Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 1:33:37 PM
I believe that we are going to be ground like wheat in our own sins as a nation. We have turned away from God and many who say Christian want their own version of it. As the Supreme Court reviews sodomy laws one of our "justice" stated "we can't legilate morality." How bad must it be before we get down on our knees and repent for our sins. This dying to ourself so we can live for Christ is hard, demanding and not the way we normally do it. It challenges us preachers to get to the core of what the gospel is about --the dying and rising of Jesus and to remember that we are to carry the Cross in the footsteps of the Lord...pastor in Iowa
Date: 3/30/2003
Time: 7:47:02 AM
In my study of this passage, I am very curious about what those Greeks wanted to see Jesus about. They approached Philip who had a Greek name and who perhaps could understand their request. But Philip was evidently not the apostle who arranged interviews with the Lord because Philip brought their request to Andrew. We don't know if Jesus agreed to speak to the Greeks or not. We're left hanging.
I have just read in a commentary that one or more of the Church Fathers wrote a commentary on this. The Fathers wrote that the Greeks were so tremendously impressed with Christ that they wanted to invite the Lord to accompany their delegation back to Greece. The Greeks were filled with guilt over the wrongful death of Socrates and hoped that their invitation to Christ might help atone for Socrates' death.
The theory intrigues me and gives a new slant to what Jesus says about the grain of wheat having to fall to the ground and die to bear fruit. And when Jesus says that those who hate their life will merit eternal life, could Jesus be commenting on the power of Socrates' self-sacrificing death, the kind of death that He, too. would soon willingly suffer?
I was thinking about preaching on how desperately attractive a trip to Greece might have looked to Jesus who was just a few days away from from the cross. Those of us burdened by this war and and the sins and horrors of this age are challenged by Jesus' determination to face the cross without retreating or being diverted to easier paths.
Can anyone shed any more light on this Patristic theory? Does anybody know which Church Father(s) wrote this?
Tim in OH
Date: 3/30/2003
Time: 5:26:02 PM
Hi Tim in OH...there was a student in the congregation today who is doing an MA in Patristics. I'll see if I can't get some info from him that might shed some light on this. RC
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 4:59:56 AM
Tim in OH -- I'm not familiar with the Patristic theory you describe. It sounds very imaginative (and almost fantastic) to me. One has to keep in mind that the use of the word "Greek" in the Gospels and other Jewish writings of the time is not equivalent to our use of the word. It does not mean "people from Greece". In v. 12:20 "Greeks" is not limited to citizens of the peninsula region known as Greece, but refers more broadly to non-Jews of the eastern Mediterranean or the Fertile Crescent. With the conquest of most of the knwon world by Alexander the Great, Greek language and culture had become (and during the Roman period remained) dominate in the region. Many city dwellers adopted Greek as their primary language and culture; it was the language of commerce. Thus, John's Gospel does not refer to any specific group of non-Jews, only to "some" non-Jews from "somewhere"....
Blessings, Eric in KS (waiting for word from somewhere else....)
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 8:52:00 AM
It is interesting to me that this passage follows right after the comment in verse 19, "Look how the whole world has gone after him!" So here's an example from "the whole world", namely Hellenists, not necesarily ethnically Greek but culturally Greek. Philip, having a Greek name, was to some limited extent "hellenized" and could have met them in some cultural centre hence may have been witnessing to them. Philip was of the same town as Andrew (1:44) and appears to be a committed "personal worker". It is implied that Jesus spoke 23-36 in their presence but there was a lot going on with a crowd present, including the Pharisees who were looking for a way to "take him out". The imagery of the planted seed would be very understandable to such a wide audience and Paul builds on the idea in his discussion of the resurrected body - see I Cor.15:37. Verse 32 is also a continuation of last week's Lectionary passage of John 3:14. The glorification of Jesus is tied intrinsically to the resurrection. But that comes at a great price, the suffering of the cross, and we can sense the pathos and struggle Jesus expresses. It is not for him the dying but the means of death. I would like very much to hear some comments on the study of the Greek word used here translated "hate". - a Learner in Ontario
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 9:11:21 AM
Dear Learner:
The Greek word translated hate in v. 25 is mison from the verb miseo. My Greek-English lexicon says:
depending on the context, this verb ranges in meaning from 'disfavor' to 'detest'. The English term 'hate' generally suggests affective connotations that do not always do justice especially to some Semitic shame-honor oriented of miseo (e.g. Deut 21:15, 16) in the sense 'hold in disfavor, be disinclined to, have relatively little regard for'.
It then defines the verb as:
1. to have a strong aversion to, hate, detest
2. to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment.
The Lexicon suggests the second definition for this passage.
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 9:29:42 AM
What might those Greeks have meant when they wanted to "see Jesus?" Were they looking to follow him? Did they see something in Jesus that they wanted to emulate? Or did they just want to look at the man who was creating such a stir in Jerusalem? Ponderin' Pastor in IL
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 12:09:11 PM
Is there anyone moderating this site?
Some sick soul has entered a whole bunch of 4 letter words in the last entry for March 30th (John). Can anyone remove it??
Thanking you! CD in Vancouver
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 12:55:12 PM
The Greeks are said to approach Philip of Bethsaida, asking to see Jesus. Perhaps they approached him because he is one of two disciples with a Greek name (the other is Andrew), perhaps because Philip was from a city where there may have been many Greek-speaking God-fearers. What is important to notice is that the evangelist is not interested in narrating the outcome of this particular quest to see Jesus; it is simply a foil to stress the universal scope of Jesus' work, and the missionary direction the work of his followers would take after the Son of man was glorified.
from "John's Wisdom: A Commentary on the Fourth Gospel" by Ben Witherington, III.
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 1:49:28 PM
Who were these "Greeks"? The question continues to bother me! So I went to Bill Countryman's book "The Mystical Way in the Fourth Gospel" (Fortress Press 1987, ISBN 0-8006-1949-8) and read his take on this passage.
Countryman points out that while Paul and Luke use "Hellenes" to refer only to Greek-speaking Gentiles and "Hellenestai" to refer to Greek-speaking "Hellenized" Jews, the Johannine literature uses the one term "Hellenes" to refer to both. So Countryman supposes that these "Greeks" are Greek-speaking Jews!
He says: "While we know little about relations between Greek- and Semitic-speaking Jews in the first century, any division or antagonism that might have existed between the two language groups was surely minimal compared, for example, to the hatred between Jews and Samaritans, overcome already in Chapter 4. What is important in this case, however, is not the general question of relations between the two groups, but the fact that the Johannine literature is written in Greek. The Johannine communities somehow identified these enquiring Greeks as their own emergent nucleus. Despite the fact that they did not belong to the original following of Jesus ('are not of this fold'), Jesus has called them, too, and they have come." (pp. 83-84)
Blessings, Eric in KS (today hearing from Texas and Connecticut... oy!)
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 5:37:38 PM
Thank you to Tom in Ontario for the definition of miseo. Sounds similar to Jesus in reference to Mammon - will hold to one and despise the other. Matthew 6:24 There the word translated despise is katafroneo(?). I wonder if they are synonyms. I guess the reason for my contemplation is my discomfort with the idea of "hating one's own life". Are we not to love ourselves and use that love as a guide to our love for others? A Leaner in Ontario
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 5:50:57 PM
Two of the great themes of John's Gospel are the call to BELIEVE, and the GLORIFICATION of Jesus, who is the Logos, the living word of God,so hence the glorification of God for all the world to see.Jeus' being raised on the cross in this gospel is his glorification, the final sign of his identity as God's Son. In his glorification, which will come when the time is right ("the hour" which has come), the world (outside of Judaism, here represented by the Greeks)will be able to recognize and believe, and be drawn to God. The theological / spiritual challenge and paradox for witnesses and readers (=us) is to understand that in believing we find a quality of life that we could call true life, eternal life - such as is offered to Nicodemus and the woman at the well, and others. To not believe is to in effect settle for less life, a kind of weak, walking-dead life - as Pilate does in the trial in which it is him actually on trial- and "the world" on trial. In the presence of Christ, it is always us and our world who are on trial. Christ shows us the glory of God - God's intent to save and redeem creation and life, and by our believing or not, we "judge" ourselves. I'm not sure where this all takes me for s sermon, but I'm on the way. Since this is not a "story" passage with characters, we would need to find illustrations from outside the passage itself. Jim in CT.
