much simpler.
Pastor Buzz, In regards to people who do not abide in Christ because of the actions of others, I am thinking of people like those who were children in the church-run Native Residential Schools in Canada. These were people who were exposed to the Good News by people who represented this "God of love" and then proceeded to abuse them physcially, emotionally and sexually. The message could easily be confused with the messenger and be rejected. Were they really given a choice? I just believe there are a lot of people out there - the outcasts Jesus chose to associate with and I am not sure where they fit into this passage. I am a minister and I abide in Christ and I believe produce fruit, but I don't believe I am more deserving of undeserved grace or of not being lopped off the vine than these other folks. I am really struggling with this passage. (In case you hadn't noticed!:)) It could be because I encountered a lot of street people in a recent visit to a city. Because of my back ground, I have been able to embrace the message, not everyone has had a background that nurtured a faith. I realize there are exceptions but I can't beleive God will dicard people who have been therough hell on earth. I am not arguing, I am struggling, so please keep the comments coming. I appreciate them. Blessings LGB
I am coming from the point of view that many if not most churches are concerned about growing. How can they grow if they are being pruned? We should not seek wild unfocused growth, but by being pruned and produceing good fruit, we can begin to grow in a more planed and speicific way. Bd in IL
JRW in Ohio, Thanks for that thought! Perhaps a sermon title could be "Saps for Jesus" lp in CO
Eric, I am most certain that I can't be in Ohio for your installation as rector, but know that many of us will be with you in spirit. Be careful in Saudi Arabia and know that you are in the prayers of many of us--as if you can't tell! lp in CO
I was made to think of this: a well known quote but one which rather sugests that the cutting of a branch is the cutting off of oneself. . .
...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee...
SJM UK
I like the distinction between abiding with Christ and bearing fruit, and the point that many of us think of doing "religious stuff" as bearing fruit. We mistake the means for the end, as usual.
So when we talk about fruit, it's important to remember that the vine can't do a whole lot with its own fruit, except maybe use it for compost. The fruit is meant to feed somebody else. And if you look at it that way, the line drawn around what branches get cut and what don't becomes gentler, I think. Or at least it becomes harder for US to judge where the line falls--who gets fed from your life? Is the life of the church for its own enjoyment, or do we invite others to taste and see? God will sort out the branches; our job is to hang on the best we can.
LM in South TX
Some poetry or song for your thoughts -
I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in me you’ll bear much fruit Apart from me you can do nothing. Abide in me, love will take root.
Don’t grow away you’ll only wither You’ll become dry, easily burned. Abide in me and in my wisdom, Dwell in my truth, grace that’s unearned.
Ask for what you will, it will given Seek and you’ll find I have not died. Bearing this fruit be my disciples The living God is glorified.
by Petereo. Blessings for fruitful worship to you all.
I'm still a bit all over the board on this one.
In one way, bearing fruit may start out very small. Some trees do not bear fruit until they are many years old. For some Christians newly-born or newly-revived, the first fruits may be understood to be the growth of faith in themselves, the joy they receive from the realization of what Christ has done for them, the awesome gift of free salvation.
Yet, we cannot stay there. It can't remain just "me and Jesus"! How can we not share the good news, in speech and deed?
Also, some of those good works we never see, and some of my friends would not admit. After all, there were years in which there was a backlash in which people avoided doing visible good works, for fear that others would think they were trying to earn their salvation by their works.
I do shy away from "Works--OR ELSE!" That would be a little scary for some of the severely disabled.
I would rather move toward "Works--Why not?" Then I can look at some of the excuses we use, and hopefully let those non-producing excuses be pruned away, to encourage the production of fruit by what is left...
More to do...
Michelle
Whoops!!! What happened to the date/time stamp on our comments. Makes it hard to leave and come back to where you left off.
Several have questioned whether this text can be used to refer to "pruning away" those who are in our congregations that are not bearing fruit. I believe the answer is "yes." The Johannine (sp?) community was under a lot of dissension at the writing of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John. Assuming that the Book of John and the Author of the letters are one and the same it stands to reason that quoting these words of Jesus might stand to admonish some and excuse the actions of the community in seperating themselves from the dead branches.
