Date: 3/6/2003
Time: 1:21:02 PM
What really makes God mad? Homosexuals? Liberals? Adulterers? What drives the Prince of Peace to violence?
Fool For Christ
Date: 3/12/2003
Time: 10:57:35 AM
People frequently tell me that I am doing a good job in the church because the people all seem happy and satisfied. My usual response is that I don't think it is my job to make everybody happy. There are times when being a good pastor means that people get upset. Jesus was absolutely not concerned with making people happy in this instance in the temple. Maybe a beatitude that would go with his action in the temple is: "Blessed are the hell-raisers for theirs is the kingdom of God."
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/16/2003
Time: 9:43:24 AM
Was Jesus really being violent? I have always referred to this scene as righteous anger. I have been told that it is not always wise to be patient with people, even though anger is building up within me. Sometimes people need not to be overlooked, but confronted with their bad behavior. I think Jesus was confronting the Temple salesmen with their bad behavior. PH in OH
Date: 3/16/2003
Time: 11:26:33 AM
Ahhhh, the God's we worship! The Decalogue is given to us and yet we turn the temple (church, body of Christ, ourselves) into golden calves to be celebrated and worshipped for their own sake. Do we have any idea what we are doing, do we truly know who it is we worship, do we have any idea what God's house is all about?
tom in ga
Date: 3/16/2003
Time: 1:17:33 PM
Here's a possible idea to use. In our sermon group we talked about Matt Redman's song, "The Heart of Worship." Thinking especially of the words, "Coming back to the heart of worship - it's all about you, it's all about you..." PH in OH
Date: 3/16/2003
Time: 4:50:03 PM
It seems to me that at least one question is , why was Jesus so mad? The custom of exchanging roman coin to Temple money was long standing; people came from many places, so having animals at the Temple was a needed accommodation. Jesus' own mother and father may have used the sellers of animals when they offered their sacrifice on his behalf. It is too simple to say that these parts of the Temple trade had become idols and evil. Jesus is speaking to a far deeper evil. The evil that disguises itself as a good--the Temple itself and what it stood for had become, it seems, a surpasing evil. The Temple had become more important that the people for whom it was created. Sounds just like much of Christianity and the present day church and its leaders, huh? Perry
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 12:05:48 AM
I was wondering whther this incident links back to the 3rd of the ten commandments: , "Do not use my name for evil purposes" (as the Good News version has it). It's the sin of blasphemy and maybe this is an opportunity to point out what blasphemy really is - we tend to trivialise it as "using the f... word" when in fact it's much more serious than that. Was Jesus mad because people were using God for their own ends?
Peter in England
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 5:44:48 AM
Friends, John offers us a series of signs in his testimony - signs about who Jesus is and more importantly, what he means to the world. The signs show his glory - right from the prologue onward. Look at ch. 2 - we have new wine at a wedding - the significance is deeper that the marvelous trick - that Christ's glory is manifest. Next we go to the present incident at the temple. Then in chap 3 we go to spiritual rebirth with Nicodemus - another sign. The temple cleansing is deeper than the chasing out of misguided, profit-making people. It is about replacing an old order in religion with a new one. In John, most scenes have two levels of meaning - one immediate and one much deeper, more eternal. When Jesus says "destroy the temple and in three days I will build it up" - he means replace the old phisical temple as the center of their religion with a new, spiritual center. He is not saying that traditions are bad - but that they will be made new, or re-made. This can't be readily seen by the witnesses, but as John says, it only becomes clear after the resurrection, when the risen Christ becomes the center and focus - the new temple. C.H. Dodd is a great help in getting into John and the parables.
For a sermon, I'm not sure where this takes me. I do not want to scold the faithful who love and take care of their church. But it does remind us of the center of our faith; that it is our worship of Christ that gives us the only reason to have a church (buiding or people) in the first place. Still early.... Jim in CT.
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 7:04:23 AM
I think Perry has hit the nail on the head. I probably shouldn't cloud the water by bringing in another gospel, but twice in Matthew (9:13 & 12:7)Jesus tells those who oppose him that they would do well to learn what "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" means. Jesus lived by and taught a different standard than that which was in place at the temple. He knew that the sacrificial system could not justify people before God. Only a change in heart can make people right with God. Jesus' actions here point to an understanding that goes over the heads of the people that he is dealing with. I offer this with some fear and trembling because I want to be faithful to this text and not abuse the text by bringing in Matthew.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 8:02:55 AM
Just wondering: Why does John put this temple cleansing incident early in his gospel, when Matthew and Mark place it immediately after Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem just days before his crucifixion?
Does this lend a deeper symbolic significance? I suspect it does (Jim in CT seems on the right track). But I'm wondering how this will preach?
Looking forward to the conversation this week.
MEL in NE
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 8:39:49 AM
Whoops, I forgot, that Luke, too mentions the temple cleansing right after the triumphal entry, although Luke's account is very short.
MEL in NE
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 9:10:03 AM
By Sunday our nation will probably be at war. Politcs aside, can this text be used to address that which will probably be on everybody's mind? Can we be responsible and not address what is happening from the pulpit? Despite Jesus' anger at the money changers, I can't see how this text can be used for any kind of justification for war. Any thoughts? Tom
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 9:41:26 AM
Tom, Your message jarred me into reality this morning. You are right, we can't ignor the world situation. Since, the Gospel reading for this week holds so much symbolism, perhaps there is a word for us in the midst of this crisis.
In a the Lectionary Preaching Workbook (Year B) put out by CSS Publishing, I found these words: "Once Jesus invades our lives, it's never business as usual. Jesus overturns the tables on conventional religion. He becomes angry when he observes how some humans corrupt the faith, using God for material gain rather than being used by God for their spiritual gain." (p. 124)
What about those who use religion to try to make their case for a "holy" war? I am saddened and frightened by our President's pro-war stance. He claims to be a man of faith (a United Methodist, even), but I wonder if he is listening to the voice of God or the voice of another?
I'm rambling, so I'll stop. Grace and Peace to all of you.
MEL in NE
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 9:57:34 AM
One of the things to remember about this episode (whether early in Jesus ministry as placed by John or late as placed by synoptics) is that the folks who were in the temple courtyard changing Roman coin to Israelite currency or selling sacrificial animals to supplicants from far away were not doing this free of charge. The money changers did as money changers (banks and foreign currency exchanges) do now -- they "skimmed" percentage (frequently a pretty hefty one)so that the propheted handsomely from the transaction. Similarly, the sacrificial animals were sold at a premium price.
Remember a few weeks ago (Jan. 19) when we had the lesson in which the Lord God took the priesthood from Eli and his sons at shrine at Shiloh and gave it over to Samuel. God did so (at least in part) because the family of Eli had begun to treat the ministry of the Lord as a family business for their personal gain. Here in the Temple, Jesus finds the money changers and the sellers of animals doing the same thing -- they are debasing the peoples' religion and spirituality by making the temple into a marketplace for personal profit. (John's version here uses just that term -- the synoptics are more colorful -- "a den of robbers".)
So I suspect that it isn't simply the practice of changing money or selling sacrificial animals that gets Jesus' ire ... he probably would have supported the non-use of Roman currency in the Temple and would have thought it fine to have some way for supplicants for afar to offer the proper sacrificies. It is the unwarranted prophet derived from the activity that upsets him.
Some Monday morning thoughts.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 10:06:58 AM
Sort of along the same lines I was working with above, Bill Loader in his "first thoughts" on this gospel lesson says, " it is likely that Jesus objected to what the temple had come to represent: power and exploitation. The otherwise innocent structures of exchange and sale were part of a system which he and many others of the day (such as those who wrote many of the Dead Sea Scrolls) saw as corrupt and fit only for destruction. He is no more to be seen as opposing the temple in itself than Jeremiah. It is likely than that his action expressed both disapproval of what the temple had become and signified also what God’s response would be: judgement." (His entire essay is at http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/MkLent3.htm)
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 12:28:49 PM
I believe Jesus was also angry because the location of this selling was actually in the outer court which was the place the gentiles could come to pray. "My house shall be a house of prayer for all peoples, but you have made it a den of robbers." The hubbub around the only place gentiles could pray disturbed Jesus too. IL pastor
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 6:40:39 PM
Eric in KS,
Freudian slip? "It is the unwarranted prophet derived from the activity that upsets him."
You did mean "profit," did you not? lol
Michelle
Date: 3/17/2003
Time: 7:52:47 PM
A little different approach . . . Since I am 46 years old, the amount of time the Temple had been under construction at the time of this reading, and since we can be the temple where God resides, I was particularly struck by Jesus's claim that he could rebuild the temple in three days. After all, it really has taken 46 years to make me who I am -- and in only three days, Jesus can remake me? He can -- if those three days are Good Friday, Black Saturday, and Easter morning. The integrity of his life, the absoluteness of his sacrifice and death, and the victory of his resurrection are three days that can rebuild anyone's life!
OLAS
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 6:26:02 AM
Michelle asked: "Freudian slip? 'It is the unwarranted prophet derived from the activity that upsets him.' You did mean 'profit,' did you not? lol"
Yep!
Eric in KS (shame-faced over that gaff and deeply into a couple of new-call discernment processes... perhaps soon to be no longer "in KS")
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 7:06:13 AM
Creature Wayne wondered if it's our job to make people happy. That struck home for me because some have suggested to me that I've been successful in my ministry here because people are happy again!
I think it's a bit of a two-edged sword. If people are happy, then they can focus on worship and things spiritual, whereas unhappiness tends to divide people over earthly things.
I would hope that their happiness (and mine) is centered on a good, loving relationship with our Lord, and not just that the books are in the black!
Blessings, Don in Ontario
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 10:48:47 AM
I,too, was struck by verse 2:21. Could it be that our bodies (lives?) can also become marketplaces instead of temples, leaving little room for God to dwell in us? I think that it may not have been the moneychanging and selling of sacrificial animals that were the problems, but the fact that they had become such "big business," leaving little room for the gentiles or much else. It is often that way for humanity. We take something that is essentially good (a glass of wine per day, e.g.)and let it run away with us, leaving no room for God in us, in the body of Christ, in the temple. Max in NC
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 11:36:56 AM
Tom asked about how this passage might be related to the pending war in Iraq. As other people have noted, Jesus seems to be objecting to the "greed" of those who had long since forgotten that selling animals and changing money at the temple was a contribution to the spiritual needs of those coming to the temple and turned it into a highly profitable and perhaps even abusive business. What is the goal of greed. To me the answer is power, which makes this gospel passage about the use and abuse of power. Is that not the issue at the centre of the pending war? Is that not the issue at the centre of any war? No pointing fingers, no saying yes or no, just trying to help find a thread to link the very real gospel of Jesus to the very real events in our world today.