Date: 3/31/2003
Time: 6:27:04 PM
I understand the 12th Chapter of John to be a culmination of those who have witnessed Jesus. We start in the Chapter 1 with John's disciples, then turn to his mother in Cana and then the Samaritan woman in chapter 4, etc. The Johannine community was extremely disverse (and was persecuted direly for it). The universal flavor of John is then reiterated in verse 32, "and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." In the theological and soterilogical theme of John this episode seems to simply point to the Greeks as the last of the Johannine community to have come to Jesus. Important to note is that John is a text (as are all the Gospels) written to its own community simultaneously as a a model of true discipleship and judgment upon those who were not true disciples (thereby also judging those outside of the community). One can, therefore, surmise that much of John's rhetoric is polemic in nature. So, what did this scripture mean to John's community? It seems as though there are those who follow Jesus but are unwilling to go the complete route, so-to-speak.
If metaphorically and existentially, the seed must die to then produce fruit, which suggests that to be a follower of Jesus one must be willing to travel the road to the cross, this shows the extreme times in which this small Christian community lived.
Moreover, for me, verse 27 speaks to a point in my own life that must be acknowledged: "I am troubled, but am I to ask God to save me from this hour?" I am sure that all who participate in this forum know the experience of being called or drawn, if you will, to difficult decisions, anxiety, self-recrimination, second-guessing, and the crossroads of the Dark Night of the Soul. What I have found very convicting in this passage is the implicit statement that even though I may wish to escape those hard decisions, and may in fact go to great lengths to do so, my true birthing (which happens again and again)--my dying to myself, or letting go of my life, or learning to hate the things in my life that separate me from God--takes place in the chaos, the turmoil, or in the words of Saint Ignatius--desolation of my soul and my physical experience. What is most difficult is trusting that where I am, is where the Spirit has brought me; and, therefore is where I need to be in order to bear fruit and be born again into my own future. I shy from this interpretation simply because it strikes too closely to suffering for the believer as salvific, but I cannot ignore the subjective truth contained here, either.
Peace,
Perry
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 2:41:16 AM
My church and I are struggling because our youth director, Pat, is critically ill. Two and a half weeks ago she began limping because of a "pinched nerve." Then the doctor thought it was a ruptured disc. Now she is in the hospital with a "growth" on her brain and yesterday we were told it is inoperable. Pat has been a key person in our youth ministry since last June and a staff member for about 6 months. Our youth group has doubled in size under her leadership. Her faith is an inspiration to our youth, their parents, me, and all our church. Pat is a true disciple of Jesus Christ, but she loves her life. She wants to live for herself and her husband and her son. She wants to live for our youth. She wants to live for Jesus and serve him and serve the church. We all love her as well and we want her to be with us, but it doesn't look like she will be for much longer.
V. 25 is a little problematic for me right now. I am a veteran pastor and this is hot the first tragic situation I have faced. Pat loves the Lord and her faith guides everything she does and says. I know she will have eternal life, but she loves this life, too. How does v. 25 square with the abundant life that Jesus offers in 10:10?
I relate to Jesus in v. 27. My soul is troubled. I am not asking God to save me from this hour. I believe it might be for this kind of situation that I have been called into the ministry. I see this as a situation in which the best thing I can do is model Christian faith for my church. I have to depend upon God and trust in God to get through times like this. My own wisdom and strength are not adequate, but Jesus Christ is more than adequate. Pat and I have given this to God.
Two more things: 1. My current situation makes a difference in how I read scripture. This is true not just in a crisis, but all time. I bring my stuff to the text. I am trying to interpret this text in light of what is happening in my church right now. 2. I'm not asking those who read this to try to fix the situation or to fix me. I am simply sharing what is going on with me and my church right now. I would appreciate your prayers for Pat, our church, and especially for our youth. I will listen to whatever wisdom anyone might have to offer. I know that I am not the only one who deals with tragic situations. Thanks.
Creature Wayne
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 4:09:52 AM
Re Who are the Greeks? Raymond E. Brown, in the Anchor Bible, draws our attention to John 7:35 to explain the Greeks: "We understand the term to refer to the pagan Gentiles of the Roman Empire who were influenced by Greek culture, and thus to be broader than Greek nationality. In 12:20 the term is used for proselytes (also Acts 17:4)... The Jerusalem Jews... are suggesting that Jesus may go off and become one of the Jews of the Diaspora, living among the Gentiles and teaching them."
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 6:21:57 AM
Creature Wayne
My prayers are certainly with you, your church, and especially Pat and her family. My take on verse 25 is that if one love's one's earthly/fleshly life (which is sinful and apart from a true relationship with God) then death is what follows. If one has given one's life to service to the Lord, then it is that new life which becomes the eternal life in the Kingdom.
Pat is described by verse 26 -- she is a true servant of the Lord, and she is and will be honored by the Father. Blessings to all of you in this time.
Don in ON
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 7:01:55 AM
In response to Creature Wayne:
I know your struggle. My nephew collapsed last Wednesday and has been unconscious and on a ventilator ever since. I do not claim to understand. I think we often let out understanding get in the way. I'm glad you and Pat have given this to God. As pastors and friends, I think we have to continue to state the promises of the scripture to ourselves and our congregations in the midst. We can't claim greater knowledge or understanding than we have. We can admit our own hurt in the midst. We can acknowledge others pain. We are right there with them.
Abundant life does not necessarily mean life without pain or sorrow. It doesn't even mean life with a body that works well. We can have abundant life in the here and now with bodies that are failing but we have to constantly look to the source of life to find it--and that gets more difficult as bodies fail and crises occur. But it is still possible. Sometimes the simple "counting your blessings" reminds us of the abundance we have even in the midst of death and dying, even in the midst of crisis.
Remembering God's great love for Pat, for your youth and for yourself is extremely important. When God seems like an unjust judge, we remember that he is not. When God seems distant and uncaring we remember that he is not. When we hurt so bad that we feel he doesn't care, we look to the cross and know that he does.
God bless you in this time as you all struggle together to know God for who he is in the midst of pain and suffering. I pray Pat will live well until the day she dies.
Melodious in KS
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 8:24:08 AM
Our congregations have been praying the Wesleyan Covenant Prayer (I think I got it from this site) each Sunday in Lent. When I introduced it the first Sunday in Lent, I shared how it is very difficult prayer to pray since it speaks of totally giving ourselves over to God. I encouraged them to pray it each day through Lent, suggestingt that it may get easier to pray. I have been attempting to do this and I find that I find I still want to place qualifiers after many of the phrases. "put me to suffering" - but not too much. This prayer seems to resonate with the John passage and the Hebrews passage where Jesus offers prayers and supplications and asks not to have to go through with the suffering. Yet in the end he does. I want to work with this prayer and Jesus' struggle and God's love written on our hearts. Hope I can pull it all together. I feel it is all of a piece and hope to be able to get that across. A bit rambling, but that's where I am this Tuesday morning. My prayers are with you and your folks, Creature Wayne. Blessings LGB
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 8:41:38 AM
Eric in Ks (for now): God's blessings upon your journey, whether it be Texas or Connecticut, or wherever. Having eavesdropped on your messages over the past year or so, I know that you know that God is in the plans and the decision.
I, too, am moving this year, not by choice. However, my move is only two hours difference. Even then it is difficult to leave family and friends and Church to follow God's call.
Creature Michael: My prayers are with you and your Church and especially Pat as she battles this tumor. As God gently guides and directs all of you, may you all gain confidence in God's amazing grace and love even in the midst of pain and suffering, and may peace abound.
Thanks for all the thoughts on this pericope, but I am going with the Jeremiah passage and speak about what is written on our hearts. Certainly, in the space offered to us here, love is foremost!
Shalom, Betty in NY
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 10:02:16 AM
12:25 Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Reading this verse in the shadow of suicide bombers is troubling.
And, call me stupid, but I don't get v. 33 - what in Jesus' previous statement says anything about the kind of death he was to die? The crucifixion? - like "being raised up," or is John referring to an unusually short physical death? It kind of "reads" like it's one of John's inserted insights to Jesus' self-revelations.
I'm starting late this week, but my first inclination is to focus on the grain of wheat as Jesus' metaphor for the necessity of being willing to let go of our life. Whether we let go of our lifestyle, our favorite music, our prejudices, or the old churchmembers' anthem, "We've Never Done it That Way Before," it's necessary to "die" in order to produce fruit.
Sally in gA
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 10:25:17 AM
Creature Wayne,
One of this congregation's members died yesterday morning of inoperable cancer, lung cancer that had spread to the bones and into the brain, a robust, active man, unexpected, and lasting only a few months from diagnosis.