That said, I am still going to go with a more personalized approach. I've only been here 11 months and I don't want to be too hasty in my pruning efforts (though some of the branches are becoming more evident in their fruitlessness.) Rev. Israel
Thanks for all the good discussion this week. Sally you made me laugh at the thought of paying people in the context that money is not all we are called to give. I have a couple of confirmands that would take you up on your offer. When you prune a tree, or a program or your personal life, you make decisions. When I was called into serving as a minister, I had to prune my life. I had to give up some of what I thought were quite precious. I admit parts of it were painful, some parts were not, but in all the pruning I had to keep God's will for me in mind. Now I prune my life in a different way, what is God's will for me in the context of the church I serve in his name. I would liken the vine to Christ and the sap to the Holy Spirit that moves and flows within us. Nancy-Wi
Four thoughts:
1. Unfruitful branches are removed and fruitful branches are pruned to bear more fruit. Obviously it is desirable to be fruitful, but then pruning is inevitable. Pruning is painful, but it is necessary and it improves the branch that is being pruned. I guess this is like discipline for a child. An adult that has not been disciplined as a child must learn self discipline and my experience is this is not easy and is probably more painful than earlier pruning would have been.
2. "Abide in me" emphasizes the believers' dependence on the Lord. The branch is nothing without the vine and the believer is nothing without the Lord.
3. Concerning "Abide in me," v. 7 could easily be misunderstood. Misunderstanding "Ask for whatever you wish and it will be done for you." can turn the Christian faith into a formula for prosperity: the equivalent of "Get right with God and you've got the world by the tail and can have anything you want." However, those who abide in Christ have the same mindset as Christ. Those who abide in Christ come to will the same things that Christ wills and Christ wills the same as God wills. Therefore, one who abides in Christ would never think of asking for fame and riches. Those who abide in Christ would ask for Godly things, not worldly things. Believers who are confused about this either lead others astray or they become disillusioned themselves and fall away. This is not a formula for worldly prosperity.
4. The end result of all this is found in v. 8: God is glorified.
Creature Wayne
Some raw material garnered from illustrations at www.bible.org. and another source...can't remember where which may be helpful in the fruit department and in the concern about cutting off discussion related to the meaning of the word often translated cut off or removes re: fruitless branches. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Living and a Dead Faith The Lord receives His highest praise From humble minds and hearts sincere; While all the loud professor says Offends the righteous Judge’s ear.
To walk as children of the day, To mark the precept’s holy light, To wage the warfare, watch, and pray, Shew who are pleasing in His sight.
Not words alone it cost the Lord, To purchase pardon for His own; Nor will a soul by grace restored Return the Saviour words alone.
With golden bells, the priestly vest, And rich pomegranates border’d round, The need of holiness express’d, And call’d for fruit as well as sound.
Easy indeed it were to reach A mansion in the courts above, If swelling words and fluent speech Might serve instead of faith and love.
But none shall gain the blissful place, Or God’s unclouded glory see, Who talks of free and sovereign grace, Unless that grace has made him free!
Olney Hymns, William Cowper, from Cowper’s Poems, Sheldon & Company, New York
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Bearing Fruit Every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation.
Having said that, some caveats are in order.
1. This does not mean that a believer will always be fruitful. Certainly we can admit that if there can be hours and days when a believer can be unfruitful, then why may there not also be months and even years when he can be in that same condition? Paul exhorted believers to engage in good works so they would not be unfruitful (Titus 3:14). Peter also exhorted believers to add the qualities of Christian character to their faith lest they be unfruitful (2 Peter 1:8). Obviously, both of those passages indicate that a true believer might be unfruitful. And the simple fact that both Paul and Peter exhort believers to be fruitful shows that believers are not always fruitful.
2. This does not mean that a certain person’s fruit will necessarily be outwardly evident. Even if I know the person and have some regular contact with him, I still may not see his fruit. Indeed, I might even have legitimate grounds for wondering if he is a believer because I have not seen fruit. His fruit may be very private or erratic, but the fact that I do not see it does not mean it is not there.