KN in Ln
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 12:14:22 PM
TO MEL in NE and Jim in CT, First, in response to MEL's quiry about why John puts this pericope at the first of the Gospel, at least three things are answered by this Gospel (just as they are in the others) who is Jesus? From where does his authority come? And, what is required to be a disciple? Moreover, in John's Gospel, in contrast to the synoptics' low-Christology, we see in John a high Christology of salvation. As Jim in CT rightly suggests, John's Gospel is packed with multiple meanings and symbolism. Each word used by John has its own distinct meaning (Raymond E. Brown's work is valuable here). John's depicting this event at the first of the Gospel signifies that only through Jesus does one truly worship God and it is only through Jesus that one knows eternal life. It is primarily from the Johannine theology/Christology/pneumatology that we recieve the Nicean Creed's emphasis of "begotten, not made, of one being with the Father; through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate...and became truly human" and Jesus as Son Of God in the Trinitarian sense. Reimaging the question of who is Jesus, is, therefore, primary for the Johannine school, which may mean that the Johannine school is offering this gospel as an apologetic for its widely diverse community. As for Jesus' anger (Jim in CT offers good insight as to the symbolism in John), it is at least on two levels: one being that God's good news brought into the Jewish community through the Temple and sacrifices had been corrupted--that which God had ordained as a power to bring good was being used to do evil; two, (as I offered before) the Johannine community was very diverse in its makeup (pharisaic Jews, Samaritans, hellenistic Jews, and Gentiles) and therefore, John's depiction of Jesus' anger was a declarative action which said to the Johannine community that his anger was for them, against all that opposed and oppressed them. Further, when Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well in Chapter 4 and said, "But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him" (Jn 4.23). This statement, again, reiterated the symbolism of his actions at the Temple. Interestingly, it is this woman that first speaks of Jesus being the Messiah.
Lastly, to the question of whether this text will preach in these perilous times, and in what way? For me, Jesus' anger and Jesus' sadness must also be our own when our eyes are opened to the insidiousness of evil in institutions. How is the Good News served by the United States attacking Iraq? How is our power in the United States, the lone Super Power in the world, being used to bring blessing to the world, to our own citizens (Gen 12.1-3)? We must remember that whatever peace we seek to impose on Iraq is not the peace of Shalom. Was not Jesus' righteous anger at the Temple because of its misuse of power? Here, the Temple, is an instrument ordained by God to bring blessing and peace to God's people, and instead, it was turned to serve the idols of power and economic greed. Is this not parallel to what we are seeing perpetrated by the US? God has not ordained the US, however we can be an instrument of peace. But to do so, we must hear the words of Jesus, whether in the gospel of John, "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another..." (Jn 13.34a) or in the synoptics where Jesus' words of the Great Commandment guide us to ways of peace, God's Shalom. If our times do not call for this message in preaching, then when?
Okay, I'll stop. Sorry for the diatribe. Perry
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 12:22:05 PM
In the area of Ohio I live in there seems to be a great conservative influence. There is a lot of talk about Davidic worship style and "praise" worship, many times having 1/2 hour or more of "praise" music." It is a question in my mind if we are truly trying to worship God or please ourselves. I have been to praise style worship to visit and it creates a perhaps "superficial" religious high.
It does seem a good idea for us to think about what things we do crowd into our lives that prevent us from worshipping God as we should. PH in OH
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 12:22:27 PM
I thought this temple episode was recorded in all the gospels. Why are we jumping to John when Mark also has an account of Jesus driving those folks out of the temple?
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 12:45:12 PM
Hmmm.... money laundering in a way .... Yesterday I went to deliver an order of Girl Scout cookies to someone at a local mall. I had one of the two cases left in my trunk and was hoping to find some kind of "market" for them. As we pulled up, there was a carnival. Since it was rainy, there weren't any people riding the rides so I marketed the carnies. The carnies who had money bought a box and I played a guy's game for a box (I lost, big surprise). I couldn't help but think it was ironic dragging my girls to the carnival and playing a game just so I wouldn't be stuck with all those orphan boxes this year. The ethics of "it's for a good cause" intrigued me. I teach my kids not to play those games, but I was trying to make a sale and was willing to sacrifice the cost of one box to pique interest. Just like I oppose the lottery but don't oppose raffles. I don't participate in raffles even "for a good cause" but I don't oppose them, either. I also was left a lottery ticket for a tip when I waited tables. Yes, it won $2, and yes, I bought some gas with it. But it was for a good cause - mine.
Justification for this war is that it's for a good cause, too. Time to be extra-clear on what we believe. Unfortunately, I see more than a couple sides to the issue. No choice but to go back to the Bible and it says, "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Not "thou shalt not kill except for a good cause." I don't know where it says "thou shalt not let others kill."
At some point we must have enough respect for the temple, our Lord, to obey him and trust completely. To bow down to no one before him - not even for a good cause.
Sally in GA
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 1:15:11 PM
I have noticed that on many occasions in John's gospel Jesus will answer a direct question in a cryptic way rather than giving a clear, direct answer. He does this with Nicodemus, the Samaritan woman at the well, and he also gives a cryptic answer here in v. 19 in response to the "Jews." When asked a tangible and concrete question, Jesus will give an answer that is abstract and spiritual. I find his answers to be frustrating and I am a believer who has read the first chapter of John, so I know something of what is going on. Nicodemus, the Samaritan woman, and the Jews have not had the advantage of reading Ch. 1, so how could they be anything but frustrated by Jesus' answers and explanations?
John's explanation for Jesus' behavior is in v.17: "Zeal for your house will consume me." His zeal for the temple was Jesus' motivation for driving the merchants and moneychangers out. However, Jesus uses this temple incident as a springboard for speaking of his body as a temple and to presage his resurrection.
My struggle is that I'm not sure I like John's Jesus as much as I like Jesus in the synoptics. (That was hard to confess and I hope it isn't an unpardonable sin!) I deal better with things that are tangible and concrete than with those that are abstract.
Judging from v. 22 the disciples did not understand and believe until after the resurrection. It was in retrospect that these events and sayings had their full impact on them.
How does this apply to the 3rd Sunday in Lent in the year of our Lord 2003? As the church we have arrived in Jerusalem and have witnessed Jesus' actions in the temple. We have the knowledge of Ch. 1, we hear the questions of the Jews and we hear the responses of Jesus and John. We also have the advantage of a post-Easter perspective. Now if I just had something tangible and concrete to preach on Sunday!
I will mention the war from the pulpit, but I will do it in prayer and not necessarily in the sermon.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 4:10:10 PM
PH in OH said, "In the area of Ohio I live in there seems to be a great conservative influence. There is a lot of talk about Davidic worship style and 'praise' worship, many times having 1/2 hour or more of 'praise music.' It is a question in my mind if we are truly trying to worship God or please ourselves. I have been to praise style worship to visit and it creates a perhaps 'superficial' religious high."
As a local colleague of mine once commented, most "praise" music has the theological depth of a teacup saucer! And a good deal of it is more about us than about God, so who exactly are we praising.... my "favorite" praise worship experience involved a 15-minute repitition of the chorus: "I just want to praise you." I kept thinking, "Then why don't we stop singing this and DO IT?"
Anyway, PH ... I'd like to know where in OH you are and, if you are near an area where I am "job hunting," to ask you a couple of questions. Please drop me a private e-mail at figtree@consulting.thefunstons.com
Thanks, Eric (still) in KS
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 4:22:15 PM
Crossan and Reed in their book "Excavating Jesus" say this "cleansing of the Temple" incident might have been the single event of the week that got Jesus crucified. (Otherwise, he may have been crucified for the longer-term message he was and represented). It must have really been a challenge to those exploiting through the temple. I don't know how he would have gotten away with it. How did the men on the spot, let him turn too many tables over or drive too many animals out? The text doesn't say he was angry. But he must have been a man on a mission. Brent in Pincher
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 4:51:23 PM
I like the concept: "Relationships without Exploitation." The Jews were given the commandments so they could create a new society without expoitation. Their's was to be an experiment of a just society.
Jesus took exception to exploitation in the temple.
Where is there exploitation in the world today?
At the heart of the Bible is a message that God wants people to have relationships without exploitation - relationships that are just and compassionate. Brent in Pincher
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 6:01:09 PM
The dove was being used for economic exploitation. This beautiful symbol of peace was being sold out by the merchants claiming God on their side. The economic realities of this war are that stock markets rose when it was declared! The man with the whip may have been angry but the deepest emotion was sadness at the distortion of our relationship with God. And Christ weeps again. Petereo.
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 6:41:36 PM
Well, well. It seems we preachers cannot stay out of politics. It is obvious this site is taken up by people who believe the worst of the US and the administration while failing to get the point of getting a tyrant dictators hand off the controls of literal tons of bio chemical weapons. Its amazing that when the former administration went to war it did so without consultation to the UN, without the support of congress and questionable legal grounds and none of these protests were noted.
I frankly cannot stand it any longer this week. I'm bugging out of this conversation for the benefit of everyone. If I start expressing my beliefs I will be duly run into the ground and called everything but a Christian.
I hate war but I see God again presiding over yet another chapter in history where He (or She or It) has used one nation against another as the story of salvation plays itself out. Our role according to Romans is subjection and prayer but few are pulling for that view here. Its easy to second guess a president or anyone else. It is easy to be proud and say "I would have done it another way" but that is the Absolom Syndrome and it isn't a good thing.
There are a lot of good ideas put forth on this site about the scripture this week. Ironic that the passage is about Jesus committing an act of aggression for a greater good. But don't use that idea even if it is Biblical. It might upset some Christians.
I'll be checking in next week. Maybe the politics will one day be at a minimum.
Grace and peace, Mike in NC
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 7:49:31 PM
If I felt compelled to relate THIS text to war, I could do little better than to compare the cleansing of the temple of those who abused their authority while others stood by saying "Who said you could do that?" to today's parallels. But if I did, I would probably be stretching the text in ways it wasn't meant to be stretched. If I wrapped the text around the opposite viewpoint, I would be stretching it just as far.
If I felt compelled to preach on war, I would use a different text altogether.
However, I do plan to use this text, and believe the message is to be distilled somehow from this passage, from Hebrews 9&10 (The law as a shadow of the good things to come...) and from 1 Cor. 3:16 (Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple?)