My struggle is with the people who keep trying to point out how unfair it is that this person should suffer so. Should we have less sympathy for the couch potato who sits at home, inactive, but gets cancer, too?
Cancer is not fair. Sometimes we can point to a cause, but often it is indirect. Almost everything (in large amounts) seems to cause cancer--even the water we drink (containing some contaminants from the ground). But most of the time, there is no clear reason, because not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer, not everyone who chews gets mouth cancer, not everyone who drinks the water...
It is just as unfair when the widow no one sees anymore suffers alone... MY FRUSTRATION!!!
I feel for you, for your possible loss is tremendous. Is there any way for someone to learn from her example of giving, that the youth group may thrive--almost as a tribute to her example of using the gifts of God she has shared with all of you?
Bless you. Bless Pat. Bless you all.
Michelle
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 10:33:11 AM
Hi,
My early thoughts for this Sundays lesson fall into two portions. First, I am inclined to point out that 4 times John reports that the hour had not come, then, in v. 23 Jesus said it had come. The difference, according to my references (“Preaching the …Lectionary, by Fred Craddock, et.al.), seems to be that certain Greeks sought him out; that his message began to reach beyond his community to the gentiles; that finally the light would shine into all of mankind. Now, v. 32, Jesus will begin to draw all peoples to himself. The comparisons are listed below (NKJV). We are to follow the example of Christ and reach out beyond our own communities.
Secondly, I am also inclined to discuss the way Jesus choose to not ask for deliverance from “this hour” but to fully accept and even embrace the death he faced. When he did this the voice of God came from heaven in a way that made some think of thunder. The glory of the resurrection came only after the cross. We are to learn from Jesus that our true life will come only after we loose this life.
I am open to suggestions, clarifications and would really like stories that support and explain the concepts.
Leon in NC<><
John 2 4Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come." John 7 6Then Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. John 7 30Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come. John 8 20These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.
Compare to:
John 12 23But Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 10:33:41 AM
12:25 Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
My understanding of the "love/hate" usage in Hebrew and Greek has more of a "love/love less" meaning than our English understanding of "hate." Take for example the passage where God says, "I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau."
Therefore, in interpreting this verse, I read, "Those for whom life in this world is the most precious thing, will die an eternal death, but those for whom life in this world is less important [than their relationship with God] will receive eternal life."
I'm not sure the grammer works well in the way I've said this today, but I need to get working on a funeral message, so I'll leave it for now.
Michelle
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 12:09:10 PM
At this time of year I am usually thinking of (and will watch the video of) "Jesus Christ, Superstar." I grew up learning and singing that music when it first came out. One of the most poignant scenes is when the crowd, led by Simon the Zealot, is dancing around Jesus shouting their love and praise. Simon sidles up to Jesus and asks him to notice how the people are cheering for him. He suggests that Jesus' power could become complete if he would only "add a touch of hate at Rome" - then he would rise to tremendous power and receive all the glory forever. Jesus' reply is that no one there -- not Simon or the disciples or the crowds or the Romans or the Jews -- understands what power is, understands what glory is... he goes on to say "to conquer death you only have to die..." In this passage from John, Jesus refers to the hour -- meaning the hour of his crucifixion -- and says it is the hour for him to be "glorified." Then he immediately says "a grain of wheat... when it dies bears much fruit." It strikes me that we still do not understand what "glory" is, what "power" is in our daily world. We call a bombing campaign "shock and awe" and we think power is destroying a regime we consider evil. Jesus defined glory as allowing himself to die on the cross and his power came from his obedience to death. PKH in NC
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 5:23:06 PM
When the unbelievers come to faith, you know the kingdom is at hand. With every conversion to Christianity, with every baptism into the body of Christ, with each new reception into the Lord's family, Jesus is glorified; not our congregations, not our pastors, not even our denomination, but Jesus is glorified. In this world, during Lent and any other time of the year when it is so hard to be faithful to what Christ would have us do, Jesus is glorified when we resist the temptation to hate and perpetuate injustice. We see signs of the kingdom breaking in when peoples who decades ago would not live within the same municipal boundaries struggle to understand one another through Bible study and worship.
Jesus was lifted up not as a politician, but as sacrifice for sin and a model of the godly life. With the Gentiles seeking him out, it is time to move into the next phase of his incarnation - his passion - so that even more may come to believe, and subsequently have life.
As this chapter in our well-loved book ends and leads us to Holy Week and the Three Days, we hear Jesus restating his conditions for following him, and we are reminded that we must follow him. For lectionary purposes, these are Jesus' last words to us before he faces trial and death. They are, for many, his last words before the passion - the last thing some will hear him say because they will desert him before he is crucified. The last words of a loved one are powerful words. They shape our lives after that person has left us. We must follow so that others may follow, and in that Jesus is glorified.
from "Sundays and Seasons"
Date: 4/1/2003
Time: 6:43:38 PM
To the unnamed person who "publishes" Sundays and Seasons comments.
Do you have permission to do so? It is a great resource but without the funds collected from selling it, it perhaps would not be able to continue?
Pbob in SC
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 6:59:26 AM
Actually, I'm just looking for some info. on a song. We're using it at our midweek service tonight, but like to give a little background on composer, etc. Everywhere else I've looked has been a dead end. The song is titled "Beautiful". It's written by Dennis Cleveland and published by Maranatha! music. Anybody know anything about this song? Thanks - revjmk in ND
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 9:33:17 AM
RevJMK
OK, after my comments in defense of worship choruses last week I’m likely to be pigeon-holed in some fashion for knowing a “simple” praise chorus like this, but my daughter used to sing this all the time when she was three or four years old… (I bet Jesus loved hearing it even more than did I.)
The only other thing I know about the song is that "Charity Church Mouse" may have sung this in one of the Psalty Musicals... Kids Praise 4, I believe.
It's no help as far as the author background is concerned, but you asked...
Just another Tom
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 11:12:13 AM
Some Greeks wanted to come see Jesus. They approached Philip – I heard somewhere that Philip is a Greek name.
Philip may have been a Jewish Hellenist i.e. those Greek speaking Jews who lived both in the Diaspora and Israel taking on the norms of everyday life, rather than observing the Jewish faith stringently. (Kind of like modern Mennonites, and Mennonites who live the old fashioned way). Hellenists and Hebrews did not always get along, but it was typical of Jesus to assemble a variety Jews as part of the Twelve.
There is some discussion within commentaries whether the “Greeks” in John 12 were Hellenistic Jews or gentiles. Most say however that these were gentiles, because John the gospel writer has just finished talking about the Pharisees and the chosen ones who have resisted Jesus. The Greeks, the "unchosen ones", are representative of the Christians in John’s community who came to Jesus from the outside in.
How strange that Jesus does not take time to talk to them. Jesus did take time to talk to other Gentiles, like the Roman centurion and the Samaritan woman. Is the walk to the cross now so pressing that he no longer affords himself time to convince outsiders of his messiahship? Perhaps he felt that job would belong to the apostles.
Phillip doesn’t deliver the message straight away. He involves other disciples. He may not have felt comfortable bringing the Greeks to Jesus, both physically and spiritually. Are there times when we need others to help spread the message? Do we sometimes lack confidence on our own, but gain it in a group?
Rev. Karen in Ontario
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 11:28:46 AM
To Eric, after reading all your posts, I am praying and anxious to hear where God is leading you.
to Creature Wayne: prayers for you and Pat, the church and especially the youth.
Thanks for the posts everyone, it lessens the isolation we sometimes find ourselves in when it comes to exegesis.
KS now in ME
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 12:09:08 PM
12:25 Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Is troublesome to me because it's so often misinterpreted, used, and abused to buttress irresponsible theology. Out of context, and in English, it appears to sanctify suicide bombers. The Al Qaida and their ilk do the same thing with the Koran.
I don't have a title yet, but after lectionary group, here's what I'm working on, "At some point, we must confront the cross and submit to it. Without the cross, our Easter is a hollow victory - and, this being communion Sunday, without the cross the elements are rendered to us mere bread and juice." (recall the words of the Great Thanksgiving "make them be for us the body and blood of Christ so that we may be for the world the body of Christ redeemed by his blood ...")
I'm going to focus on submitting to the cross and what that does and doesn't mean. Any input?
A colleague quoted a t'ai chi saying that rings very familiar indeed, "the one who submits is the one in power."
Oh, and scratch my question from earlier; I'd forgotten that the ascension happened in one fell swoop in John.
