Date: 14 Jan 2003
Time: 07:37:41
In recent weeks a lot of folks have been trying to figure out how to discuss the current threat of war in relation to the lessons. Today's lesson from Jonah provides the perfect entre, whatever your position. Nineveh is, quite literally, Iraq. Do we want Saddam and the Iraqis to repent or do we want to see them destroyed? What does God really want? -- Mike in Maryland
Date: 19 Jan 2003
Time: 11:46:55
God wants Saddam to repent. He claims he has. The question is, Has he? I guess that is why we have UN Weapons Inspectors there. Ph in OH
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 02:33:48
In regards to the repentance of modern Nineveh, would God have used force had they not repented? I guess what I am getting at is, was He bluffing? If he was not not bluffing, who would it have been? Would that nation have been "in the will of God"? In the past discussions there have been errors on all three sides. Some want war all too readily and are rushing that way. Some have no place for war at all. I only hope the other nations of the world and their political processes have a similar group. The fence sitters just can't make up their mind either way. Boy, are we in a picle. Mike in NC.
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 05:37:36
On the question of Saddam's repentance, I think most of the Arab states would agree that for him, repentance would mean leaving office. I spoke with a local imam (who is Albannian) and that is his view. However, while I can pray Saddam will see reality, I cannot make it happen. Getting the congregation I pastor to repent of those things that they need to repent of is a full plate for me... nuts... sometimes getting myself to do it is challenge a-plenty.
Mike in NC - I don't think God was bluffing, as Nahum and history display all too clearly.
Where to go with this passage, however, remains a mystery for me.
JG in WI
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 09:31:06
I see this as continuing the theme of God's initiative: imagine the shortest sermon ever preached - and begrudgingly, at that - and an entire nation repented and turned around!
Sally in GA
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 13:57:58
I find it hard to believe that God, the God that we have revealed to us in Christ would want any human being to be destroyed. God is always reaching out through Christ to turn the face of his people back to God.
If we remember that the people of Nineveh where a ruthless enemy of the Hebrew people who dragging Israelites out of the promise land into exile. God did not send in missiles with bombs strapped to their backs, which would indiscreetly kill innocent people. God sent one man, one man to witness his faith in God by preaching Gods message to a people that had destroyed this man’s world
It is also equally important that we keep in mind that it is God who is making the threat to Nineveh. The United States is not God!
When we turn to using violent force to persuade a threat that is not imminent, we turn ourselves away from God, and we display what little faith we have in the power of the Holy Sprit.
The message we as pastors can bring to our congregation through this text would be that God even wants to be reconciled with our so called enemies and that we as Christian disciples our called to witness to them the good news that God's love is for all his creation, even when that portion of God's Creation appears to be our enemy.
Mark, Kansas
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 14:13:57
Didn't Nineveh eventually get destroyed in the Book of Nahum or something? I'm not sure I like what that says about God.
Thank you for reminding me where Ninieveh was. it fits so well with the current situation.
But first Jonah had to repent so that he would bring the message. I am not sure that any of us are ready to bring a message to Nineveh mspastor in RI
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 14:21:52
Today's MLK,Jr. prayer breakfast theme was: "Where do we go from here: chaos or community?" The speaker (the Rev. William Barber II) reminded the planning committee that THEY had chosen the theme, and then informed/reminded the audience that this theme was the title of Dr. King's 1967 (next-to-last, but published less than a year before his murder) book. Barber then took us through that book, basing his remarks on MT 23:37-39--"killing the prophets..." King's Dream? or Lott's nightmare? he asked, then detailed dozens of Lott votes that enacted exactly what Dr. King described in that book as the resistance of the U. S. to the cause of "liberty and justice for all." He stressed how very radical Chaos or Community was--and remains. He warned against domesticating Dr. King and illustrated with the "content of their character not the color of their skin" remark from the '63 "Dream" speech: it does NOT show Dr. King would "oppose affirmative action." Quite the contrary--King would point out that "affirmative action" is as historically American as apple pie--from the Constitution's limitation of the franchise to white, male propertyholders, to George W. Bush's admission to Yale. The questions are: Who is being affirmed? and To the purpose of CLOSING a gap or of WIDENING that gap? And what would King have to say about Jonah going to Nineveh, to Iraq? Barber spoke the word: "Repent!" Stop killing the prophets [by twisting their words to support the evils they died opposing]. Remember who TRAINED Osama bin Laden. Remember how many millions of dollars in U. S. weaponry went to Saddam when D. C. found him useful. Repent, if you would go to Nineveh and call Saddam Hussein before the judgment seat of God.