The temple, as the earthly representation of The Real Thing, was being polluted through abuse - though not so clear here as in the synoptics - or simply by the encroachment of business and day to day affairs.
Jesus Christ would not allow the temple, as a representation of himself, to be so polluted, whether by religious extortion or by business or indifference.
Our bodies, as God's temples in which God's spirit dwells, likewise have been polluted. Perhaps with greed and overt sin. Perhaps through apathy. Perhaps 'busyness' and day to day life have encroached on the sacredness of our existance.
And OLAS, I love your connection between the 46 years and the three days of Good Friday, Black Saturday and Resurrection Sunday. There's a message for those whose lives have been under construction for years but never been sanctified. There's also a message for those whose temples, though once sanctified, no longer represent true pictures of Christ and need cleansing.
The Christ who cleansed the temple because it no longer represented a true picture of him is the same Christ to whom we must go to be cleansed so that we can represent a true picture of him.
And though not preaching on war, we have been and will be praying about the war, for the safety of military and civilians alike, and that leaders of all nations would seek and be granted God's wisdom in bringing us closer to peace.
Ed in GA
Date: 3/18/2003
Time: 10:34:19 PM
This is my first visit to this page. I am struck with this scripture of Jesus entering and clearing out the Temple on the weekend of the 23 anniversary of Salvadoran soldiers entering a sanctuary with weapons and killing Oscar Romero. Add to this the entering of the United States into a war with Iraq and the challenge to the Church that preaches peace. What a unique opportunity to reflect on God's call in light of Jesus' action, Oscar Romero's martyrdom and our own response to the war in Iraq. bob - PA
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 6:31:15 AM
It is Lent. A main symbol of Lent is the cross. How can we as preachers avoid talking about politics? Sorry Mike in NC that you are making your strong comments and then opting out of the conversation. I don't think it is fair. Brent in Pincher
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 7:15:22 AM
I've been out of the loop for a couple of Sundays but the thought that keeps occuring to me is a question for the church. I serve two small churches in a rural area ans the drought along with everything else seems to be wieghing on the mind. The first and most pointed thing is lack of money and it filters into the church. We can't do anything great because we do not have the money. Is this a message that we should do ministry and leave the money to God? it now seems irrelevant to the discussion but I still wonder if it was about the money or the attitude. WaynO in NE
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 8:01:02 AM
Here in eastern NC - basically one giant military installation with Camp Lejeune and Cherry Point Marine bases, Fort Bragg and Seymour Johnson AFB - I am struggling with preaching to a congregation many of whom have been deployed to the War, and to those of their families left behind here to wait and worry. Some of them object to the war, but are called to serve and do so. It is hard to be prophetic in such a situation. Any thoughts? LT in NC
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 9:01:29 AM
"Zeal for God's House" - I no more had announced this title and the scripture lesson than the person responsible for selecting hymns called and engaged me in a lengthy discussion over the number of sales that are conducted at our church. Most of them are youth and children's sales. I did not say this but if we were paying enough taxes to fund our schools and budgeting enough in our church's budget for children's and youth ministries, the need for such sales would disappear. Of course, that would mean that people would have to tithe income and pay more taxes. The interesting factor in this account is how zeal gets translated into action that comes across as anger on Jesus' part. Can Christian get angry and sin not as Paul suggested to the Ephesians? One cannot deny the human emotion of anger. It is more a matter of channeling it and using it for a productive end. What has hurt my ministry has been the expression of anger over minor things and not expressing anger over major issues. We need wisdom and the gift of discernment to respond appropriately to the situations and circumstance we face in this life. TN Mack
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 9:11:38 AM
We've had a rough winter here in New England. Lots of snow, below-freezing temperatures for months, and on Monday, a miracle happened. The temperature rose to above 50 degrees, the sun shown, the snow melted, and the crocus emerged. I never in all my life have been so happy to see those purple crocus. I think this is how I'm starting my sermon this week.
I'm struck, with all your insights and help, by the contrast between the orderliness of God shown in the psalm and the OT reading, and the disorderlyness of the Gospel. I feel we're living in an atmosphere of this reading from John - everything's been turned upside-down, everyone's tense and anxious, and everyone's wondering what will happen next. But the orderliness of God - the rules by which we shall live, the assurance of the psalmist that God is in charge, and the promise of Spring - is where I've found my comfort this week. This isn't a comfortable Gospel reading. It isn't one we would turn to in times of conflict and anxiety. Speaking for myself, Jesus doesn't offer me any comfort in this story. But the changelessness of God is a constant consolation, and being surrounded by the beauty of Spring is another.
Julie in MA
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 10:31:08 AM
As we speak of Jesus' aggression in this story, it has always struck me that he used the makeshift whip to move the animals out(and generally cattle and sheep that are used to being moved by humans don't need much more than the sound of a whip, a whistle or a clap of the hands to get them moving.)
Jesus turned over the tables of the money-changers.
The point is that Jesus did not "lay a hand (or whip)on" the moneychangers. He chased out the animals and overturned the tables. His only physical violence was toward the tables. (Again violence is usually conterproductive in moving animals, and Jesus was wise.) Max in NC
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 10:59:11 AM
Some mid-week thoughts here, have reading all the others so far. (This may get lengthy, but go with it here!)
As many have pointed out, John's gospel (in contrast to the synoptics) invites and even requires us to ask for the "deeper message" beyond the surface one--and so it is here.
For starters, Jesus' actions should stun and amaze us as they did those on that day--EVERYBODY, Jesus' disciples included was riveted, disturbed, even dismayed and flabbergasted at Jesus. That has to do with the "sign" that someone mentioned, which is John's major issue. And that's where we should start, I think--letting ourselves be amazed and even annoyed at Jesus here, not so much trying to figure him out as to observe him and let his authority sink in.
But then we can begin to inquire into the "deeper" word. We must push beyond merely believing that Jesus was showing that the "old, useless religion of the Jews" was being done away with so a "new and improved Christian faith" could take its place (Why wouldn't God have started with Christianity in the first place, rather than wasting so much time on Judaism in that case?). And we must push beyond Jesus only taking exception to the sacrifice-selling and money-changing operations (For surely Jesus understood how times had changed and that many people did not raise livestock in those days, and even if they did there were not many who could raise enough to produce the "perfect" animals required for the sacrifices; and surely Jesus also would have objected to the use of Roman coinage with Caesar's likeness used as Temple currency). And beyond all that, we must push beyond seeing Jesus making an issue of the profiteering (Sure, some of it may have been unfair, but some profit was required in order for there to be such a livelihood possible, to meet expenses and provide for the merchants' families, etc.) No, there is a deeper issue yet.
Perhaps it was in the whole spirit of the enterprise. Perhaps the ways they looked at and talked to each other, or didn't look at and didn't talk to each other that set Jesus off. For some reason, Jesus has had enough at this point. "Nobody is getting it," he may have said. "It's time to make a point and make it stick."
Jesus' righteous rampage through the Temple court on a busy day serves as a wake-up call to people of faith everywhere. Have we missed the point? Or have we lost the point, more to the point? Have we forgotten that it's all about serving God and serving others? Have we lost our "zeal for God's house" or, worse yet, perhaps, confused our own zeal with God's purposes? We need to hear again the words of the prophet Micah (6:8): "O people, the Lord has already told you . . . what he requires: . . . to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."
We must own the truth that Jesus has the right to "clear house"--even more than he had then, being now raised from death, "King of kings and Lord of lords." He has the authority to purge us of impure motives and dishonest desires.
After all this examination, we need to talk about what "Temple" is like for us these days--where are the recognized "holy places" in our lives?
Yes, the CHURCH (both as a physical place and a spiritual image) is chief among our "Temples." But there are others, too: in our culture, "HOME AND FAMILY" are also considered "places of the sacred." And, as we have heard so often lately, our national identity has been tied up with language of God's guidance and providence throughout its history--"God Bless America" and just about every other patriotic song indicates this, in addition to the "Pledge of Allegiance" and our coinage--so,in a real sense, "NATION" is also a "Temple." And, of course, our very LIVES, physically and spirtually, are "Temples."
What would Jesus clear out of our Temples? What would raise his hair? What would he overturn or throw out? What is going on in our Temples that might "set him off"?
And I don't know that this point that we need to answer such questions for people, as much as we need to raise the questions and then invited the Holy Spirit to convict and inspire.
Still working...
TK in OK
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 11:06:19 AM
It just occured to me that this reading can be a great opportunity for a "dialogue" or "Q&A" sermon.
Ask people to consider the story and feedback their impressions. What do they think of Jesus here? What would they have thought/felt/did if they had been there?
Then, lead into a conversation about why Jesus might have taken on this way? What might have raised his ire, set him off, etc.?
Challenge various ideas (as with the major arguments in my previous post). Then, invite people to deepen their reflections as to the "deeper meaning" Jesus was revealing.
Finally, ask about what sorts of "Temples" there are in our lives and invite people to consider just what Jesus might take exception to and what he might desire to change.
A time of confession/assurance could follow.
TK in OK
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 11:58:50 AM
Hi all,
I'm truly sorry that Mike in NC was upset by some of us questioning the validity of this war. But I hope that each of us continues asking questions as to the 'whys' and 'hows'. I know that many good Christians and other people of faith find themselves in different positions. The issues are very complex and go back generations. It is OK to ask questions. We shouldn't squealch the conversation and just blindly follow our country's leaders, especially when so much is at stake. Some may claim that it doesn't matter what we say at this point, that we aren't going to make a difference; but I believe the questions are valid. No matter where we stand, the conversation is part of our making sense of it all and becomes part of our conversation with God. We know our parishioners are going to be talking about it.
I don't know yet how I will address the issue on Sunday morning, but to ignore it doesn't seem an option. Am I going to come out and blast President Bush from the pulpit? Of course not. (To be honest, there is a part of me that wishes I could just trust and believe that he's doing the right thing. It would be simpler.) But what ever I say, it will be less out of a sense of patriotism and more out of a sense of concern for all of God's people.
I pray that all our sevice men and women are kept safe. I also pray for the Iraqi people. I pray that in the aftermath of this war, there will be true healing.
And now I'll shut up and go away. I apologize if my comments are a misuse of this forum. Thank you to all for the valuable comments concerning the lectionary!
Grace and Peace,
MEL in NE
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 1:51:21 PM
Being a mal-content; I opted to switch to the Lukan version (Lk 19:41-48) of this story and include the part where jesus weeps over the city of jerusalem (cornerstone of peace). His comment at that point reveals His anguish of knowing what is necessary for peace, and realizing that we do not!