Sally
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 1:21:15 PM
Just another Tom -- move over in that pigeon hole....
revjmk ... You can find "Beautiful" by Dennis Cleveland (written in 1982, btw) in the songbook "Praise - Maranatha! Music Hymns And Choruses - Singalong Book" which you can purchase from musicexpert.com at http://www.musicexpert.com/sheet/1701498.html
Blessings, Eric in KS (still.......)
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 2:29:01 PM
Oh ... revjmk .. you already have the song .. you just wanted info about composer... sorry -- don't have that.
Eric in KS
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 5:05:54 PM
Hi this is my first time contributing but i have been reading dp for some time now. Just one comment on John 12:25 it seems to me that Jesus is giving us a choice here between the material things of this world and eternal life. To many times we think that we can chose to follow Jesus and still worship at the feet of the Gods of this world Jesus never said that following him would be easy and i think he expects all of us not just the part that is easy to give. My sermon title for this week is, This life or the next? You must chose!
Bob in pa
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 5:05:58 PM
Thanks for all you contributions this week...thanks Perry. I think I will preach on verse 27, "Now my soul is troubled. And what should I say--Father save me from this hour?" That's about how I feel this week in my Lenten journey. In my personal life, I am facing what seems to be insurmountable obstacles and I have cried out in prayer, "save me from this hour." But God did not save Jesus from "this hour." Jesus had to follow the way of the cross. Through his death, there came resurrection. Exegesis in process: The Greeks who came to visit just before Jesus entered Jerusalem were offering Jesus a way out. The message to this point had been primarily to the Jews. The Greeks invited Jesus to take his message to the hellenized world. (One contributor noted that the Hellenistic world was already open to Jesus' message because of Socrates phl and self-sacrifice.) Jesus puts his message in an hellenistic framework i.e. speaks of the Spirit (very Johanine). So, while not accepting the offer to leave town and avoid the Cross, he does interpret his message in their cultural context. (The Gospel message is for all peoples--Jew and Gentile.)
Where's the hope? parable v. 24 "Unless the single grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit, Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life." Through this difficult and painful journey of Lent, the old way of being dies. Our greatest fear is that the process of allowing the old self to die will not bear fruit. Will this single grain survive the rains and the harsh soil? One sermon I read asked: Does the grain of wheat say, "no I don't want to be buried?" "no, I don't want to die so that I might bear new fruit?" If we bear with the process, a new faith and a new way of being will emerge from the seed inside the grain. rc
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 6:46:49 PM
Creature Wayne:
Sorry this is so late after your initial post about Pat. I tend to run late these days, what with the war and all. (I am bivocational, with my other job being that of newspaper editor.)
Your story of Pat really resonated with me. My home church's first full-time youth minister was a second career fellow named Bill Kessler. We were probably Bill's third church, and he really set our youth ablaze. Not long after coming, Bill discovered he had prostate cancer. He lived and served our youth nearly two years, I think, while going through treatment before passing. He was one of the few people I know of who seemed to truly possess the gift of wisdom.
A short time after he was diagnosed, I joined Bill and our youth for one of the occasional Sunday morning breakfast outings. Thinking of the "unfairness" of it all, I couldn't help but ask how he was coping with the diagnosis. In one of what we have come to call classic "Bill-isms," he said:
"I don't think God sits up there and says, 'I'm going to have this young person die a tragic death,' or, 'This person's going to be killed by a drunken driver,' or 'I'm gonna give this person cancer.' I think some things are just dumb luck."
Some years later I discovered Leslie Weatherhead's "The Will of God." I wonder if Bill read it, too.
My heart goes out to you, Pat and your youth group. But know this: Of the many things I, and the youth, learned from Bill Kessler, probably one of the most valuable eternal lessons was watching how he died ... as a person of faith.
It is my prayer that when my time comes I have the courage, grace and strength to live, and die, in a manner that reflects what I say I believe.
PastorBuzz in TN
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 7:14:04 PM
On hating one's life: Jesus did NOT mean that we are to hate ourSELVES. We are children of God and how can we hate God's creation? He also did NOT mean to hate our jobs or our homes, or our marriages, or anything that we DO on this earth. What we DO is only a superficial part of our lives. And he did NOT mean the disregard for life that comes from being depressed and leads to suicide. He was not talking about killing ourSELVES (as in suicide, or suicide bombing), but being killed for a higher good.
What Jesus meant is that we are not to be so attached to our life that we can't see anything more important than it. When we hate our life, we are willing to give it up for the sake of something good... for the sake of God, or truth, or justice, or love. It is not necessary to die physically in the process. What is necessary is to let go and give of ourselves, not because there is something in it for us, but because there is something outside of ourselves worth the effort.
We often think of being willing to die as a sign of despair. But it can be a sign of hope, trust and hope that truth and justice will prevail, and that God can turn even an evil situation into good.
We could say that our soldier's willingness to die is a sign of hope, that they can make a positive difference in this world. But we may need to point out that they are confronting evil by killing. And Jesus confronted evil by being killed. (A big difference!!!)
I also think that if Jesus went to the Greeks, it would be a distraction from facing the Jewish leaders. Maybe the Greeks were interested in him, and might have appreciated him more, but that was not the point. He came "for this hour", that is, to face the conflicts and evil in his own faith, and certain rejection and death. By staying in Jerusalem and facing death, the grain died. Only then was it able to grow and bring forth much fruit (to the Greeks as well).
DGinNYC
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 7:56:26 PM
Hi Tim In Oh, This is the most exciting view and though it matbe apocryphal I think it captures the mood so well.Sometimes in our desire to be biblicallly correect we disassociate the human aspect of mood.I think the congregation can handle the greek offer because it is what we deal with everyday the offer to take the better deal rather than make sacrifices.We avoid the topic because even as clergy we still seek the best deal
Date: 4/2/2003
Time: 7:57:31 PM
Hi Tim In Oh, This is the most exciting view and though it maybe apocryphal I think it captures the mood so well.Sometimes in our desire to be biblically correct we disassociate the human aspect of mood.I think the congregation can handle the greek offer because it is what we deal with everyday the offer to take the better deal rather than make sacrifices.We avoid the topic because even as clergy we still seek the best deal
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 5:41:35 AM
"Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
I've just been thinking ... not that it could be used in an homiletic way ... that this is the goal of every "search committee" (by whatever name in various traditions) ... to find Jesus to be their next pastor. Of course, they never do, but that seems to be what they are looking for!
Blessings, Eric in KS (waiting ... waiting ... )
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 6:38:41 AM
Dear Eric in KS:
I'd recommend an Alban Institute Publication called "New Beginnings: A Pastorate Start Up Workbook" by Roy M. Oswald. I think it's valuable even before receiving a new call.
In it he makes a comment something like you've made above. He writes:
"Rarely are those who serve on a search committee warned of the complexity of the task or the long, hard hours that will be required. Ninety-five percent of search committee members have never taken on such a job before, and most will never do it again. Just this one time, they give a 'pound of flesh' to their congregations.
"Because you are the end-product of the committee's work, you will find this small group of people highly invested in your doing well. Each member harbors a secret hope that you will walk on water and bring such energy and vitality to the parish that they will have to hold people back at the door. (They may not admit this openly, but they all hope they will be remembered as the group that made a super choice for the parish.)"
I went through this last April for my first call and was called by the first congregation that interviewed me (maybe you didn't want to hear that). Hang in, I'm sure God has a place for you.
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 7:02:23 AM
A Note on Jeremiah:
"The Word became flesh"
Is this not the same thing - Stoney tablets of Legal material transformed into earthy, dusty, vunerable hearts?
A Note on Hebrews and John:
How and where do we see Jesus? He is found in our own suffering and the suffering of the world. To follow him is simply to open ourselves to his vulnerability in order that our vulnerability might be held in the hands of God.
tom in ga
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 7:05:43 AM
Thank you all for very thought provoking and helpful posts on this text. A couple of comments.
1) on the hate thing. I notice that Jesus often says things in ways that are extreme as a matter of course. "I did not come to bring peace but a sword" "Easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle" and that John in his Epistles (as the youngest and thus most malable? disciple,maybe 16??) adopts his style "he who is born of God does not commit sin". I wonder if he purposely was extreme and cryptic TO CAUSE all this reflection. If Jesus had said "material things can cause us to loose sight of higher spiritual principles" we would all yawn and say "oh yeah" we know that. But when he makes the camel/eye of the needle statement we automatically say..."what in the world is he saying that makes no sense"....and spend time reflecting and questioning and being open to the Spirit's work. As modern preachers we (at least I) have the inclination to dissect and explain these radical statements to my congregation and thus risk loosing their "velcro" power. There is a great chapter in "Your God is too Safe" on maintaining the mysterious aspect of these things. I am thinking about doing less explaining this week and letting radical statements sit there and smolder.