I don't think Jonah ever repented, even though he complied with God's command and completed God's mission. Nineveh repented. God repented. Jonah, who could have claimed some credit for Nineveh's repentance, didn't repent--he resented.
As would resent Iraq's compliance with UN inspectors those presidents and pundits who are trying so persistently to use war as a weapon of mass distraction from the cold realities that Dr. King's 1967 book so eerily zeroes in on, and which remain the unfinished, and largely unaddressed errand of the U. S. --and the largely un-preached prophetic word of the American church. See? I can write this for your eyes....but will it find its way into Sunday's sermon....?
GGinNC
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 14:41:55
BTW--I borrowed my local college library's copy of MLK,Jr.'s Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community. Hard to put it down. Out of print--cheapest copy I found was about $25. Well worth reading! --GGinNC
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 18:39:16
I see this text dove-tailing with the Mark passage. The disciples went "immediately," but Jonah had to be told a second time. Nonetheless, both were effective.
As one who has thus far struggled (or should I say "straddled") with this issue, I have to tell you that this is the first time something really struck a chord with me:
"But first Jonah had to repent so that he would bring the message. I am not sure that any of us are ready to bring a message to Nineveh "
Whoah.
PastorBuzz in TN
Date: 20 Jan 2003
Time: 21:19:22
I do not believe God was bluffing. If so, God would not have needed to repent (change his mind) about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them.
In addition, this is the same God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. This is the same God who destroyed the city of Jericho in order to give the land to Israel.
In addition, the prophets insisted time and again that God used the enemies to discipline Israel for her evil ways. In no way do I mean to say that I believe that God wants the United States to declare war on anyone. I do not know fully the mind of God. No human does. However, I do believe God may use armies on both sides, and that God somehow will bring good out of whatever happens.
God, though merciful, must be allowed to punish, or God is not God, and mercy is not mercy.
In no way can we declare unequivocally that we are on God's side in declaring war. However, even in the midst of war, we can continue to strive to bring about God's peace, and repentance among all peoples.
Michelle
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 06:02:31
I too am trying to see and understand God's will with respect to Baghdad (Nineveh). It is often helpful to me to try to look for a bigger picture when striving for this. Jonah is a place to start. Nahum is another place to go. Yes, Nineveh repented and God relented. But the repentance didn't last, and neither did God's forebarence. How does that apply to present day Nineveh? I wish I had a clear word of God. Our calling is to strive to be more like Christ; Christ's defining moment was characterized by obedience in going to the cross, though for a moment at least, he pled for another path. Does God call us to go to the cross in the face of every tyrant? That has not always been the case. It was not always the case in the Bible stories. It has not always been the case among nations. I would offer that at times, perhaps often, in the affairs of nations God calls one side to go to the cross for the other, and we humans have missed or ignored that call. But it would be faulty logic and faulty theology to conclude, qed, that this time we must let Saddam and UBL have their way with us.
Bill in GA
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 10:08:56
Yes, Ninevah is modern day Iraq but we ought to be aware that drawing a direct parallel between the Biblical text and today's situation is being, IMHO, a bit too cute with the text.
I think a better parallel might be this the complex relationship between preachers, their call to preach, and their congregation. Jonah is called to go to Ninevah. He doesn't want to go, in fact gets on a boat and flees in the opposite direction. He gets swallowed up, spit out on dry land, and God calls him again.
He makes a half-hearted effort at preaching repentance which, surprisingly, bears remarkable fruit. Rather than being amazed or overjoyed he is angry.
Has anyone here ever done a baptism reluctantly, knowing that the couple had no intention of keeping the vows but the combination of one's own baptismal theology and the fact that the child's grandmother was likely to throw a church tantrum cause the pastor to perform the baptism anyway? Or how about the chronic alcoholic who demands a great deal of the pastor's time in counseling to make himself feel better about the mess he's made of his life but never listens to the pastor's advice to get some help? Or how about providing quality pastoral care to the pain in the butt parishoner during a serious operation knowing full well that a month after she recovers she will be back again trying to get the pastor run out of the parish?
I think the Jonah story hits much closer to home for those of us who feel we are overworked and under appreciated.
Matt in NJ
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 11:56:41
I likely will address the topic of Iraq as part of my message this Sunday -- using the Jonah lection. It's an interesting opportunity since Jonah's "Nineveh" is (as many have already noted) modern-day Iraq/Baghdad. I have realized just today that God IS nudging me to preach on this for Sunday, and it's challenging for me because I have very ambivalent feelings about it myself. On the one hand ... on the other hand . . .