3. My understanding of what fruit is and therefore what I expect others to bear may be faulty and/or incomplete. It is all too easy to have a mental list of spiritual fruits and to conclude if someone does not produce what is on my list that he or she is not a believer. But the reality is that most lists that we humans devise are too short, too selective, too prejudiced, and often extrabiblical. God likely has a much more accurate and longer list than most of us do. Nevertheless, every Christian will bear fruit; otherwise he or she is not a true believer. In speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ, Paul says unequivocally that every believer will have praise come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5).
So Great Salvation, Charles Ryrie, Victor Books, 1989, pp. 45-46
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What is Fruit? What is fruit? Actually the question ought to be phrased in the plural: What are fruits which a Christian can bear? The N. T. gives several answers to the question.
1. A developing Christian character is fruit. If the goal of the Christian life may be stated as Christlikeness, then surely every trait developed in us that reflects His character must be fruit that is very pleasing to Him. Paul describes the fruit of the Spirit in nine terms in Galatians 5:22-23, and Peter urges the development of seven accompaniments to faith in order that we might be fruitful (2 Peter 1:5-8). Two of these terms are common to both lists: love and self-control. The others are joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, virtue, knowledge, endurance, piety, and brotherly love. To show these character traits is to bear fruit in one’s life.
2. Right character will result in right conduct, and as we live a life of good works we produce fruit (Colossians 1:10). This goes hand in hand with increasing in the knowledge of God, for as we learn what pleases Him, our fruitful works become more and more conformed to that knowledge. When Paul expressed how torn he was between the two possibilities of either dying and being with Christ or living on in this life, he said that living on would mean fruitful labor or work (Philippians 1:22). This phrase could mean that (a) his work itself was fruit, or (b) fruit would result from his work. In either case, his life and work were fruit. So may ours be.
3. Those who come to Christ through our witness are fruit. Paul longed to go to Rome to have some fruit from his ministry there (Romans 1:13), and he characterized the conversion of the household of Stephanas as the firstfruits of Achaia (I Corinthians 16:15).
4. We may also bear fruit with our lips by giving praise to God and thankfully confessing His name (Hebrews 13:15). In other words, our lips bear fruit when we offer thankful acknowledgement to the name of God. And this is something we should do continually.
5. We bear fruit when we give money. Paul designated the collection of money for the poorer saints in Jerusalem as fruit (Romans 15:28). Too, when he thanked the Philippians for their financial support of his ministry, he said that their act of giving brought fruit to their account (Philippians 4:17, KJV).
So Great Salvation, Charles Ryrie, Victor Books, 1989, pp. 49-50.
Through the years, John 15:2 has been the cause of a lot of confusion for many Christians. We read that “He cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit,” and we find ourselves “wondering what type of “fruit” is He talking about? And what if I fail to bear that fruit? Will I be “cut off”?
This line of thinking leads to worry, and has even caused more than a few to wonder if they can somehow lose their salvation. Today I want to challenge the traditional line of thinking that Jesus will cut us off from Him and the rewards of eternity with Him, if we somehow don’t measure up.
But there are other ways to translate this. I don’t want to turn this into a Greek lesson, but it is important enough for us to look at it. The word that is translated “cut” here in John 15:2 can be translated into English much better by the word “lift,” or “take,” as in “take away.” Here are some examples of ways that exact same word is used: (Note: words in CAPS represent the same Greek word translated various ways.)