2)On dying seeds, and he who serves me must follow me (to the cross). I think the persecuted church around the world today, in places where identifing with Jesus literally means risking life might read this passage in a context that is much more akin to the prediction? of Jesus (10 of the 12 originals martyred) than we do in affluent west. I am struggling with modifying this following to the place of being "lifted up" to giving a little of my time and cash to Christ.
3)glorification: This idea is usually of being honored, Knighted etc. Here the glorification is in being mocked and crucified. It is easy to see the glorification in the ressurection but I think this particular passage identifies the glorification with the cross,not the resurrection that follows.
Thank you again for all your help.
ChaplainTim @ Fort Belvoir
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 7:34:07 AM
Tom in Ontario: I know the Oswald (and other Alban) books well... I have several copies will marked up from doing work with search committees as a consultant. And, of course, I've been through this twice before... This is the first time, though, that I've gone through it (a) unemployed and (b) with an unemployed spouse!!! The tensions are much, much greater!
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS -- Sorry gang for intruding on the bible study...
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 10:48:04 AM
The tack I'm taking is the paradox of Jesus' glorification through his suffering. I'm speculating about the Greeks (because we don't know a whole lot about them) that they may have wanted to see Jesus after hearing about him raising Lazarus and hearing about or witnessing his entry into Jerusalem to the waving of palms and the cries of Hosanna. They may have expected what everyone was expecting of a Messiah, a conquering hero, a political and military leader to drive out the foreign occupiers. Jesus' answer is "the hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified" but not the way you expect, rather by falling like a grain of wheat into the ground and dying so that it bears much fruit.
We tend to clamour for the praise, for the glory, for the height and light of greatness but we try to avoid and deny suffering. My CPE supervisor used the analogy of one of the great cathedrals:
"Although the spires of the cathedrals reach and ‘a-spire' heavenward, what supports that relatively infinitesimal point is the buried foundations, depths and buttresses that are firmly and deeply and darkly planted in the ground. They are the bowels of the structure without which the spire could not exist."
It is in darkness and suffering that we find God, not by avoiding it but by going through it.
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 11:31:05 AM
Tom in Ontario writes:
"It is in darkness and suffering that we find God, not by avoiding it but by going through it."
Amen. However, this is hard to preach! Our people are not prepared to hear these words. It is even difficult for the preacher when he is facing his/her own rejection, loneliness, failure, etc. To say that God is to be found in "desolation" is a very hard concept, yet maybe this is why those who are sick or in trouble begin for the very first time to think of God.
Ontario Tom, what do we do with this concept. There is no doubt that Jeremiah is saying that some concrete (stoney) law, some objective rule book is not going to help the people obey, but only when the law is written in the weak, vunerable hearts; and it is only when Jesus is experienced in his weakness and suffering, through our lives, and not some objective, other-than human Savior, that we begin to understand our lives in Him. Indeed, the Word becoming flesh brings God into the mortality of our own lives, into the centre of our pain and suffering, and it is here that we are raised into his life through the Cross.
I think I need help theologically!
tom in ga
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 12:02:44 PM
Eric's quoting "Sir, we wish to see Jesus" applies even to us appointees, too. There are churches who swap preachers hoping that eventually they'll hit the Jackpot and get a Savior. It's sad how often we look for a Savior we already have.
We wish to see Jesus, but are we prepared for what we see? Are we ready to hear what he says? Are we ready to receive what he does (as last week's epistle says) as a gift?
Still looking for a title ... Sally
(blessings to you, Eric)
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 12:29:03 PM
Just a couple quick comments. Verse 20 seems clear that these "Greeks" were Jewish proselytes who had joined the many "out-of-towners" come for the Passover Festival. They were believers who sought the Messiah (not merely God-fearers) and hearing the claims that Jesus was the One they wanted to see him personally. They may have been among those who saw Jesus' "Triumphal Entry" and puzzled at his conduct (verse 13) and/or may have heard the testimony referred to in verse 17. If we follow the Synoptics Jesus had gone directly to the Temple after his donkey ride and "cleansed the Temple". He was back in the Temple the next day. So the setting for this overture by these Greeks was Passion Week. I personally think that Jesus was conscious that he had these Greeks and others like them who were struggling together with so many others to reconcile their understanding of Messiahship with the personna of Jesus. Jesus addresses his "Messianic" nature in terms of "glorification". I think that this would mean, in Graeco-Roman terms, the acknowledgement and celebration of greatness - the winning olympian crowned with the laurel; the triumphant general receiving adulation from a grateful government; a the greatest glory of all, the crowning of a new Emperor. In these terms was the Jewish expectation of the coming of the Messiah - a human triumph. And yet when Jesus speaks of being glorified (as the Son of Man) it is in direct relation to God, not as a deified Roman Emperor, as the instrument to glorify God (not man). As such he would not assume an earthly crown but indeed die but in so doing draw all Jew and non-Jew alike to himself in another Kingdom, God's Kingdom of Shalom. Jesus as the epitome of God's choice for exaltation/glorification, invites and challenges those who would follow him to change their ambition, their idea of greatness to life beyond death and life beyond the self-serving, temporal goals to divine aspirations as participants in the establishment of the Kingdom of God - doing the will of The Father. All these words would not, could not, be understood until after the glory of the resurrection. The glory isn't seen in the seed, only in the fruitful plant. I find John 15:16 important here so that we see that our "dying" is more to do with understanding that we are a part of someone greater than ourselves so that our attention turns to Jesus and God's ultimate plan rather than our own petty, myopic goals.
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 1:32:54 PM
Dear tom in ga:
Central to my Lutheran theology is a concern that the church be shaped by the Gospel - the good news of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What do we mean by being "shaped by the Gospel?" We mean accepting a reality that we humans would do almost anything to avoid, to ignore, to escape, to evade. That reality is this:
WE ARE CALLED TO DIE IN ORDER TO LIVE.
Luther called this reality THE THEOLOGY OF THE CROSS. Its opposite is THE THEOLOGY OF GLORY which is…
any way to live a religious life without "dying." any way to worship Jesus Christ without radical obedience. what great teachers of the Lutheran tradition have called…
"the word without the cross" (Martin Luther) "Admiring Christ instead of following Christ" (Soren Kierkegaard) "Cheap grace rather than costly grace" (Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
The theology of the cross is…
meeting God where he chooses to find us - in our sorrow, our pain, our weakness. hearing God's gracious word manifest in the death of Jesus on the cross. following Jesus in his death and resurrection.
God's own response to all our sound and fury is to remain the crucified God. The crucified God is not a god who can be called upon to bless economic systems, Christian schools, military forces, or political powers. The crucified God is the God who died at the hands of the Romans, in the gas chambers at Auschwitz, under the bomb at Hiroshima, of starvation in the Sub-Sahara, in the streets of El Salvador, in the deserts of Iraq—and the God who lives now as Lord and will put an end to all gas chambers, all bombs, all hunger, all death squads. The crucified God does not try to explain our evil; the crucified God suffers and dies as a victim of our evil, and precisely in suffering and dying overcomes evil.
True theology is a "theology of the cross," resting on the faith that the source of the most realistic vision of life is the death of God. False theology is a "theology of glory," resting on the speculation that man's effort guarantees divine forgiveness.
The theology of glory calls evil good and good evil, whereas the theology of the cross calls the thing what it actually is. Something very important is being asserted here. It is that belief, faith, whatever else it means, must never mean that I have to lie about what "actually is." I should not have to become a constitutional optimist in order to hope, Christianly. I should be free to call a spade a spade. If it is dark, I should be able without qualms to declare that it is dark. I should not have to go about smiling all the time, like poor deluded Malvoleo in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, or after the manner of some contemporary Christians who feel, apparently, that they must always wear "happy faces." In fact, Christian faith should make me more honest about the world as I find it, not less. I do not have to don rose-coloured glasses any more. And why? Because the source of hope for me is not some positive evidence that I expect poor Mother Earth to cough up regularly, but it is God: God who is able to bring something out of nothing, righteousness out of unrighteousness and human wrath, life out of death. The Christian is free to be honest about the world — to call the thing what it really is. It belongs to this Way to have a strong "orientation towards truth."
Shalom
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 2:54:47 PM
Dear Shalom,
Thank you very much for presenting the "Theology of the Cross" - I didn't realize until now how Lutheran this Anglican really is.