This passage also contains the demand that the temple be a "House of Prayer." The overturning of the tables is a cleansing act to end the greedy self-interest present in the temple. Whether we sell things or not, that self-interest creeps into the church, in committes, in programs and in who serves in what capacity. Shifting the focus prayer is essential now!
There is a connection between this Lukan passage and the temple Sermon in Jeremiah 7:1-15, as the Temple was turned into a hideout for thieves. This is a powerful sermon that almost cost Jeremiah his life (See Jer 26).
The Temples we serve need to be houses of prayer now as much as ever before.
A W-G rocky coast Me.
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 2:26:31 PM
This is the first time I have contributed to this page, and I strongly feel that I am led by the spirit to do so.
To not address this war at some level would not only be irresponsible, but competely ignorant on our part as preachers. The lens' through which we (humans) read scripture are immediately affected by our external environment. Therefore, I feel it is important to think about how this text might be read/heard by people in light of our current global situation. I definitely have my own political views, but as a pastor/preacher my loyalty first lies with God. For such loyalty to be expressed, I must be true to God's word in the scripture, but simultaneously address people's current life situations. What I do not want is someone to read this text and justify this war by equating Jesus to the US, and Saddam to the money-changers... I would never be so crass or ego-centered in my sermon, but it is in the back of my head as I prepare. I apologize for such a lengthy contribution, but I felt compelled...
mo
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 6:56:43 PM
In the sermon listed by Rev. Tom Hall, he makes a reference to Josephus which I am attempting to verify.
"Here’s an interesting aside that may help us to understand this part of the story. Josephus describes an ongoing feud between the Sanhedrin and the Jewish high priest, Caiaphas that had happened prior to this spring day. Apparently, Caiaphas was peeved at the Sanhedrin and had forced them from their office space in the Temple area. In retaliation, the Sanhedrin invited merchants to sell animals near them outside the Temple area. Not to be out-retaliated, Caiaphas had allowed merchants to sell their animals and exchange money right inside the Temple precinct. So amidst the barnyard smells of dirty pens and restless animals, within the sound of clinking coins-secular money being exchanged for kosher coinage-Jesus entered on this spring day in Passover."
This really puts things into perspective, but alas, I just can't seem to find it in my copy of Josephus' Complete Works. I'm sure it's here, but I'm having trouble locating it.
Can anyone out there in cyberland help track this down?
ERS in SD
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 7:11:33 PM
First, I would dare guess that many of us share something of the same feelings about war. We question its validity, as MEL in NC says. I, too, must wonder why Mr. President is acting as he is. But our questions re: war, its motives, etc., do not stop us from praying for and supporting the military, the nation, and our government, regardless of whether we think this thing is right or worng. We are no less patriotic than the next person. That being said, I turn to the text at hand.
I think it is a stretch to preach on the war based solely on this text, unless we were to do as an earlier post suggested. (Sorry I can't find it now.) Looking at the text, has anyone else seen that Jesus has set Worship on its ear? What Jesus has done in this story is destroy the preparations for worship as the 1st C. Jews understood it. R.E. Brown suggests that what Jesus is doing is drawing attention to the intention and/or focus of worship. True worship is not about things (sacrifices and coins), but about Jesus.
What would we do if someone came into our church parlors on Sunday and thoroughly disrupted our preparations?
Steve in NC
PS to LT in NC -- I grew up in Fayetteville. My heart bleeds for you. My father is pastor of a small congregation in that area and must face this same issue. We are "lucky" in my part of the sate. Only a few NG Units are called up (210th and 211th). Good luck. Prayers for peace, protection and for God's wisdom are yours from me, and others as well.
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 7:26:41 PM
To ignore the war in our preaching would be like not talking about the elephant in the room. For the last couple of months, I have felt like I am walking on egg shells. I feel very strongly that this war is neither just nor necessary nor in accordance with anything I see in Jesus' example. But my references to the war in my sermons have been parenthetical at best. And some Sundays I feel frustrated and even cowardly. Some of you have spoken with a great deal of passion on this issue in this forum. But I preach in Texas...my parishioners have gun racks in their pickups, you know? To say from the pulpit that I disagree with President Bush would be divisive and inflamatory, to say the least. Our congregation has recently gone through a major conflict over another political/social issue. We are healing, those of us who are left. I do not want to cause yet more division, so I walk a tight rope. I preach the cross, I preach peace, I preach Christ's model for us, but I do not preach anti-Bush, anti-anyone stuff. We pray for the President and the troops, but we also pray for Saddam and the Iraquis. And now I just pray it is over soon and the lessons learned are not too disastrous. Sorry for the length. I think I just needed to vent. I also want to thank you all who have given me so much help and fodder for sermons. I reference this site in my sermons alot. churchlady
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 8:52:02 PM
Some thoughts that come to mind at nearly midnight on Weds. (for what they are worth!):
+ Jesus' approach seems often to be one of afflicting the comfortable (those passive in their dishonesty greed -- a message for us at tax-time?)... and comforting the afflicted (I wonder what the folks who were being "robbed" in the Temple thought of this One who was chasing out the robbers.)
+ Jesus' "zeal for God's house" vs. our lack of zeal -- I'm recalling Rev. 3:16 "Because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth!"
+ We're a nation in crisis. I think of what Will Willimon wrote after 9/11: "During a time of trauma we all become theologians." What will our theology be?
Blessings on you all (esp. Eric in the discernment process), Lanni in GA (soon to be in the Hague)
Date: 3/19/2003
Time: 9:21:25 PM
Turning tables...
I'm frustrated by those that use this passage to "ordain" our actions in Iraq. They say, "Jesus didn't say, lets see, what to do, what to do... let's wait 12 years and I'll get back to you... he ACTED!"
Still others at our "TEXT STUDY" made the point that the people who came to Jerusalem had come great distances and came to the temple to make sacrifices, had looked around for "sheep, goats, doves" and couldn't find any on the street. The courtyard where the "money changers" were in was a natural gathering place for those not welcome in the inner "sanctum"... in those days it was women and those not yet holy enough to enter the holy of holies.
Jesus missed... ok, you've all heard those sermons where the preacher misses several opportunities to END a sermon... having said that, I'll continue... ;?)
Jesus missed the opportunity to use the teaching moment to say, "you've heard that it was said... but I say... you no longer need these animal sacrifices".
Instead, Jesus "had a bad day" and mixed things up without the teaching moment that was there! He's luckier than we are. Now, someone would video tape such an outburst if WE did something like that and they'd email our Bishop, DS, or Presiding Elder (A new thing in the Dakotas) we'd be kicked out of our churches before we "got home"!
I'm guessing this was not the ONLY time he wished he acted differently. Hey, if he was human... this was not an isolated case!
Enough rambling for tonight...
Praying for peace in the darkness of the world... but on the horizon I see a star of hope,
pupitt in ND
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 7:13:23 AM
Everybody,
Does nobody see a call to defend in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill"? Are we to stand by in the face of injustice and do nothing? Granted, there may be other ways to combat injustice, but I don't believe we can faithfully preach that all killing completely subverts the will of God.
The wars under Joshua, and Saul, and David, all occurred after the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Focusing on this commandment in such an "all or nothing" way discredits so much of the Biblical history of Israel that I don't believe we can be faithful to scripture if we do so.
In no way do I wish to claim this war is God's action of justice, we are too close to the events to see clearly today. I believe we should continue to pray for God's will to be done, trusting that it shall be done, despite what we do to assist or to thwart that will. Pray for God's inspiration and guidance in Jesus' name.
Michelle
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 7:26:41 AM
I wanted to comment on the words about praise music. I don't want to criticize all of it, but I often tell people that the "theology" of much of it is: Aren't we such good Christians because we love the Lord. Just what you said, it is about us and not God. the great tradition of Christian hymnody tells the story of the Gospel. And their are contemporary writers who do the same. Check out dakotaroadmusic.com, my favorite Lutheran group. the message is Christ centered like all worship should be. mspastor in RI
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 7:43:44 AM
I'm struck by last week's reading from Genesis and the emphasis on the number of nations that will come from Abram. When you consider the parties involved in the current conflict, you realize that it's the children of Abram involved in this conflict, however, the Christian element that feels compelled to be involved are "children of Abram" by faith-the others are by blood.
Logically taken to the conclusion, the the war is directed at a people who are "blood-kin" of Jesus through Abram. The blood that is spilled is that of Jesus' human relatives.
The first casuality of the war is the ability of people of the church to discuss it. Bush has invoked God and God's liberty (which mean's God shares the responsibility for blood shed) and any who voice opposition are demonized with again Bush's quote "those who are not for us are against us." (This is also a perversion of what Jesus said.)
We all stand under the severe judgement of the cross and we all stand under the depth of of mercy of the cross. The cross is for ALL peoples, ALL peoples.
I think the Scriptual verse that speaks to the coming days is, "...and Jesus wept."
Pr. del in IA
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 9:08:41 AM
Thank-you to Julia in MA for preaching to me.
In light of the war and our many opinions about it, I think I am going with the consistency of God's Holy presence also. Spring has just begun here in NC.(Lot's of beautiful visiuals to play with here) Dispite flooding (Floyd)in 99 and drought in 02 and war in 03 God's creation is a reminder of God's consist and omnipresence.
I am considering the text from Ecclesiastes 3:
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven. a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. (NIV)
I think I will review the ups and downs of life, survivable if grounded on the promises of God.
Maybe do "Hymn of Promise". Also am considering using "Blessed Assurance" This IS my story this Is my song.
Many thoughts looking for orginization, . . . .
LB in NC
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 9:37:01 AM
It's Thursday and I'm not preaching on Sunday (it's hard to do that without a pulpit, though my kids tell me I do "preach" a lot elsewhere...). But I am contemplating these lessons.
This Gospel story is combined with the recitation of the "Big Ten" in Exodus and with the Psalm 19 which has in it two wonderful verses: first - verse 12 in which the Psalmist asks, "Who can tell how often he offends? cleanse me from my secret faults", and second - verse 14 which is often used by preachers to start their sermons, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." (The quotations are from the 1979 BCP version of the Psalter, by the way.)
In the gospel, Jesus is cleansing the temple of some very visible faults and some very unacceptable words and meditations, and while some of our congregants may somehow relate to the sins of the money changers and the sellers of sacrificial animals, I doubt many of them can. But in the midst of a world at war, we can all certainly relate to the Psalmist's lament that he is guilty of secret sins he is not even aware of and to his cry that God will find his innermost meditations acceptable.