Look with me first in the book of Matthew: Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will LIFT you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ ” Matthew 4:5-6 (NIV)
They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples PICKED UP twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. Matt. 14:20 (NIV)
Let no one on the roof of his house go down to TAKE anything out of the house. Matt. 24:17 (NIV)
Next, let’s turn to the book of John: The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who TAKES away the sin of the world! John 1:29 (NIV)
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! PICK UP your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to CARRY your mat.” John 5:8-10 (NIV)
“TAKE AWAY the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.” John 11:39 (NIV)
So they TOOK AWAY the stone. Then Jesus LOOKED UP and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. John 11:41 (NIV)
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone HAD BEEN REMOVED from the entrance. John 20:1 (NIV)
And there are some pretty remarkable examples from the book of Acts: On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. When they heard this, they RAISED their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. Acts 4:23 through Acts 4:24 (NIV)
Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was PICKED UP dead. Acts 20:9 (NIV)
When a gentle south wind began to blow, they thought they had obtained what they wanted; so they WEIGHED ANCHOR and sailed along the shore of Crete. Acts 27:13 (NIV)
As we passed to the lee of a small island called Cauda, we were hardly able to make the lifeboat secure. When the men HAD HOISTED IT ABOARD,they passed ropes under the ship itself to hold it together. Fearing that they would run aground on the sandbars of Syrtis, they lowered the sea anchor and let the ship be driven along. Acts 27:16-17 (NIV)
Then at least one final example from the book of Revelation: 5Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land RAISED his right hand to heaven. Rev. 10:5 (NIV)
So what is the point of all this? The point, in case you haven’t caught it by now, is that I believe that in the final hours before His death Jesus was trying to give the disciples some encouragement. They all, with the sole exception of John, would desert Him while He hung on a cross. Peter would deny three times that he even knew him, but the rest of them would be cowering somewhere in a dark corner.
They have been sharing their last meal together before the crucifixion, and Jesus has given them some final words. John 14 ends with the words, “Come now; let us leave.” So we imagine them leaving the room where they were eating together, and on their way to the Garden of Gethsemane, they passed through a vineyard. Jesus stopped at one of them and said, “I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener.” Then I can see Him kneeling down, lifting up a branch that had fallen on the ground, and saying to them, “He lifts up every branch that cannot hold its fruit up, or every branch that gets knocked off the trellis, he LIFTS UP.”
So what does that mean for us today? For all the times when we need to be lifted up, we need to remember that our God is a compassionate God, who does not delight in cutting off His people. Do you need lifting up today? The good news is that Jesus told us that He will lift us up! What are some important truths for us to remember when we need to be lifted up?
1. The first truth is that we often find ourselves “on the ground.” In the natural course of things, a branch will grow rapidly. As new growth, it will not necessarily grow where it is supposed to grow. Left to itself, it will tend to grow downward, aiming for the ground. That is much the way we are, is it not? Left to ourselves, we find ourselves running along the ground, so to speak. The Bible calls that our sin nature, and it is a natural part of who we are.
But there are other reasons why a branch might be on the ground. A strong wind or a heavy rain could also knock the branch from its trellis. The vinedresser must come through on a regular basis and check to see if any branches have fallen. When times of adversity come our way, our Heavenly Father picks us up and puts us back where we can do the most good and bear the most fruit.
2. The second truth: Jesus lifts us up when we are least likely to do Him any good. Lying on the ground, whether there because of its vigorous growth or because of wind and rain, the branch is completely unable to fulfill its sole purpose. The wood of a grapevine is good for nothing. In our day, we might fashion it into wreaths of some sort, but beyond that, it can be used for very little. You can’t build anything with it, and it is too soft for much of anything else. It doesn’t grow tall enough to provide very good shade. The sole purpose of a branch on a grapevine is to bear grapes! So the vinedresser must help it. On the ground it is covered with dust and mud, and is subject to mildew and disease. But on the trellis, it is able to bear fruit!
Chaplain Tim
LGB:
I don't want to sound as if I am unaware or unfeeling of those who have been abused, or defrauded, or otherwise mistreated by someone proclaiming to be a person of faith. History is filled with such tragedies.
I believe God will hold the abusers accountable, while dispensing immeasurable prevenient grace toward those who have mistaken the messenger for the message.
But just as there are those who are wolves in sheeps' clothing, there are many proclaiming to be sheep who are, as our brother Keith Green once said, are "Asleep In The Light":
"Do you see, do you see, all the people sinking down, Don't you care, don't you care, are you gonna let them drown, How can you be so numb, not to care if they come, You close your eyes and pretend the job's done.
Oh Bless me Lord, bless me Lord, you know it's all I ever hear, No one aches, no one hurts, no one even sheds one tear, But He cries, He weeps, He bleeds, and He cares for your needs, And you just lay back and keep soaking it in, oh, can't you see it's such sin?
Cause He brings people to your door, And you turn them away, as you smile and say, God bless you, be at peace, and all Heaven just weeps, Cause Jesus came to your door, you've left Him out on the streets.