However it is not only Lutheran it is a view of reality grounded in the contemplative tradition of the East and the West.
tom in ga
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 3:38:27 PM
Thanks, everyone, for the caring responses concerning Pat, our youth, our church, and me. Pat is still in ICU and on a ventilator, but she is conscious and seems to be in good spirits. She even grinned at me today when I visited her. They are now calling the "tumor" a lesion (sp?)and are saying that if it is necessary they probably will be able to do surgery. However, they suspect that she has MS.
The good news is that our church has experienced God's presence and power in the midst of this wilderness experience. We had an impromptu prayer service for Pat on Tuesday night and over 90 people attended. I gave them an update on Pat's condition and tried to pray with them the same prayer that I prayed with Pat and her husband that morning when I anointed her with oil and prayed for healing. Then I "preached", giving them my best theological explanation of how I see this whole situation. I used an anology of an iceberg and said that God alone can see the whole picture and that God is working for redemption on a greater scale than we can conceive. I told them that this was a time for us to hold onto our faith and keep on trusting God, and that this is what Pat is doing. I didn't pull any punches, but said to them that it could go either way; Pat could get well and be back with us or we could lose her, but regardless of the outcome God is with us and with Pat. Then I served Communion, setting aside a special cup of juice and piece of bread to take to Pat and her family in the hospital. Just about everyone remained at the altar after taking Communion to pray for Pat and our church.
Jesus said when a grain of wheat dies it bears much fruit. I am seeing "much fruit" in my congregation right now and it is incredibly gratifying. We have been in the wilderness, but we have encountered God there and it has been good. Thanks again for your prayers and concern.
Creature Wayne
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 3:40:25 PM
We are the Greeks. PH in OH
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 8:41:56 PM
Long story (true story)... worth the read, I think...
I got to thinking about the way Philip and Andrew weren?t sure what to do with the Greek visitors who may have been new converts.
Reminded me of what happened on Sunday, and since I can't actually write this for a newsletter story in my church... but I want to "remember it" like I wouldn't if I didn't type it up... perhaps you all could use it sometime?
We had Confirmation Sunday in church last Sunday, March 30th. I thought maybe you could use it sometime...A Confirmation Story ... I can't use it here, because I'm too close to it... I've changed the names...to protect "Barry's" identity.
Barry started coming to Confirmation this year, Barry had a girlfriend that attends our church, so she invited Barry to Confirmation. He came regularly, didn't miss a time, until his dad put him into local psych Hospital. The wrong one was put there. During his time in the hospital his dad let me come and visit, also Harold - his adult mentor 60+ years old was allowed to visit. Following his hospital stay he returned to confirmation. He went to Confirmation Camp with us and continued attending all the classes.
The day of the "interviews' took place, Barry didn't show even though he signed up for a time. I tried to call his home, the line was always busy. No matter when I tried, it was busy. His mentor tried to call too. Saturday night, (Confirmation Eve) we held a banquet in the Confirmands honor. Barry was once again absent. Harold (his mentor) asked if I ever got a hold of Barry, I told him the line was always busy. Saturday night, the night before Confirmation Sunday I and Harold called and still got a busy signal... they are often on the phone.
Barry's family includes his father, "Wesley" his real name... :-\ he has two sisters and a younger brother, he's the first son, second child of four. ANYway... I told Harold I'd try and get a hold of Barry, before the morning. I drove to his home. Rang the doorbell, his little brother answered the door. I asked if "Barry" was home, he said he wasn't. I asked if I could talk to his dad, he said he was in bed. (9:00PM) on a Saturday night. "Do you know when Barry will be home?" "Well, he went to Video Land" a video store just up the street. I thanked him anyway...
I thought, well Barry doesn't have a car, I'll just stop and see if he's still at Video Land. I pulled up to Video Land. I entered the store, which is not "BlockBusters" or "Video Magic"... it's a "Ma and Pop" corner store like I remember from my youth, but instead of candy and groceries they rented videos.
At the front counter I found "Rudy" (his real name - I'm going to give him my video business from now on too... here's why...) his face was surrounded by his mustache and unkempt kind of wild hair (personality of Captain Kangaroo). I did a quick panicky kind of search... no Barry.
Finally I began walking through the store hoping he was kneeling down looking for videos. I came around the first corner to the left and looked to my right, and there was Barry leaning against the counter talking to the owner behind the desk.
I said, "Barry, we missed you at the Confirmation Banquet tonight!" "I know," said Barry. Rudy exclaimed, "Barry, you didn't tell me you were getting confirmed!" "Well, I'm really not going to!" said Barry. "What?" said Rudy, "Why would you miss that?" "I don't know." said Rudy as he looked down at his tennis shoes that seemed swollen from standing there so long. "Here Barry," said Rudy, "Take this $20 and go over to the bowling alley and get me a roll of quarters and 2 $5's will ya? And don't forget to come back!" Rudy said with a smile. Barry left on his errand.
"He's a nice kid, that Barry, he's been hanging out here for years, he usually comes by after school to see if he can help me out, I let him watch movies here, nothing stronger than pg13... he says his dad lets him watch R rated movies, I told him that's not right, he says his dad doesn't care, I care! Do you know what he told me his dad said today?" "No what?" "He called him a LOSER! that's not right either!" Rudy said he'd do his best to see to it that Barry was in church in the morning. Then he showed me something amidst the clutter of tape boxes, videos, receipts, paper and books on videos... he placed a Paper Towel Holder (the kind you nail to the wall in your kitchen) on it's end the top of a pile of clutter as if it were a trophy - the wooden dowel holding the paper poked out the top.. "Barry gave me this earlier this year!" said Rudy. "He made it in shop class!" It was a paper towel holder, with a roll of paper towels half gone. He turned it so I could see the inscription... "To Rudy, My friend, from your friend Barry"... "I felt kind of guilty when he gave this to me." said Rudy. I said, "Barry, why didn't you give this to your dad?" "Because I wanted to give it to you." he recalled. "Well you better make your dad something." "Yep, that Barry is a good kid!"
Barry returned with the change at this point... Rudy started in again, "Barry, I think you'll regret this if you don't follow through on this. "Here's your chance to show your Dad is wrong in what he said to you today." "I can't believe you missed the Banquet, free food and everything..." he said with a wink. Barry said, "Well, I'm going for Sandy (his girlfriend)... I'm just not going to get confirmed myself." "Pastor, I'll see to it he's there tomorrow, ready to be confirmed!" I thanked Rudy for his help... and got in my car thinking how Rudy was an angel that had come into Barry's life and mine.
Sure enough, the next day, Barry came to church, before he could say too much, he had a carnation on his shirt. (An over zealous Mentor had caught him with his guard down.) I came by and saw a huge smile on his face, "Well Barry, you going to do it today!" "Yep, I guess so!" he said.
The time came for Barry to be confirmed, I had invited the parents and mentors to come forward, and at the time of laying on of hands, the parents and mentors joined my hands. When it came to Barry, his mentor and I were the only hands on Barry. Behind him, no one stood (I?d like to say that Rudy stood there? but he didn?t want to cause any problems.. Although in the congregation our Youth Director stood in silent support of him, as did her boyfriend and a few others that knew his story..
THAT is what the church is all about, standing for those who have no one to stand in support of them!
After church, Sally's family mentioned that the Bakery had made a mistake and had given them 2 flat cakes instead of just one... so they had sent their oldest daughter out to buy some frosting to add Barry's name to the cake. We arrived at the party... "Congratulations Barry was scrawled on the cake!"
Yes, that's what the church is all about...
Praying for the "Barry's" of the church and God's world,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 8:47:05 PM
Long story (true story)... worth the read, I think...
I got to thinking about the way Philip and Andrew weren't sure what to do with the Greek visitors who may have been new converts.
Reminded me of what happened on Sunday, and since I can't actually write this for a newsletter story in my church... but I want to "remember it" like I wouldn't if I didn't type it up... perhaps you all could use it sometime?
We had Confirmation Sunday in church last Sunday, March 30th. I thought maybe you could use it sometime...A Confirmation Story ... I can't use it here, because I'm too close to it... I've changed the names...to protect "Barry's" identity.
Barry started coming to Confirmation this year, Barry had a girlfriend that attends our church, so she invited Barry to Confirmation. He came regularly, didn't miss a time, until his dad put him into local psych Hospital. The wrong one was put there. During his time in the hospital his dad let me come and visit, also Harold - his adult mentor 60+ years old was allowed to visit. Following his hospital stay he returned to confirmation. He went to Confirmation Camp with us and continued attending all the classes.