Nevertheless . . . I am using my pastoral discretion to drop the assigned Gospel lection this week in favor of Matt. 5:43-48, in which Jesus calls us to love our enemies.
Dave K. in Ohio <><
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 12:01:51
For a marvelous litany related to the Nineveh/Iraq equation, check out this link:
http://home.att.net/~khawker/EpiphanyB3.html#top
It's copyrighted material -- but there is a link to the e-mail address for the person who composed this, and I have written her to ask for permission to use it in our worship this Sunday. I assume others may do likewise (especially since I found it touted on "The Text This Week" web site).
Dave K. in Ohio <><
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 12:55:06
Whereas some prophets in the Bible objected to prophesying because they saw NO hope, it appears that Jonah objects because there IS hope.
That's not what we read in the lectionary text this week but that's what I read when I continue through the end of the book.
RevReb
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 12:59:33
I find a few are uncomfortable with a God who brings judgment. At the same time, I find myself a great deal more uncomfortable with efforts to "tailor" God so He meets our standards. God doesn't need to be adjusted to me - I need to adjust to Him. Christ died on the cross to save us from that judgment. If that judgment wasn't a horrible thing, what did He die for? Also, a bluff is, essentially, a lie. I am far more uncomfortable with a God who intentionally deceives. Further, a God who is bluffing is to be ignored, just as any bluff is to be ignored. In the end of this reading, do we believe God chuckled and said, "Oh, I was only joshing ya," or was He saying, "I will be merciful?"
Rather than speak of Ninevah/Iraq question, I look at this being an example of God's glorious second chance. How many of God's greatest heroes were given a second chance? Abraham put his wife in danger because of his cowardice - twice. Moses was a murderer. David was an adulterer and a murderer. Peter denied Christ and all of the disciples but John ran out on him. What can one say of Saul of Tarsus?
How many of us have failed in our ministries? How many of us have been recipients of God's glorious second chance. A second chance for Jonah and for Ninevah are the themes I'm seeing here.
And did Jonah repent? If Jonah wrote this book (as ancient tradition claims), then this book may be the fruit of his repentance. No, by this point in the story he had not repented, but I see Jonah's repentance coming in what I call the "fifth" chapter of Jonah - where he writes his tale with tears in his eyes over the lessons God taught him. Perhaps if we share a time when God gave us a blessed second chance, the message will come to life for someone in the pew who needs one. I don't think I'll struggle to come up with a few personal illustrations.
Spurgeon said, "Speak to a broken heart and you will never lack for an audience." I plan to speak to people who need a second chance from God. I wonder if any will show up. (tongue in cheek)
JG in WI
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 13:19:04
I don't think Jonah wants a second chance. I don't think Jonah repented. I don't think modern scholarship embraces that Jonah wrote this book. I think Jonah went to Ninevah because he finally realized that he would not be able to flee from the presence of the Lord. I don't think this book is a book so much about God's grace as it the absence of Jonah's grace.
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 13:36:31
The real problem I have with the Ninevah/Iraq parallel is that Ninevah is the economically and militarily stronger nation. Jonah is a prophet of Israel -- the weaker nation -- who is told by God to call Ninevah to repentance so they won't be destroyed. Jonah knows that if God spares Ninevah there is a chance that they will oppress Israel. There also is a bit of cynicism on Jonah's part. He senses that their repentance will be short lived.
Yes, we preachers cite Bonhoffer and rail against cheap grace. Yet, there are times when God grants people what seems to us as cheap grace.
I believe a better parallel than Ninevah/Iraq is this: How about an African American pastor who is invited on Martin Luther King day to preach in an affluent, white congregation. He knows that he will be received politely. There will be all kinds of affirmations of his message and how well his congregation's choir sings. But he also knows that come Tuesday these very same people will be complaining about how affirmative action discriminates against white people. The MLK day repentance is likely to be a cheap, feel good sort where the white congregation invokes the memory of Dr. King's message of brotherhood to feels exonerated for centuries of racism. But the
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 13:45:48
Jonah didn't repent, but the people of Nineveh sure did! They wanted a second chance - and didn't know it until Jonah showed up.
We want second chances, but how often do we really accept them? We often live in a paradox of wanting absolution and to be counted as equals while never really accepting it. The Anne Tyler book "Saint Maybe" comes to mind.
The people of Nineveh accepted it. Jonah didn't.
I think of the Disciple Bible Study unit on this. What is our "Jonah" call - the one we do only begrudgingly? Iraq, a changed neighborhood, a child abuser, a wife beater, an axe murderer?