Open up, open up, and give yourself away, You've seen the need, you hear the cry, so how can you delay, God's calling and you're the one, but like Jonah you run, He's told you to speak, but you keep holding it in, Oh, can't you see it's such sin?
The world is sleeping in the dark, That the church can't fight, cause it's asleep in the light, How can you be so dead, when you've been so well fed, Jesus rose from the grave, and you, you can't even get out of bed, Oh, Jesus rose from the dead, come on, get out of your bed.
How can you be so numb, not to care if they come, You close your eyes and pretend the job's done, You close your eyes and pretend the job's done, Don't close your eyes, don't pretend the job's done. Come away, come away, come away with Me, My love, Come away, from this mess, come away with Me, My love."
PastorBuzz In TN
So, whatever happened to that gardener who found an unproductive tree and, instead of chopping, pruning, burning opted to work with the roots, apply some fertilizer, invest more time?
I'm inclined to let this text speak more toward the stuff of discipline and transformation within the life of a Christian (pruning back the things in my life which hinder me rather than cutting off the entire person, or congregation, or religious denomination for that matter). My Theology leaves enough room for God's patient Grace in the life of every individual over/against some form of fear-tactics based on measurements of performance (fruit)
Perry in Lethbridge
Buzz in TN. Thank you so much for sharing the words of that Keith Green Song. I love Keith Green and miss his prophetic ministry.(Even though the words are often difficult to take in because they hit soooo close.) I see abiding in Christ as being attached to the vine, receiving our sustenance from Jesus which also means that our hearts are broken by the same things that break his heart(borrowing a slogan from World Vision International). That when we are attached to him, our prayers are in line with Jesus' life, and that our lives reflect His fruit. Susan in Wa
Sorry I made a contribution I see this is for US ministers only. Anyway since it was ignored no hardm done!
Sorry I made a contribution I see this is for US ministers only. Anyway since it was ignored no hardm done!
I'm leaning toward a theme of abiding in Christ being "practicing the presence of God"; engaging in the means of grace and corporate worship; but that there is pruning that takes place individually and corporately. There are "dead limbs" in our own lives as well as the body of Christ that for the sake of the body must be cut off and thrown into the fire.
I don't read this as shutting the door on grace. You're not kiling the plant, you're pruning the dead limbs. That part of our individual life that hinders our abiding in Christ should be pruned, so that which abides in him can flourish and bear fruit. The dead limbs lopped off from the body of Christ are not cast into "eternal fire" but a fire of a different sort, which will draw them closer to Christ if their hearts are open. Their unwillingness to abide and bear fruit may be the result of a rebellious spirit in need of being broken, so that God can shape them into a fruit-bearing vine for his vineyard.
I can preach this, and I can accept it for my own life and ministry. Quite honestly, as a part-time local pastor with a full-time job, I confess (and will be confessing to my mentor today) that my lack of spiritual discipline is making me a dead limb right now. I seem to be doing more work and abiding less in Him. I fear that if I do not get it under control that the ministry God is having me engage in is headed for the fire. Yet, I trust that if I submit this to God, He will show me the way.
Would God allow that to happen? I would say, "Yes." Would it be good for the body to let such a condition continue?
Why do we have such a hard time with this? Because we would prefer a God who does not hold us accountable in the normal Christian life. Quite honestly, that's the world's god.
PastorBuzz in Tennessee
Perry in Lethbridge writes:
"I'm inclined to let this text speak more toward the stuff of discipline and transformation within the life of a Christian (pruning back the things in my life which hinder me rather than cutting off the entire person, or congregation, or religious denomination for that matter). My Theology leaves enough room for God's patient Grace in the life of every individual over/against some form of fear-tactics based on measurements of performance (fruit)."
I'm inclined to agree with this perspective. Jesus tells the disciples that they have already been "cleansed" (the same word used for pruned). If the disicples have been "pruned" yet remain in Christ, it follows that they were not pruned away from the vine, but rather the unproductive things were pruned from them.
That's the Gospel!