How many of them (and us) I wonder, as much as we deplore the brutality and bloodshed of even the most surgically precise military action, as much as we would have preferred that diplomatic efforts and UN-sanctioned inspections had resolved the issues, as much as we may be on the opposite political pole from our president ... nonetheless are fascinated by the spectacle of modern warfare (watching it on T.V. as if it were a sporting event) and cheering (however quietly) for the coalition forces arrayed against Saddam Hussein and his regime. Are they (and we) guilty of the secret fault of supporting the killing of human beings in violation of one of the "Big Ten"? What, watching the war news, are the meditations of our hearts? And are we as willing to let Jesus enter there and drive those out with his braided cords as we are for him to cleanse the temple?
And what about those for whom the war, as terrible as it is and as awful as the risks being borne by our men and women in uniform are, is simply a minor distraction from their own problems and situations? This is my own secret fault. I feel I should be more vocally opposed to, and more interested in, what is happening.... but I am unemployed, having neither altar nor pulpit nor parish in which to practice the priestcraft to which I was/am called... I have no income with which to pay the several bills this family generates.... I am looking at the prospect of selling my home in order to move to another church and of doing so with no realization of equity at all and thus perhaps unable to re-buy wherever we end up.... And I have just been told that my wife will be likewise unemployed within the next thirty days!
I should be concerned about the war -- about innocent civilian casualties -- about the safety of American service members -- about the moral issues -- about the standing of our country in the international community .... and to a certain extent I am, but not all that much. It's too distant. What I'm concerned about are my own individual day-to-day issues, and I'll bet our parishioners are, too!
So how do you who will be preaching on Sunday address all of those for those of us sitting in the pews, keeping the big picture before us, but realizing that (unless we have family members or close friends actually in harm's way) it's not that big in our lives, but the mortgage and medical bills are?
Just some thoughts from the pew, which is where I am sitting these days....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 9:39:00 AM
A humorous ps....
As I typed verse 14 of the psalm above ... I actually typed (and went back and edited) ... "May the words of my mother ...."
Now is that Freudian or what?
My mother (of blessed memory) would have been tickled to think that I would pray that her words would be acceptable in God's sight!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 12:03:23 PM
I haven't seen any additional discussion over the posted sermon by Rev. Hall concerning the apparent feud between Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin. I still haven't been able to find anything in Josephus. However I find references to the Sanhedrin leaving the temple area and taking up residence in Hanuth--A place on the Temple Mount outside the hewn chamber where they had temporary residence. (the ‘Chamber of the sons of Hanan’)in Avodah Zarah 8b and Sanhedrin 41a within the Talmud. Moreover I found a reference to the cattle dealers in Shekalim 7.2 in the Mishna. Nothing however concerning this feud.
The Anchor Bible by Raymond Brown p.119 "John" talks about why the Sanhedrin was at Hanuth. He cites Epstein's interpretation that this was a "struggle between Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin" (ZNW, 1964). Now how did Epstein come to that conclusion?
I guess I'm interested in tracking this down because is says to me that, at least in John's gospel, that Jesus is about to let a religious turf battle harm the "people of God"--the eretz Israel.
This is a messaage that I think would preach well during Lent and in a time of conflict. Jesus doesn't say that Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin can't snipe at each other for "just reasons". But He does show us that such conflicts should not harm the innocents and keep them from worship and the service of God.
Still, I don't want to use something that I can't back up.
ERS-SD
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 12:03:38 PM
Eric in KS, Too bad you aren't preaching this week. Your reflections would "preach" I think. You dare ask the questions that cause me to pause and wonder about what is in my own heart. Thank you. May God see you and your family through to a new and rewarding ministry setting soon.
MEL in NE
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 12:11:17 PM
Opps,I thought I proof read my last submission, but as it now appears, I didn't proof it closely enough! I meant to write..."I'm interested in tracking this down because is says to me that, at least in John's gospel, that Jesus is NOT about to let a religious turf battle harm the "people of the LAND"--the eretz Israel.
ERS-SD
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 2:07:41 PM
Hi,
I have a question, but first the background. For several years I taught anger management courses to prison inmates. I often started with an example most inmates could identify with. I asked “What if someone sliced your stomach open; how would you feel about that person? What would be your emotional reaction?” This invariably led to considerable discussion about the difference between anger and action, and the problem with making assumptions. Especially when I further broadened the initial question to “What someone sliced your stomach open and that person was a doctor who saved your life?” Often the assumptions about the apparently aggressive behavior are not accurate. In fact, behavior that may appear harsh, such as surgery or, in some cases, use of tear gas by prison staff, can actually lead to good such as the improvement of individuals or the protection of victims.
My question is, “Was Jesus angry when he cleansed the temple?”
Leon<>< in NC
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 2:17:23 PM
Thanks to Pr. del in IA. who brought up the issue that those in the conflict are all children of Abraham. I discovered a wonderful prayer this week and include it for those who might find it helpful.
Prayer for Peace with Iraq Lord of hope and compassion, Friend of Abraham Who called our father in faith to journey to a new future, We remember before you the country of Iraq from which he was summoned Ancient land of the Middle East, realm of the two rivers, Birthplace of great cities and of civilization.
May we who name ourselves children of Abraham, Call to mind all the peoples of the Middle East who honour him as father. Those who guard and celebrate the Torah, Those for whom the Word has walked on earth and lived among us Those who follow their prophet, who listened for the word in the desert And shaped a community after what he heard.
Lord of reconciliation, God of the painful sacrifice uniting humankind We long for the day when you will provide for all nations of the earth your blessing of peace. But now when strife and war are at hand, help us to see in each other a family likeness, our inheritance from our one father Abraham. Keep hatred from the threshhold of our hearts, and preserve within us a generous spirit which recognizes in both foe and friend a common humanity. This we ask in the name of the one who came to offer us the costly gift of abundant life.
(In Arabic Abraham is often called "El Khalil" which means 'the Friend [of God]'. Ur and Haran, the cities from which, according to Genesis, Abraham was summond by God both lie within the territory of modern Iraq.) (Alan and Clare Amos) Iona Community - http://www.iona.org.uk/
Rev. Steph in MD
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 2:53:58 PM
Just because there is an elephant in the room doesn't mean you have to preach about it. I think Mike in NC makes some really good points. I'm praying about this war and writing about it in our weekly newsletter, but I have not considered preaching about it. Yet. Besides, those who want to preach against the war can surely find a better text for that sermon than this one. But then, we human beings do have a certain tendency to try to create God in our image rather than allowing God to create us in God's image.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 4:16:03 PM
If we have people with destructive behavior in our churches, do we just ignore the bad behavior or should we do something about it? I think Jesus saw people behaving badly and so he did something about it. PH in OH
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 4:32:35 PM
Thanks Mspastor in RI for your comments on praise music. Much of what passes for the supposed shallow theology of this genre is a critique of a caricature in the mind of the person offering the critique. One that has little basis in reality. Yes, there are some "Jesus is my girfriend" types of songs out there. But there is also a wonderful and growing body of music that not only reflects deep and faithful praise to the Lord, but is also singable and understandable by those doing the singing - even for those who didn't grow up in the church. As a pastor and musician I can tell you that it is our contemporary music service that feeds my soul. For another source for the best in contemporary music check out www.worshiptogether.com
BTW Mspastor congratulations and blessings on your new call.
Jeff in UpstateNY
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 5:10:29 PM
Creature Wayne said, "Besides, those who want to preach against the war can surely find a better text for that sermon than this one."
I certainly agree ... but why is "preaching about the war" equating with "preaching against" or "preaching for" the war? The war is a reality. It has to be addressed. One can preach "about" the war and the ways it impacts peoples lives without preaching "for" or "against" the politics that brought us into the war.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 6:40:29 PM
Where is Nailbender and the prophetic voice's? tinca
Date: 3/20/2003
Time: 7:24:30 PM
Good point, Eric. We don't preach politics... we can use politics as an example or application of Biblical truths, or to raise questions, but when it comes to politics, we need to be humble. We can't see the whole picture, only God can. It's OK to let our congregations know how we feel about the war, but it is presumptuous and dangerous to claim a political stance as God's will. Almost everyone has the war on their minds and needs to think about it. I think TK in OK is heading in the right direction by focusing on what it is we don't get (as the temple dealers didn't "get it").
Thank you all for all the thoughts this week (as usual).
DGinNYC My people are worried about terrorism, and are not enthusiastic about inflaming anti-American sentiments...
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 4:23:26 AM
I have been struggling with the connection between Jesus' actions in cleansing the temple and his response to the question of the Jews. Jesus said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." How did that answer "What sign can you show us for doing this?" The buying, selling, and money changing that were taking place in the temple were all being done to facilitate the ritual sacrifices in the temple; sacrifices that were inadequate; sacrifices that did not really make things right between God and God's people. One theme in John concerns who Jesus was, where he came from, and where he was going. Jesus is the only person in John's gospel who knows these things. These questions are asked several times in John, but Jesus alone has the answers. His response to the Jews points to his passion, death, and resurrection. Jesus will become the sacrifice that is adequate, the sacrifice that will make things right between God and God's people. His actions in clearing the temple disrupted a sacrificial system that had become a farce. His answer pointed to the ultimate sacrifice that would become the hinge on which human history turns.
Think about it; does anybody really believe that those people were selling animals that were without blemish. Wholesale operations like that would have been dealing with animals that were mass produced, like the blue, pink, and green baby chicks we used to get at Easter when I was a kid. Even if the animals were without blemish, the attitudes of the people were less than contrite when they stepped up to buy their divine forgiveness from a street vendor. Jesus was real with God and with people. He wanted real people to get real with God. Now I have something tangible and concrete to preach. Who knows; I might even relate it to this war.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 5:05:04 AM
Let us all remember that even in a system gone bad, like the sacrificial practices of the temple, the people who participated were all along the spectrum. Certainly some purchased their animals with true contrition and honesty. Also, as Creature Wayne suggests, some were merely buying forgiveness. Still others may have been participating in a ritual turned empty.
As we celebrate the sacraments, we can see the same actions. We have people who come to have their baby baptized, and then we don't see them again until Sunday School, if then. Other baptized regulary sit in the pews, but don't worship, and don't let their lives be affected. Still others worship, along with the "mere" pew-sitters. A fourth group disdains the worship gatherings because of the "hypocrits" they see there.
Why do people receive the sacrament of Holy Communion? Is it merely because everyone else does so? Is it an attempt to buy forgiveness? Is it with a sense of contrition? How do we know, and what difference should it make, and how do we facilitate the cleansing of the temples of all who gather (and those who refuse to gather) for worship in the name of Jesus Christ?