The day of the "interviews' took place, Barry didn't show even though he signed up for a time. I tried to call his home, the line was always busy. No matter when I tried, it was busy. His mentor tried to call too. Saturday night, (Confirmation Eve) we held a banquet in the Confirmands honor. Barry was once again absent. Harold (his mentor) asked if I ever got a hold of Barry, I told him the line was always busy. Saturday night, the night before Confirmation Sunday I and Harold called and still got a busy signal... they are often on the phone.
Barry's family includes his father, "Wesley" his real name... :-\ he has two sisters and a younger brother, he's the first son, second child of four. ANYway... I told Harold I'd try and get a hold of Barry, before the morning. I drove to his home. Rang the doorbell, his little brother answered the door. I asked if "Barry" was home, he said he wasn't. I asked if I could talk to his dad, he said he was in bed. (9:00PM) on a Saturday night. "Do you know when Barry will be home?" "Well, he went to Video Land" a video store just up the street. I thanked him anyway...
I thought, well Barry doesn't have a car, I'll just stop and see if he's still at Video Land. I pulled up to Video Land. I entered the store, which is not "BlockBusters" or "Video Magic"... it's a "Ma and Pop" corner store like I remember from my youth, but instead of candy and groceries they rented videos.
At the front counter I found "Rudy" (his real name - I'm going to give him my video business from now on too... here's why...) his face was surrounded by his mustache and unkempt kind of wild hair (personality of Captain Kangaroo). I did a quick panicky kind of search... no Barry.
Finally I began walking through the store hoping he was kneeling down looking for videos. I came around the first corner to the left and looked to my right, and there was Barry leaning against the counter talking to the owner behind the desk.
I said, "Barry, we missed you at the Confirmation Banquet tonight!" "I know...," said Barry. Rudy exclaimed, "Barry, you didn't tell me you were getting confirmed!" "Well, I'm really not going to!" said Barry. "What?" said Rudy, "Why would you miss that? Free food!" Rudy smiled.
"I don't know." said Rudy as he looked down at his tennis shoes that seemed swollen from standing there so long. "Here Barry," said Rudy, "Take this $20 and go over to the bowling alley and get me a roll of quarters and 2 $5's will ya? And don't forget to come back!" Rudy said with a smile. Barry left on his errand.
"He's a nice kid, that Barry, he's been hanging out here for years, he usually comes by after school to see if he can help me out, I let him watch movies here, nothing stronger than pg13... he says his dad lets him watch R rated movies, I told him that's not right, he says his dad doesn't care, I care! Do you know what he told me his dad said today?" "No what?" "He called him a LOSER! that's not right either!"
Rudy said he'd do his best to see to it that Barry was in church in the morning. Then he showed me something amidst the clutter of tape boxes, videos, receipts, paper and books on videos... he placed a Paper Towel Holder (the kind you nail to the wall in your kitchen) on it's end the top of a pile of clutter as if it were a trophy - the wooden dowel holding the paper poked out the top.. "Barry gave me this earlier this year!" said Rudy. "He made it in shop class!" It was a paper towel holder, with a roll of paper towels half gone. He turned it so I could see the inscription... "To Rudy, My friend, from your friend Barry"... "I felt kind of guilty when he gave this to me." said Rudy. I said, "Barry, why didn't you give this to your dad?" "Because I wanted to give it to you." he recalled. "Well you better make your dad something." "Yep, that Barry is a good kid!"
Barry returned with the change at this point... Rudy started in again, "Barry, I think you'll regret this if you don't follow through on this. "Here's your chance to show your Dad is wrong in what he said to you today." "I can't believe you missed the Banquet, free food and everything..." he said with a wink. Barry said, "Well, I'm going for Sandy (his girlfriend)... I'm just not going to get confirmed myself." "Pastor, I'll see to it he's there tomorrow, ready to be confirmed!" I thanked Rudy for his help... and got in my car thinking how Rudy was an angel that had come into Barry's life and mine.
Sure enough, the next day, Barry came to church, before he could say too much, he had a carnation on his shirt. (An over zealous Mentor had caught him with his guard down.) I came by and saw a huge smile on his face, "Well Barry, you going to do it today!" "Yep, I guess so!" he said.
The time came for Barry to be confirmed, I had invited the parents and mentors to come forward, and at the time of laying on of hands, the parents and mentors joined my hands. When it came to Barry, his mentor and I were the only hands on Barry. Behind him, no one stood (I'd like to say that Rudy stood there? but he didn't want to cause any problems.. Although in the congregation our Youth Director stood in silent support of him, as did her boyfriend and a few others that knew his story..
THAT is what the church is all about, standing for those who have no one to stand in support of them!
After church, Sally's family mentioned that the Bakery had made a mistake and had given them 2 flat cakes instead of just one... so they had sent their oldest daughter out to buy some frosting to add Barry's name to the cake. We arrived at the party... "Congratulations Barry was scrawled on the cake!"
Yes, that's what the church is all about...
Praying for the "Barry's" of the church and God's world,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 4/3/2003
Time: 9:12:47 PM
I have been reading our contributions this week with interest, just following the different reflections and trains of thought. I found when I didn't agree, I just holding the writer's thoughts as having meaning to them and moving on. I found myself pausing for special prayers for Eric (and family) and Creature Wayne, Pat and their church.
I then found myself reflecting on how this pericope describes the actions of the non-jews(what I call the Greeks),Phillip and Andrew, and the Jesus' words that "it is time for the Son of Man to be glorified."
I then reflected on an incident that has happened in my own ministry. At the sudden death of a prominent young person in our church, an attender to her funeral began to come regularly to our church. She hardly ever missed a Sunday. She alway's said it seemed as though I was preaching directly to her. I wasn't. She would come and tell of her unemployment predicament and other major problems in her family's life. We would pray and talk about possibilities. Things just went from bad to worse. I prayed to God to fix her situation. I felt so helpless. Nothing seemed to work. In many ways I began to feel like such a failure in my ministry to her. The more failure I felt, and the worse her situation became, the more she came to hear me preach, constantly saying, "It seems like you're preacing directly to me." I wasn't and I never could fix her situation.
Last Sunday she came to the early service and with joy announced that her prayers had been answered with new employment and how God had been slowly leading her through the ordeal. She came forward to hug me and thank me for being her pastor through all of this. I couldn't really see how I had been such a blessing for her, but thanked God that I had been used even if I didn't know how.
As she returned to her seat, an overwhelming realization came to me. I had a special need; An advising, legal need, and this parishioner fit the expertise profile. I asked her, and she was delighted to help although she didn't see how helpful she would be. I am so grateful, because already she has been such a blessing to me in my need, and you know folks, when I tried to tell her how much she is helping me, and how God sent her to me, she can't see it.
Shalom
Pasthersyl
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 7:47:04 AM
Thank you pulpit in ND and Pasthersyl ...your sharing has made my day!!! My heart needed what you gave. KB in ks
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 9:12:05 AM
Thank you, Shalom, for your comments on the theology of the cross. You helped me focus my thoughts on this passage. Here is another thought. I heard in a lecture once that the people in New Testament times did not understand how seeds germinate. For them, a seed planted in the ground is dead and buried. The seedling which sprouts sometime later is a discontinuous miracle - life arising out of death. So, unless the grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, nothing will come of it. But if it dies, then it will bring forth much fruit. The deaths that you mentioned, from war, disease, or starvation, or our own failures - the youth who continues in risky behavior despite all our efforts, the sermon that fell flat, the workshop that nobody signed up for - these are the seeds that fall to the ground and die. Nothing we can do will bring them to life. But God acts through the death and failure, creating life.
Peace, boz in CA
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 12:17:36 PM
Thank you Boz in CA, We often forget the difference in scientific knowledge between then and now. Learner in Ontario
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 12:36:42 PM
You can access a Greek dictionary at this site: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek I found it very helpful. Learner in Ontario
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 1:46:25 PM
It's kind of maddening when Jesus doesn't SEEM to respond to Philip's information that the Greeks are there to see him....but eventually he does respond. They will "SEE" him when he is lifted up from the earth.
His mission to the world begins to take shape when the Greeks come to see Jesus. In John, sight often means faith. (On the other hand, one online commentary I read emphasized that these Greeks may have simply been curious. They prided themselves on their intellectual culture and their curiosity.)
So the mention of the Greeks/non-Jews and the "being lifted up" and the grain of wheat are all "intertwingled."
Of course, this only makes sense if we interpret Greeks as Gentiles, not Greek-speaking Jewish believers.