Pr.del in Ia
For the contributor who thinks this forum is only for US ministers... All contributions are welcome here. We have contributors from all over the world, in fact. Do not be discouraged if your line of thought is not taken up in the discussion. Mine often are not, as I think, many others would admit of their own. So much depends upon what we're all focusing on for the week. However, I often find contributions that are helpful to my thinking that seem to have no response from anyone else. You don't know who you may be helping by your contributions!
StudentPastor (for another 6 weeks) in KS
Eric-
That's near my hometown!!! Anyways, congratulations (and bring your snow shovel), and best wishes, and all that jazz. What a great opportunity to go to Saudi Arabia!!!
Sally (now in not-so-snowy GA)
Oh, and I hear you about congregations self-destructing.
While, as a turn-around pastor, I'm more apt to look at the systemic unhealth, I am also constantly being brought face-to-face with individual unhealth (sin) and the fact that it's individuals' poor ways of coping with life (sin) that seem to congeal into poor ways of coping systemically. And it's so sad to see people whose lives could be better indidividually and collectively with fairly simple solutions (like learning forgiveness). Sinful individuals create sinful bodies. And sinful bodies often create sinful individuals, too.
Sally
In all the comments and questions about bearing fruit, and pruning branches, and the fruit to feed others ect. I must have missed something. I don't see any mention of the purpose of this.
Q. What is the purpose of a grape vine? A. To produce grapes.
Q. What is the purpose of grapes? A. To produce seeds that will grow more grapes.
If Christ is the vine, and we are the branches:
Q. What is the purpose of a Christian? A. To stay connected to Christ, and to become disciples who produce more Christians. Who will in turn, be connected to Christ, and become disciples who produce more Christians. ...... Shalom weldiger in WNC
I just had a thought (sorry for the multiple posts; I've been swamped all week and I'm catching up bit-by-bit);
We, too, lost three trees and a big branch in a recent wind storm. I had to buy a chain saw to cut them down into small enough branches so we could move them out of our yard and off our driveway. I tell you, my muscles were SORE! It's painful for the one doing the pruning, too!
Sally
One last thought then I promise I'll leave!
It seems we're struggling with something a little more basic than pruning sin and God's grace. We don't seem to be able to get to the root (haha) of what they represent!
Jesus says "I am the true vine ..." Not a church, or preacher, or any person ... "my Father is the vinegrower, the one who prunes branches in ME (Jesus is referring to himself!!!) so I can bear more fruit ..."
The implication is that we, too, are to bear fruit, but this isn't as allegorical as we're making it. Not only do we as individuals have unproductive branches, but Jesus makes it clear that we might, as individuals BE an entire unproductive branch as well. It would seem that I'll get a better handle on preaching this if I can just decide "who am I? and who are my congregants?" ARE we branches, or do we HAVE branches to be pruned?
If we accept that Christ is the vine, and that together we're his body, then it seems that we're branches who might very well be pruned away! (to add another allegory, as branches, what's pruned from us are twigs, I suppose).
However, looking a couple weeks back at Jn 3:17 - "those who do not believe are condemned already" - I might conclude that we've really pruned ourselves. It's not God's judgment alone; it's our deadness that condemns us, our unbelief, or faithlessness. To preach, I might then look further to the heart of bolstering faith.
I ran across a good quote this week (I can't recall the source or author - sorry), "Deep down, churches know they're ornery; they just don't know what to do about it." It doesn't build anything to harp on what not to do, or point out sin and inability to produce fruit -- folks know that already! (see I Jn 4:18 - fear and punishment) What folks need to hear is something about HOW to be productive. Staying alive and connected to the vine.
I might call mine "Staying Alive" (boy, am I a product of the 70's or what?). It's about abiding - and that theme has been clear throughout all the comments. It's just that we keep getting disoriented in the details.
Sally in GA
The process of pruning is not to be done with out reason.
When you prune properly, you prune to a bud. The bud is pointed in the right direction.
If a branch is dead, you prune back to the collar so that the area can heal. A Scar remains.
If you leave a dead branch, it will eventually begin to rott. Then the rot can spread and destroy the tree/vine.
You also prune so that two branches do not occupy the same spot. So that two branches do not cross and rub.
You prune for strenght.