Michelle
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 5:29:23 AM
Don Richardson in "Eternity is in their Hearts" speaks of this episode. He states that the Lord's anger was kindled by the fact that this area of the temple was the court of the Gentiles. It had been designated for all Gentiles to have access to the word of God. With the money changers and merchants in this specific area of the temple a group of people were being denied the word of God. The same should be true today in our houses of worship. No one should be denied access to God.
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 7:34:33 AM
Perry writes, “Is this not parallel to what we are seeing perpetrated by the US? God has not ordained the US, however we can be an instrument of peace.”
I conclude, sadly, that some are forever destined to see our nation’s leaders as “perpetuating” some sort of ill upon Saint Saddam. Very soon, all will be made evident as to the evil harbored in this regime. I will hold my peace (and my lunch in) for now on that since it has no bearing on the text.
On the text…I recall an excellent book by Bishop Kennedy called “For Preachers and Other Sinners”. In it he has a story of the young man who desired to become a minister, to which one lady affirms, “Yes, he would make a fine minister, for he is a right harmless lad.” I believe one of the most devastating indictments on clergy today may be that they have become HARMLESS. Jesus, from the beginning of His earthly ministry to the ascension, was anything but harmless. It did not make Him a brute, or evil, or cruel. Nor was He harmful. He was determined, purposeful, and totally undistracted in His mission. Perhaps we can preach something along these lines for people who see their discipleship as a harmless pastime. ARMY CH E, Ft Belvoir, VA
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 7:54:10 AM
I think I am going in a different place than anyone I have read - and that is the interpretation that the moneychangers were gate keepers -
And their role was to hinder access to the holy And Jesus' anger was at the exploitation of his lambs who need to be fed
I thought I would explore the "gatekeepers" that continue today - those voices outside of us and within us that stop us from getting to the inner court.
Does this make sense? MC in OH
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 8:08:11 AM
Rev. Steph in MD,
Thank you for the prayer, we will be using it this weekend.
And thanks to Michelle for her thoughts, I struggle with Baptisms and Affirmations of Faith that appear to be empty rites of passages and I have been contemplating a change in our policy here. We need to take this Jesus a little more seriously.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 8:22:58 AM
"It is indeed true that you have a really good reason to go to war and to defend yourself, but that does not give you god's guarantee that you will will." Luther Works 46:123-125 Luther's teaching at the times of both the Peasant's War and whenthe Turks were threatening to attack.
PrTom in TX
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 9:27:39 AM
Pastor Tom in TX,
Thanks for that quote. How true that God gives no guarantee that we will "enjoy" an earthly victory in every battle in which we engage. The promise is that final victory in the resurrection IS ours, even if I might lose my life fighting in a war whose 'justness' is questioned.
Michelle
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 9:37:57 AM
My direction this week be on cleansing the temple, first noting that there is nothing in the text that talks about "cleansing!"
I will mention the care we give to buildings, and the environment, etc. I will move into the area of practices that happen within the building, the rituals, what gets in the way, what uplifts (and that these things are often different for different people). Wrap this portion up with the worship in God's presence that happens both here in the building, and wherever we people of Christ gather.
Then, I'll point out that when Jesus responded to the question of the sign, he spoke of a different temple, the one of his body, and the things we do that our bodies might be cleansed, physically, and (of course) spiritually. Finally, I hope to tie it all together, to lift up the gathering of God's people with the cleansing of the individuals...
I've got the plan, now to get it working!!!
Michelle
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 11:07:04 AM
"Shock and Awe"
How dare we use such a theme for the bombing in Bagdad after 9/11! Where is our humility as a nation that doesn't wait for the United Nations to decide? Why does a superpower have to flex its muscles to show the world who is boss! I am no dove, like you I pray for the ending of Saddam's reign of terror, but the fires from hell sweeping over the Iraqi people this afternoon is enough to make you wonder about what you believe, which banner under which you live your life: the flag or the cross.
Well enough of that! How hard it is for us to preach with Paul the "Crucified Christ," the Suffering Christ," the Christ of the suffering and the poor, the Christ in weakness, and darkness of death. How foolish we are to proclaim this Christ - our people want signs (the war), and all we have is an empty sign - death.
We alway need drama and magic and fundamentalist TV preachers to make us fall back on the floor in rapture. We really don't want this Jesus ... it is too demanding.
tom in ga
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 12:59:26 PM
For our Stewardship campaign in December on one of the Sundays the congregation filled in cards which completed the sentence: My dream for our church and its ministries as I look to 2003 and beyond include ...
This comes in the midst of a building remodel and expansion project. Here are three of the responses. The first is representative of many. The second is less representative. The third stands alone.
1. Building a wonderful addition.
2. Building the addition and realizing it's too small for the congregation!
3. That telling the story of Jesus is the main goal not the building.
It seems to me that in the "cleansing" of the temple Jesus is with the author of number 3. What is the mission of the church? It is not to build up the building it is to make disciples for Jesus Christ (UMC mission statement). Jesus sees that the leaders of the temple have lost their vision for what is important and he reacts to that by rubbing the sleep from out of their eyes.
What is our purpose as preachers? What is our mission as preachers? I think we must answer that question as we approach this text in the midst of war.
Peace, Mark in WI
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 1:14:18 PM
I received this email and thought everyone might want to include it in their worship. Even if you are not United Methodist I think is is true of all Christian Churches.
JS in TX
The following statement comes from the Executive Committee of the Council of Bishops, and, at their request, is being forwarded to each of our local churches to be read in worship this Sunday. If you choose to print it, the Council requests that the format of the letter remain intact.
Carolyn E. Stephens Director of Communications Central Texas Conference
IRAQ LETTER 030320
Dear United Methodist Brothers and Sisters,
In this season of Lent, with the world caught in the grip of war, we United Methodists remember Jesus’ words, “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations.” I call on all our churches in every place to be such a welcoming house for all people.
In the midst of our feelings of insecurity and lack of control, Jesus’ words invite us to gather in prayer.
Let us pray for all the leaders of the nations who are involved and affected in this present crisis.
Let us pray for all the military personnel and for their families and friends who wait, worry, and wonder.
Let us pray for a just resolution of this conflict.
Let us pray for the innocents in harm’s way, especially the children.
In the midst of the increasing international polarization over the appropriateness of this war, Jesus’ words teach us that our church sanctuaries are houses of Christian hospitality.
Let our sanctuaries welcome the anxious and fearful, providing for them a place of safety and power that we know through the saving power of Jesus.
Let our sanctuaries be gathering places for respectful and honorable Christian conversation across political perspectives.
Let our sanctuaries be centers for inter-religious dialogue, especially between Christians, Muslims, and Jews, that we may grow in understanding of one another.
Let our sanctuaries generate support for humanitarian relief for the citizens of Iraq now and in the future.
Let our sanctuaries be venues of peacemaking in our families, our local neighborhoods, and our global community.
God is calling us, the church of Jesus Christ, to be “a house of prayer for all the nations.” Please join us, your Council of Bishops from around the world, in prayer and witness to God’s vision in which the lion and the lamb lie down together in peace.
In the name of Christ, the Prince of Peace,
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 2:30:09 PM
As for 'dealing with the war"--it seems to me there are two sides here (or more): even the smallest church in central Texas will probably have a variety of opinions and expectations represented Sunday morning. Beyond that, keep in mind that there will be folks who are weary of "wall-to-wall war" and quite ready to either get some distance or get some perspective. Mention this, or ask about it, and let people know that it is OK to enter into worship to be reminded of "higher" things.
I also think that one can opt not to "preach" the war, but we all ought to "PRAY" about it. Consider offering a special time of prayer for people to raise whatever concerns, fears, hopes, questions, etc. they might have. Have them gather in groups of three or come to the designated "kneelers" in your worship space. Somehow carve out a place where folks can express to God and even each other whatever they wish about this conflict.
Interestingly, all of the passages for this day (the Decalogue, Ps. 19, John's story, and I Corinthians 18) have a theme of "putting people in their place" and "letting God be God." Whether it is the people gathered to hear from the God who has called and led them, or the ancient psalmist rejoicing in his/her morning devotions, or the religious people catching their collective breath at Jesus' audacious authority, or even refusing to trade in the message of the cross for something of our own choosing--all these passages help "put us in our place." God stands "over against" all humanity--not just Israel or Iraquis, but also Christians and Americans: God sets the agenda of history, even when human beings see or feel themselves in control. By "standing over against us," God is able to speak and act to bring us comfort and challenge. So any and all of these passages bring a helpful and hopeful word during this time.
One other thing occurs to me (and was sparked by "Eric in KS" mentioning how we tend to "root" and be captivated by all the coverage of the war). This conflict has brought a new meaning to the term "March Madness," hasn't it? Once upon a time, it was wall-to-wall basketball during these days in March, but now even the NCAA tourney is being trumped as the networks give "play-by-play" of the warfare. So we can turn from ESPN to NBC as we cheer or curse the basketball battles then cheer or curse the desert battles. And probably we are tempted to cheer for Jesus here--"Go, get 'em, Lord! Set 'em straight, Jesus!" How dangerous if we read John's account as a parable of our contemporary situation: seeing ourselves in "righteous anger" going on a mission to "clean house"; rather, it is Jesus alone--King of kings and Lord of lords--who has been given authority to "turn the tables" in the "holy places" where God desires to rule and reign: our homes, lives, churches, and world.
We can take a lesson from Bonhoeffer and those of the "confessing movement" in Germany during WWII, who drafted the Barmen Declaration which contains these words, "Jesus Christ is the ONE WORD whom we must hear and whom we must obey" (my emphasis). So "letting Jesus speak" is perhaps even more important during these days of conflict.
TK in OK
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 4:03:35 PM
Ph in OH, Could an undue concern about “conservative influence,” or the unfamiliar (to some) lengthiness of a “1/2 hour or more of ‘praise’ music,” and the critical analysis that names another’s encounter with God as “superficial” possibly “prevent us from worshiping God as we should?”
Or Eric in KS Could it be that while you were waiting to stop singing a trite little repetitive praise chorus, that others around you were unabashedly expressing their singular heart’s desire to worship God, with a steadily growing realization of God’s awesome holiness and worthiness in comparative relation to themselves. Why, it’s almost as annoying as, those four living creatures, each of them with six wings, full of eyes all around and inside, who day and night without ceasing sing, “Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty, who was and is and is to come.” (Now, there’s a teacup saucer one could drown in.)
I think this text can be heard to ask us to re-examine the condition of our hearts - the priority we follow, as we undertake the rituals of our worship to God. Is it Christ centered, or cult centered? (No matter what the style…)
My two cents on the “Worship Wars.”