I found a poem somewhere that speaks to that idea of wanting only to "see" Jesus with the eyes of curiosity, not of faith. It also, I think, speaks of dying to self, the grain of wheat....
Please excuse the lengthiness:
I would like to buy three dollars worth of God, please. I would like to buy just a little of the Lord. Not enough to explode my soul or disturb my sleep, Not enough to take control of my life; I’ll keep Just enough to equal a cup of warm milk, Just enough to ease some of the pain from my guilt. I would like to buy three dollars worth of God, please. I would like to find a love that’s pocket sized, Not enough to make me love a black man. Not enough to change my heart; I can only stand Just enough to take to church when I have time, Just enough to equal a snooze in the sunshine. I want ecstasy, not transformation. I want the warmth of the womb But not a new birth. I would like to purchase a pound of the eternal In a paper sack guaranteed or money back. You see, I would like to buy three dollars worth of God, please. Author unknown
Peace (pray for it!), Metz, Indiana
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 2:10:55 PM
I thought I would share a story I came across this week (can't quite remember where) that fits vv. 26-26. There is a story from the fourth century about a young king who went to visit a saintly desert monk. the old man lived in the desert outside Cairo after the age ofpersecution. He was one of many people who sought to live out the commands ofChrit by giving up the pleasures ofthe world and selling all that they owned. When the King saw the monk, he dismounted his great steed and approached the man. They stood in silence for a moment and then the king said, "What a wonderful sacrifice you are making!" The monk answered, "What do you mean? YOUR sacrifice is much greater." The king was startled. "I don't understand." The mond answered, "Because I have only renounced the passing world, while you, young king have renounced the eternal world." rc in quebec
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 6:46:16 PM
Perhaps this will help someone with the issue of losing and saving our life. In her book, "The Summer of the Great-grandmother," Madeleine L'Engle wrote: ...if I am to reflect on the eventual death of her body, of all bodies, in a way that is not destructive, I must never lose sight of those other deaths which precede the final physdical death, the deaths over which we have some freedom; the death of self-will, self-indulgence, self-deception, all this self-devices which, instead of making us more fully alive, make us less.
"The times I have ben most fully me are when I have been wholly involved in someone or something else; (M. L'E. gives examples). A long-dead philosopher said that if we practice dying enough during our lives we will hardly notice the moment of transition when it comes. But I am far from a saint, and I am seldom able to practice consciously this kind of dying; it is not a do-it-yourself activity. I know about it only after it has happened, and I am only now beginning to recognize it for what it is." (Chapter 10)
Eric in KS, thoughts and prayers to you in your waiting. There's a tongue-in-cheek prayer that suits perhaps: "God, grant me patience - and I need it right now!"
Creature Wayne, my people and I shall hold you, Pat and your congregation in prayer too. May I offer that through many years of ministry, both lay and ordained, I have learned that eventually God does make sense of it all, though that's not much help when we're going through the dark night. Sometimes we may be blessed with personal experience of grace, as I was when my husband was very near death (on life support with almost no hope of survival). Seven people from my parish telephoned over three days, folk who probably hadn't talked to each other (a fractured parish at the time), but who all said exactly the same words: "Frandy, what you and Jim are going through is terrible, but I just want you to know that, out of this, we're all learning to care for each other better." By the third or fourth call I was getting the message! Even if Jim didn't survive, good was coming out of the horror: to me, that's grace. (Jim did survive, truly a miracle, and is a "new man" in many ways, thanks be to God. Even in my gratitude, I do struggle with "why us," when for so many others the outcome is deep pain and sorrow..)
Other times, that grace may not be so evident. After losing part of one hand in an accident, the fourth surgery to repair and rebuild it was developed on people injured in the Vietnam conflict. I was only the second person in Canada to have it, and I've often wondered if those wounded souls have any idea that good has come out of their suffering. If anyone knows such a person, please thank them for me - I can even play the piano again, not well, and Beethoven would probably be horrified, but I enjoy it!
A long post, but offered with thaks for all I've learned from all of you.
Blessings - Frandy
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 6:55:32 PM
Sorry - that's "THANKS" to all of you - and I really mean it! Blessings - Frandy
Date: 4/4/2003
Time: 7:36:00 PM
Verse 21 makes me question whether or not my life is such a reflection of the light of Christ that a stranger would come to me and ask me to introduce him/her to Jesus. Do the lives of those who come seeking Christ each week be such a reflection?
The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified in my life and yours!
THE HOUR HAS COME (almost) TO TURN THE CLOCK AHEAD AN HOUR!
pax, katinPA
Date: 4/5/2003
Time: 3:21:00 AM
Thanks Frandy, et.al.
Since the Tuesday night prayer service for Pat I've had lots of comments about how good it was for the youth to see faith at work. I have agreed with them, but frankly, I think it has been even better for the adults who were present to have an experience of God's presence and power and to learn to exercise their faith. I include myself with those adults, by the way.
Many people have said that God has a purpose in this. I sort of nod but don't say anything. The truth is I couldn't stay in the ministry if I thought God caused this to test us or to teach us a lesson, or to make us stronger, although we have learned from it and it has made us stronger. I think Paul talked about how all of creation is groaning in travail waiting for God's ultimate redemption. I believe that diseases and birth defects and war and all the other bad things that happen are part of the overall brokenness of all of creation. Everytime I have experienced tragedy, God has been in the midst of the rubble, cleaning up the mess, redeeming human life, bringing new life and new beginnings where there has been death and destruction. I get excited working for a God like that. Thanks again.
Creature Wayne
Date: 4/5/2003
Time: 6:49:53 AM
Late submission, but after reading suggestions as to who the Greeks were, I can't help but wonder if they were the same people who saw Jesus drive out the money-changers in the temple. The money-changing was taking place in the place set aside for the "God-fearing" Greeks to pray in the temple. They may have been impressed with Jesus' desire to clear out a place for them to pray and even may have come to thank him. Sounds a bit crazy perhaps, but seems plausible to me. . . I am concentrating this week on the "We would see Jesus" part of the passage. People today are searching for Jesus, many just don't know what they are searching for. The Greeks knew they were searching for Jesus. The words to the old gospel song, "Let Others See Jesus in You" came to me as I was preparing and I am using the words as a poem, even though they are not in our hymnal. Talking about what Jesus' characteristics are, do people see them in us. . . Pastor Midge in NNY
Date: 4/5/2003
Time: 9:13:15 AM
A late comment on something Eric from KS said...
I am the youngest of five in my family, much younger than the rest. When my father was dying, I jumped into the role of the peacemaker/pastor instead of the daughter/sister. My home congregation pastor said to me, "Janez...you cannot be their Savior. There is only one Savior."
Those words have always stuck out to me. I share them now because of your comment Eric on how congregations search for a pastor who is like Jesus.
Thanks for the thoughts on the text this week.
PJ in WI
Date: 4/5/2003
Time: 9:16:09 AM
A very late note: "Theology of the Cross" is very Franciscan, as well. I am not a RC, but am very familiar with Franciscan theology.
Eric, I've not checked in to this site for a couple weeks. You are your family are certainly in my prayers. You are such a blessing to so many of us! lp in CO
Date: 4/5/2003
Time: 1:11:05 PM
Thank you pulpit in ND.
Beautiful imagery--just great.
Pamela in CA
Date: 4/5/2003
Time: 1:59:19 PM
I have always been intrigued by the fact that when the person requested to see Jesus, he did not respond to their request. But this week I thought--maybe he did respond. Perhaps the response of "losing one's life to save it," and "Wherever I am, there will my servant be also" suggests that people are to see Jesus in us. Jesus was about to be glorified and returned to heaven. He lives on in this earth through his body, the church (us). People--Greeks, et al--are to see Jesus in us. PD in Queens
Date: 4/5/2003
Time: 5:02:22 PM
To Creature Wayne: Hope I'm not too late for you to see this. Fully agree with your understanding of and approach to your most difficult situation. The phrase "loves his life" here as you compared to "love your neighbor as yourself" has sent me back to the Greek! The love here is "philia," affectionate, brotherly (sisterly) love. So we could paraphrase, "he who is comfortable with, cozy's up to his life." The love in the other passage is "agape," a passionate decision to care for the value and meaning of a life, another's as much as one's own. I think of Fr. Damian who passionately cared for those whom society rejected (the lepers of Hawaii) as he cared for for his own life, a person rejected by the nice people of the church because he was so uncouth and passionate. He cared enough for his life to make it mean something by serving others rather than wallowing in self-pity. Thanks for sharing. revhen in NY