I am going with the fact that through this passage, Jesus is calling us to examine ourselves. To prune out destructive behaviors. To take the dead wood out of our lives, so that we heal. We still bear scars, but we have eliminated the chance to rot. We prune so that we are going in the right direction with space to grown and bloom in. Then our life will Glorify our Lord. We remain vital in our faith abiding in Christ. I think in the last post when I spoke of Christ beeing the sap I was wrong, Maybe the sap is the Holy Spirit that flows through us. Nancy-Wi
Whoever made the comment about this sight being for US ministers only, I'm not sure where you took offense. All Christians should minister, not only ordained. This sight is open.
Very few comments are ignored, it's just that we cannot respond to all comments specifically, this sight would be overloaded!!!
The Spirit of God will weave much of what is gleaned off this sight into my sermon, and many others. Your comment (whatever it was) will likely "produce fruit" somewhere, even though you may never be able to witness what it does.
Please let the Spirit work in you, and continue to contribute.
Michelle
Nancy WI,
Thank you for your notes on proper pruning. I always knew there was rhyme and reason to the process, but never had it explained.
Now, what to do about those two brances in the process of divorce who both want to be in the same place and rub against one another... I don't want to be the one to prune one branch away (although I do know which one I would pick), but how else will God's pruning be accomplished? (Hopefully, through another "minister"!)
Michelle
Matt in MN - Thanks for your contribution early in this discussion. The way you worded things made for some good reflective questions in a couple of mini-worship services I led this week.
Amittai Dominic
Michelle, lol, the two that rub each other the wrong way one could be pruned for grafting (to another church) or you could try pruning back to buds that point in other directions! It seems in the case of divorce often one or the other leaves. Nancy-Wi
sally,
that quote you couldn't attribute was from the link listed above at christianity today.
hope that helps,
kc in sydney
Hey all,
I haven't even gotten to the end of reading your thoughts but have to say something before shutting down for a few hours. As a Lutheran who is doing a Confirmation service tomorrow, I am becoming increasingly aware of GRACE. Partly because my students wrote papers with amazing thoughts of Grace. I read this passagae and it is about ME. It is about my relationship with Christ. I am to focus on what God would have me do for the Kingdom. HE will do the pruning. I don't have to worry or frighten people. I have to LOVE them. I have to Share God's message of Love and Grace. He does the hard part. We go to church not TO BE FED, But because WE HAVE BEEN FED. When we get there, our job is to nourish others. The side benefit is that there is more than enough to go around and in giving, we receive. God's Grace does not require that I determine who goes to hell, or that I save them from it. God's Grace asks me to respond by loving.
ERIC.... I know some Saudi People. Their children were patients with my daughter at MD Anderson. Email me if you might like to have a foot in the door with some locals.
tjmor1964@yahoo.com
God Bless you. Tammy in Tex.
ERIC Correction to email address...I left out a t
tjmort1964@yahoo.com
Sorry this is such a late addition to our discussion, having help move our son to Fredericksburg, Virginia this week.
As the metaphor last week, the Shepherd and the Sheep, so with this metaphor of the Vine and the Branches. Again the evangelist is seeking to understand the experience of the crucified and risen Lord. What does this mean for the present disciples? How do we now live following the mystery of our redemption? The Epistle reminds us that love comes from God and no one can love without God, it was love that died and rose again and has entered our lives. The lesson gives us the example of Philip who reaches out to a marginalized person and draws him into the circle of salvation by his willingness to share a chariot ride with him and help him interpret what he was already reading from Isaiah. It seems to me that Philip is living out this new metaphor. It is only in Christ (the Vine) that we are able to bear fruit (action, compassion, etc); outside of Christ, outside of his resurrection we are alone.
This is only a quick reflection as I settle in to begin on Saturday afternoon my preparation for the morrow.
Thank you all for your wonderful reflections. And Eric, you are in our prayers as you begin this new journey in Ohio.
tom in ga
Thank you all (especially Pastor Buzz) for the help I've received as I struggled with this passage. Although it is nice to have people agree with me, those who challenge me help me to grow - some of that gentle pruning I guess. Thanks again and may God bless your preparation and preaching, and the people's receiving. LGB
I am trying to think of the purpose of the vine. The vine itself is not a single plant but many intertwined, many stems growing in and out of the soil which gives the peculiar flavour to the grapes that will eventually be plucked from the branches John sees Jesus using the image of the vine as an allegory of the church's relationship to its Lord. God is the vinemaster, Jesus is the vine, Christians are the branches and the fruit?