Just another Tom
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 6:22:35 PM
Sadly, there is not enough time to read all the postings right now. Please forgive if I state something someone else has already said.
As Christians serving the Prince of Peace, we are to pray for peace. But we are also called to pray for God's will to be done on this earth. Is that not what we have been praying for in all the days, weeks, and months leading up to this point in time? With all the praying that has gone on for God's will to be done, why is it we aren't trusting that G.W. Bush is acting according to God's will?
Who are we to make judgment that this is right or wrong? Do any of us REALLY know for sure? I don't. But I know that God is much smarter than any of us. Thank God!
peace, katinPA
Date: 3/21/2003
Time: 7:46:34 PM
Wow do I have to struggle with input at this point. I cannot imagine standing in a pulpit anywhere on this world and suggest that an act of violence is the will of God. I have no doubt that God can take this decision and these actions and work for good with those who Love God. But to hint that God, revealed in Jesus Christ, supports "Shock and Awe" of bombs on Iraq saddens me. I'm sorry, but I'm certain we can be supportive of our troops, pray for our president, pray for the people and soldiers of Iraq, pray for our Christian Brothers and Sisters that are in harms way on both sides of the war, pray for our Moslem Brothers and Sisters that are in harms way on both sides of the war, pray for the leaders of the world, pray for all who are loosing loved ones...and still not have to support a policy of terror and horror through missiles and bombs--suggesting that God wills it. God wills peace. God wills Shalom. Peace and Shalom bob, PA
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 2:12:40 AM
Just a word of thanks to "TK in OK" for your midweek thoughts which I found inspirational. They helped me to see the Temple passage as a challenge to me and my congregation to acknowledge that God is in control of every corner of our (personal, church, family, national) lives - and that is the only place where true peace is to be found - especially in times of war. The hymn after the sermon will be "All my hope on God is founded"
PB - UK
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 2:12:48 AM
Just a word of thanks to "TK in OK" for your midweek thoughts which I found inspirational. They helped me to see the Temple passage as a challenge to me and my congregation to acknowledge that God is in control of every corner of our (personal, church, family, national) lives - and that is the only place where true peace is to be found - especially in times of war. The hymn after the sermon will be "All my hope on God is founded"
PB - UK
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 5:30:15 AM
In reply to my comments about theologically shallow "praise music" just another Tom offered: "Why, it’s almost as annoying as, those four living creatures, each of them with six wings, full of eyes all around and inside, who day and night without ceasing sing, 'Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty, who was and is and is to come.' (Now, there’s a teacup saucer one could drown in.)"
I was going to let this pass ... but never one not to rise to the bait of well-stated sarcasm I decided to say something:
First: Tom, you are probably correct that others found moving and satisfying the experience of singing repeatedly, "I just want to praise you." Indeed, the fact that so many engage in this sort of worship suggests that it satisfies many. I would suggest, though, that as Christian clergy we have a duty to help people move from satisfaction with trite and shallow religion to deep and committed faith, to move from "wanting to praise" to actually praising.
Second: Although critical of the sort of "praise music" described (which, by the way, was not a "charicature" as suggested by another poster but an actual experience), I also acknowledge that there is much good in contemporary Christian music. (I almost wrote "contemporary hymnody" but I suspect that the composers of modern/postmodern church music would object to being accused of writing "hymns".) I have been a part of and been very moved by many contemporary services with as much or more spiritual content and theological depth as the greatest of the traditional hymns.
Third: There is are many and considerable differences between "I just want to praise you" and "Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty, who was and is and is to come." The first focuses on me -- the latter, on God. The first merely says I "want to praise" but never actually states the praise -- the latter, IS praise. The first says nothing about God -- the latter extols God's sanctity, omnipotence, and eternity. The first is like saying "I want to go to Paris" which is a different thing than actually going to Paris -- the latter is a response to being in Paris. There is no theology in the first -- the latter is theology. (And the latter is no teacup saucer -- in that simple statement of the angels are layers upon layers of meaning!)
To relate this to tomorrow's gospel lesson -- the first is like sitting in the temple courtyard, acting religious, and selling the animals for sacrifice -- but never actually entering the temple and making the sacrifice. "I just want to praise you" is a far cry from "take my life and let it be consecrated, Lord, to thee"! The first hasn't gotten started offering anything; the latter has offered everything.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 5:46:19 AM
Piggy-backing on the comments from Eric in KS, I wonder if we should remove the word "just" from our language, except in cases where we intend to speak of just-ice. If we were to put the word "only" in place of "just," would that way what we want? "Just" has become a fill-in word that usually means the opposite of what we intend to say.
Just a little pet peeve of mine!
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 6:33:06 AM
Hello again from sunny La Maddalena,Sardinia,Italy. I also have the challenge of preaching to a congregation of spouses left behind, [being myself a lay leader of the "Liturgical Protestants" in the same situation] while their active duty members are away serving on our US Navy ship. I usually pray for both world peace and shalom, my understanding of the peace that passes understanding; that the spouses be granted peace of mind. I was going to say that I do not have a need to find "justification" for the war, time will provide that or not, the Good Lord will provide that or not. Isn't justification a funny word to use for a war when we as Christian use it in a totally different context?? I certainly will NOT preach on the war, I will preach on Jesus and Lent and use some of the ideas presented before me here about cleansing ourselves to be worthy vessels of Christ, cleansing the temple so the Gentiles could worship and other wonderful thoughts on the Gospel.
In times like this, I try to remind my tiny congregation that the commandment, "thou shalt not kill" really should read, "thou shall not MURDER" and that even Martin Luther talked about our callings to work in life and discussed the military as a viable calling.
I wish you all the peace that passes understanding in your search for what to preach this Sunday. God Bless! Annie in Italy
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 9:36:46 AM
More on "March Madness"--this will work well for the "narrative" preachers out there--and something like it is probably where I'm going.
There are four tie-ins with "March Madness" and one can play off those connections in many ways: (1) the traditional basketball tourney, which gets trumped by... (2) a new "March madness"--namely the current warfare, with its feelings of anger on all sides the fact that is makes some sense to some and no sense to others (3) Jesus' "righteous anger" expressed in the Temple court, a sign of Jesus' ultimate authority over the "Temples" of our world (church, home, nation, personal lives) (4) the apparent insanity and impotence of the "message of the cross"--which contrasts to the images of strength and truth portrayed so vividly on ESPN and CNN as we switch back and forth from tourney to warfare
And finally, the point of all this is to seek our sources of sanity and security in the only power and wisdom which will finally be left standing when "time shall be no more": the Word of God we have heard in scripture and known in Jesus
TK in OK
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 10:33:18 AM
Would any one know the words to the song, "There's a rose that is blooming" (a.k.a. The Rose of Sharon) by H.R.Palmer 1834-1907 ????
Any help would be appreciated,
CD in Vancouver
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 10:40:12 AM
Here is a source for material on Jesus in the temple
http://inside.bard.edu/religion/facultyproj/temple/temple_jesus/
David in Kelowna
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 11:12:46 AM
re: the so-called "worship wars." I've shared before our unique position in this neighborhood. Our membership is mostly older women of European descent, whereas the area is growing (and will EXPLODE this summer) with younger families of African descent. We've talked about "worship styles," "our members' needs," etc. etc. I've been talking about it during the Lenten Luncheons and Bible study and evangelism committee, the difference between "cultural norms," and "core values." When we can be in unity on the core values, the cultural norm - praise music, taize, gospel, speaking in tongues, whateve - will develop as a natural outflow of our expression of devotion to the Living God. One can't just adopt a style and have it be worship. It's easy for any of us to confuse "cultural norm" with "core value."
I received an e-mail from a congregant today about someone who made a speech that got standing ovations because it told "tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, liberals" essentially to go to hell. It smacked of hoax, and it sounded vaguely familiar (the same person sent me that one about Madalyn Murray O'Hare and I wrote back that it's a hoax, and that after being missing for 20 years they found her remains 3 or 4 years ago). Anyways, what is so very troubling to me is the literal one-flesh feeling to American patriotism and Christianity, and that there's so much anger brewing.
I hope you can follow me here, because I'm sweating bullets ... Bear with me as I try to sort out my thoughts.
There is call for "righteous, or holy" anger. It's just that when holy anger falls into our hands (after all, we're just like those money changers - sinners) we polarize. Haven't all of us been accused of being from the devil? I don't know a preacher who hasn't, at some time, been so accused. The very people we're righteously angry at are righteously angry right back at us. Who's to know who's "right?" - especially with inflammatory false e-mails flying about making less-discerning people afraid to disagree with them.
I'm calling mine "Seek the Holy" and will ATTEMPT to explore Jesus' passion for the temple, - I think he was taking it personally; "temple" is a metaphor for his body (v. 21). Whatever we feel about this war (it troubles me) and war in general (though I'm not a pacifist), God gives us, to quote a man from our lectionary group, a "true north," no other gods before me. Not even the "god" of American Patriotism. Let's pray to God for our troops and leaders, let's be cautious about putting them in God's place. Even for a good cause.
Seek the holy. Pray for leaders, troops, and enemies alike.
Sally in GA (one really desperately-struggling preacher)
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 11:25:04 AM
CD in Vancouver: Try this:
There's a Rose that is blooming for you, friend,
There's a Rose that is blooming for me;
Its perfume is pervading the world, friend,
Its perfume is for you and for me.
All in vain did they crush this fair flower, friend,
All in vain did they shatter the tree;
For its roots, deeply bedded, sprang forth, friend,
And it blooms still for you and for me.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 12:27:20 PM
RE: Fool for Christ & what really makes God mad. You forgot to include conservatives in your list.
Likewise a fool
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 12:28:15 PM
Eric in KS,
Thank you so very much for the words to the song.
Blessings and Peace! CD in Vancouver
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 12:32:13 PM
TO, ARMY CH E, FtBelvoir, VA, and all, I have been misunderstood. I, in no way, believe that Saddam is a saint, nor do I believe that George W. Bush is a War monger; and to add to that, I do not believe our president is a saint. I do, however, believe that what Jesus is pointing to in this Johannine passage is the hiddenness of evil in institutions of power. The Temple was powerful, and its power was to be for the purposes of God's Shalom. But, the Temple was not used to bring about that Shalom, but rather as an institution to maintain power for the powerful. When I speak to parallels between what is going on in the United States and what is going on in this passage, it is to the similar positions of power held by the Temple (the attendents, animal traders, money changers, and priests) as a whole and the US. We in the United States are not an ordained messenger of God to bring Shalom. But, those of us who claim faith in God through Christ, are we not called to incarnate our belief in our political life, using what power we have to bring God's Shalom? Is that not what Jesus did and the very reason he died, on a cross--a military and political execution? How does one separate Christianity from political activism?
I agree totally that Saddam is an evil man and those who are under his power need to be freed. We can easily preach that we let our churches become Temples that skew the good news, we can also see how in our own lives that occurs. Let also not forget how easily our national ideology of the US can, as it has in the past, become our civil religion with Christianity's blessing.
My message this Sunday will not blast the US for being in this war. I will, however, call myself and my congregation to pray for the men and women who WE have chosen to put in harms way. Lastly, I will ask, whose Zeal consumes us...the Zeal for God's Shalom--even at the expense of ourselves(?) or the Zeal for national honor?
No easy answers come to me as I wrestle with the question of how to deal with persons such as Saddam. For I cannot separate my seeking to follow the Christ who calls me to believe in God's promises of restoration, a restoration not by military or political power but through assuring that whatever power I have must be used to insure that all have enough and can flourish--Shalom.
May God guide us in all that we do.
Shalom,
Perry
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 12:33:05 PM
TO, ARMY CH E, FtBelvoir, VA, and all, I have been misunderstood. I, in no way, believe that Saddam is a saint, nor do I believe that George W. Bush is a War monger; and to add to that, I do not believe our president is a saint. I do, however, believe that what Jesus is pointing to in this Johannine passage is the hiddenness of evil in institutions of power. The Temple was powerful, and its power was to be for the purposes of God's Shalom. But, the Temple was not used to bring about that Shalom, but rather as an institution to maintain power for the powerful. When I speak to parallels between what is going on in the United States and what is going on in this passage, it is to the similar positions of power held by the Temple (the attendents, animal traders, money changers, and priests) as a whole and the US. We in the United States are not an ordained messenger of God to bring Shalom. But, those of us who claim faith in God through Christ, are we not called to incarnate our belief in our political life, using what power we have to bring God's Shalom? Is that not what Jesus did and the very reason he died, on a cross--a military and political execution? How does one separate Christianity from political activism?
I agree totally that Saddam is an evil man and those who are under his power need to be freed. We can easily preach that we let our churches become Temples that skew the good news, we can also see how in our own lives that occurs. Let also not forget how easily our national ideology of the US can, as it has in the past, become our civil religion with Christianity's blessing.
My message this Sunday will not blast the US for being in this war. I will, however, call myself and my congregation to pray for the men and women who WE have chosen to put in harms way. Lastly, I will ask, whose Zeal consumes us...the Zeal for God's Shalom--even at the expense of ourselves(?) or the Zeal for national honor?
No easy answers come to me as I wrestle with the question of how to deal with persons such as Saddam. For I cannot separate my seeking to follow the Christ who calls me to believe in God's promises of restoration, a restoration not by military or political power but through assuring that whatever power I have must be used to insure that all have enough and can flourish--Shalom.
May God guide us in all that we do.
Shalom,
Perry
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 12:37:58 PM
Sorry, poor punctuation in my last post. Instead of, "I, in no way, believe that Saddam is a saint..." it should read "In no way do I believe that Saddam is a saint." Thanks,
Shalom,
Perry
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 2:01:10 PM
Watching CSPAN yesterday I heard a woman caller from Alabama say something like: "Muslims should be joining us in the war against the Iraqi government. We all worship the same God and we all have the duty to fight evil. We all have to fight Satan and Satan's name in the 21st Century is Saddam Hussein."
I thought, "Gosh! Talk about demonizing the enemy!" And I thought of all those Muslims (and Christian fundamentalists) who would argue that we do NOT all worship the same God, and of those Islamists for whom "Satan in the 21st Century" is named "The United States" or "George W. Bush"...
Why is it that we humans are so incapable of having differences of opinion, political differences, and even wars without demonization? I'm with Perry: Saddam is an evil man and evil men need to be dealt with. One would prefer to deal with evil in the way Christ taught (as summarized by his Apostle Paul): "Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' No, 'if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Rom. 12:17-21)
Saddam is an evil man, but Saddam is not Satan!
Just an observation....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 2:01:45 PM
CD... you're welcome. Eric in KS
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 2:11:57 PM
As I walked through my daily lifethis week, in the hill towns of Western Massachusetts, I have heard a multitude of voices.... voices of anger and voices of fear... Voices of frustration, voices of misunderstanding, and voices that cry harshly in fear they will not be heard. Often these voices are raised in argument, or in condemnation of others. Anger and misunderstanding threaten to drive a wedge of distrust between good and caring people. With the constant TV war coverage in the background, the voices become more strident. With the scream and crash of missiles and shells over Bagdhad, the fear and the distrust grows.
Siince when have those who protest war have become the enemy? Voices that call for peace have become "dissenters." Voices that call for personal freedom are regarded as traitors. Voices that call for God's protection for all of God's children are seen as "UnAmerican." Voices of those who have fought in other wars, those who fear a foreign threat, these are labeled "warmongers." Can we not have the flag of the country that we love raised beside a flag with a dove and an olive branch? Can we not pray for the safety of those from our towns who serve in the Armed Services? Can we not pray for their safe return home?
We are called, as baptized Christians, to love God above all else, and to have respect for the dignity of All of God's children. Can we not come together, as one voice, to pray for those who are innocent in this conflict... the wounded and the dead in the streets of Baghdad as well as the wounded and the dead who fight as soldiers... on both sides of the conflict. Can we not weep in the face of death, yet light a candle of hope for those who are in the midst of fire and brimstone and chaos... Can we not listen with respect to those whose views are different? Can we not hear the fear and concern in the voices of all in America?
This is a time when, above all, we need to listen to one another, reassure one another, and we need to be able to talk... we need to be able to express our very real fears and concerns.... May God have mercy on the children of this earth....
Jane in Shelburne Falls
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 4:05:27 PM
I know that this is late in the week and more of a point to the Exodus discussion but the point has been raised here and not in the other. The commandment not to kill is a specific which has nothing to do with war. All of the rules relating to it (Exodus 21, Numbers 35, and Deuteronomy 19) deal specifically with personal acts of murder or those situations where death is a result of other unlawful activity, negligence, or accident. For the words of the Law regarding war, read Deuteronomy 20. Those instructions are not such as we intelligent, high-minded, moral preachers would want to tell our congregations but they are the Law of the Old Testament as surely as the Ten Commandments, aren't they? If you are going to preach, "Thou shalt not kill," then preach it all and preach it right. Having said that, I want to address the current world situation. I don't buy into the "just war" theory. If God so loved the whole world like we claim, how can we "justify" an action that kills innocents? How can we "justify" the existence of things like AIDS, polio, smallbox, famine, poverty? I'm sorry but we live in a flawed world. That is the cause of war and all of these other things. Jesus said that we would have the poor with us always. He said that there would be wars and rumors of wars but the end would not be come. I can pray that God can use this to His glory, even if I can't understand how. I can pray for the leaders and the soldiers and the innocents on both sides. Mostly, I can trust in Him who died for my sake and in the One who raised Him from the grave. Blessings, Mike in Soddy Daisy
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 4:10:47 PM
If it means anything to this discussion the translation 'thou shal kill' is a bad translation. Instead it should say 'thou shall not murder'.
Rabbi Fred in Arkansas
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 4:16:26 PM
OLAS,
To a "fellow 46 year old"... I too was smacked over the head with the reality that it took a long time to make me who I am. 3 days is nothing!
;?)
Blessings,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 4:34:15 PM
Sally,
I appreciated the GS Cookie/Carnival Story... and the lottery ticket story...
I began a lottery account in our local bank when the lottery was legalized in ND. I now boast an account with $141 dollars. It will be my rainy day account... I'll do something with my family with it one day, but for now, instead of wasting my money on a slim to none chance deal. I'm investing in a posistive way to witness with my faith and put my money where my mouth is.
Blessings,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 4:39:19 PM
Creature Wayne,
Praying is always a good thing, Still, if you don't "preach" about the war from your pulpit, who will?
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 4:43:40 PM
Petereo,
A good insight... yes, although I have heard that THIS war may not pay off that well... even Alan Greenspan doesn't know what this war will cost? Not to mention the human toll.
Tears mixed in,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 4:58:01 PM
I am a first time participant in this, and this is a little late.
In my tradition, we'll use Exodus 20 for the first lesson, in which God is identified as a "Jealous God". "Jealous" could also be translated "Zealous". Could that be applied to the zeal Jesus feels for the Temple and our prayers?
Also, concerning the worship debate: I know of some old hymns that use repetition. I also know of some contemporary praise songs that have some deep thoughts to them, for example "Change my heart of God". There are many others. "Superficial" or "repetiteous", or "theological depth" could be applied to either side of the argument. PrMatt from MN
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 5:00:37 PM
Eric in KS
The area in Ohio I live in is called Appalachia, aka SE Ohio. PH in OH
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 5:01:40 PM
I believe it was TN Mack who made the comment about how we need to "tithe and pay higher tazes..." It takes guts to preach the GOSPEL... for you preach RAISE TAXES... and you're either a NUT or a Democrat!
I claim the latter... ;?)
with grins,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 7:31:45 PM
Is this what Jesus meant?
We've got a trailer in our parking lot... no it's not the churches trailer. It's the scouts who meet in our church every week. It was against a shed in the parsonage back yard which is next to the church. Now, they washed it today, moved it out into the parking lot, but the street with a FOR SALE sign on it. Do I say anything, before church? We've got a service at 3 PM tomorrow, am I wrong to ask them to move it? Am I "flipping tables" if I inquire about this?
Thanks,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 9:03:57 PM
Is anyone still here? I got to thinking about that image of Archbishop Oscar Romero... someone else mentioned him... I saw a clip of that movie in our FaithQuest Class. It's a pretty powerful image... I might try and show it tomorrow.
Preach the word folks, for if you don't, who will?
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/23/2003
Time: 4:46:20 AM
Rev. Steph in MD Thank you for the Prayer for the Children of Abraham, and for the Iona website. A gift to us all. Hopefully that prayer will be spoken across the nations on this Sunday.
Jane in SF
Date: 11/17/2003
Time: 2:07:07 PM
i am luthern and I love Jesus and I think religions are destroying everything and everyone. Too many cults are around us, JW, LDS ect. Just read and accept the real book, the bible, plain and simple.so easy, and you will go to heaven, dont let anyone tell you different. have a good life and enjoy life, everything in moderation.