What is the fruit? or who are the fruit? and what is the fruit for? The only function, in this allegory at least, of the branches is to remain in the vine and to bear fruit thereby. The image of pruning makes sense,: that which does not bear fruit hinders the production of the entire vine. The deadwood is cut out. What we don't find an allegorical identification for the fruit. Perhaps to help, let's push the allegory a bit further. The branches of the vine bear grapes as fruit. What is done with the grapes? one of two things Dry them to make raisins for a preserved food ,or to make wine Who makes the wine? the vintner. to whom is the wine sold or given? by family members of the vinemaster, or better still sold on the market to those who would use it for weddings, funerals, seders, bar mitzvahs and the like. Ostensibly the fruit that the branches produce and bear is not for the branches own use and benefit. Someone else takes the fruit and uses it for food or drink. for a meal, for a party
In this piece I am more interested in what is omitted than in what is said.
The cost of not bearing fruit has less to do with our relationship with the Father and more to do with starvation in the bellies and spirits of the world
The issue here is not so much who's in and who's out and what do you have to do in order to keep in.
The fruit is not for the sake of the branches, not even for the vine. The vine produces fruit because that's the way the Creator made it to be. Even the white dusty fuzz on the grapes as they ripen is a mould a yeast specially designed to mix with the sugars of the grapes when crushed. The yeast feeds on the sugars, and the natural chemistry of the vine's intent is born. The special flavour of the mix of tannins, fruit, sugars, and alcohol make the water of life - Wine..
The world consumes the end product of the fruit And so the fruit we bear is for the good of the world. Paul's enumeration in Galations scratches but the surface of what is possible. At the same time, it is while in that conscious (or even unconscious - does a branch "know" it is part of the vine?) relationship with the risen Lord that we as a Christian people are able to be the most effective fruitbearers in the world. And so again I'd say The cost of not bearing fruit starves the bellies and spirits of the world.
Late entry I know...
I was at a meeting of clergy to talk about youth ministry this past week in Watertown, SD. We talked about what our Dakotas Conference does that is good and that we should keep doing. Some of the things we agreed on was, camps, and rally's. But the most important thing our youth do is witness. Oh, I don't mean they "pound people over their heads with Scripture" ? but they DO witness to their faith in the way they live out their lives. One pastor, Cody Schuler ? who came from a small town of Streeter, ND? he told me at lunch about the best experience he ever had was when he took his church youth group down to Texas or New Mexico. He talked about the day they cantelopes from what the harvest left over. It was on the edges, and they were too large or too small for the supermarket shelf, but they were still good. As they were working in the fields that day, they looked off to the adjacent field. There, they so the migrant workers, bandanas of sweat on their brow? picking cantelopes at minimum wage. It is then one of the youth had a revelation. "You mean THIS is where we get the fruit in our grocery stores at home? you mean someone like us goes out and bends over and picks the cantelopes."
With a new appreciation for others they worked on...
pulpitt in ND
It IS a "Good Read" Sally...
http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/8l3/8l3038.html
THANKS for the direction...
I appreciate the analogy of the pruning of members... although... some think it's because of my "watered down gospel"... seems I include too many "undesirables" in my Gospel.
Thanks again,
pulpitt in ND
TiminOH
Thanks for the great image...
a good point "we look connected" but some are just going through the motions...
preach it!
pulpitt in ND
Someone on the epistle board stated that the fruit is love. According to 1John 4, the result of abiding in Christ is love for one another. (Did you notice that the paragraph after this Gospel reading is the new commandment, to love one another?)
The Epistle reading also says that this perfect love casts out the fear of condemnation, ie. pruning/being cast in the fire.
For this reason my sermon will focus on abiding in God and loving one another. If my congregation understands that part, they won't have to worry about the fire. Besides, the Gospel is clear that God does the pruning, not us.
DSS