Sally in GA
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 14:04:00
There is no doubt that the book of Jonah speaks of Ninevah's repentance. What the book of Jonah (and according to the book) Jonah himself doesn't say is that the oracle he brings is from the Lord.
In fact, Jonah goes one day's walk into a three day walk city and says, "Forty days more and Ninevah shall be overthrown." He didn't, at least according to this translation, say that Ninevah would be destroyed. He didn't announce by what authority he makes such a statement! He's a foreigner who comes into someone else's place and makes an ambiguous threat!
Where did the forty days come from? That wasn't part of what God charged Jonah with delivering. What God said was to go to Ninevah and cry out against it, for their evil has come up before me. (1:2)
Furthermore, Jonah is quoted in the book as saying that Ninevah SHALL be overthrown. He didn't say that Ninevah might be overthrown. Jonah is not preaching repentance here. He's proclaiming that being "Overthrown" (whatever that means) as inevitable!
Therefore I find it very interesting that an oracle not expressly noted as a word of the Lord leads an entire city to repentance. Perhaps that's what "overthrown" means..radical repentance. That's apparently not what Jonah wanted to see, as evidenced in chapter four, but what happens nonetheless.
RevReb
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 18:38:30
A clarifying thought -
Jonah didn't want a second chance. Neither did I, but I got one anyway. Maybe some in the congregation I preach to don't want one either. It's a good thought... need to address it.
Peace,
JG in WI
Date: 21 Jan 2003
Time: 19:39:05
My understanding is that the book of Jonah was written as a story at a time in Jewish history when they were returning back to Israel, after being in Babylon, and were practicing "ethnic cleansing." They were practicing ethnic cleansing because some were teaching that the reason God allowed them to be overtaken by Babylon was because they had intermarried with non-Jewish people. So anyone who had non-Jewish blood in them, for 10 generations, were being excommunicated. This was exclusivity and racisism at its worse. Out of this period came two stories, the story of Ruth, and the story of Jonah. The story of Ruth says that King David has Moabite blood in him, through his great-grandmother. And the story of Jonah says that God cares for, and is heeded, by the gentile people of Ninevah. These stories were created to be anti-racial stories, directly addressing the ethnic cleansing that was being, horrifically, practiced. In this case, the literalism of the story, like Jonah living in the belly of a fish, and the whole city repenting after a short sentence, are in for style, and humour, not to be taken too literally. Brent in Pincher
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 06:16:32
How curious it is that repentance comes quickly and still we cannot receive it, Jonah lives among us. Trust is one of those things we seem to live so much without knowing, and so we do not trust anyone, even those who have reopented. Joanh is in us today. Who do we trust? Can we trust God to work things out, or must we step in and take control? Pres. Phil in KS
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 06:39:36
I have decided that the message must be on God's second chance to two sorts of people - those who desire it (the Ninevites) and those who do not (Jonah). In describing the latter, I think of C. S. Lewis and his famous conversion from atheism to theism toward the end of his book, "Surprised By Joy." He speak of how he prayed, "perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England." He goes on to say these astonishing words. "I did not see then what is not the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked hom on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape?... The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." This was Jonah. JG in WI
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 06:57:52
As we're talking about repentance, listen to how Frederick Buechner defines it in his book "Wishful Thinking - a theological ABC" REPENTANCE -
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 06:59:25
Ooops - continuing on To repent is to come to your senses. It is not so much something you do as something that happens. True repentance spends less time looking at the past and saying "I'm sorry," that to the future and saying "Wow!" Mark in WI
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 09:19:26
The geography of this story does provide a chance to talk about Iraq. But amidst all the discussion about Jonah going to Bagdad, here's another thought: how about Jonah going to Washington DC, "that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come before me." I'm not sure what I'm going to do wiht all of this, but it has certainly got me thinking... Dave in Iowa
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 10:27:54
Thanks for the quotes from C.S. Lewis and from Frederick Buechner. I read in the "Seasons of the Spirit" curriculum that "The point of the story and its real substance is that God's mercy will override God's justice." I like that. It says that "All of these quick turnarounds - Jonah turning around from God, the Ninevites turning around to God, and God turning around from justice to mercy - give style to the substance of this story." Brent in Pincher
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 12:20:23
I do think this scripture speaks of God's grace. First, there is the grace that is shown to Jonah. God could have left him in the belly of the fish. Even though he is given a second chance, he is still reluctant. So are we! Isn't it true that there are people we would rather not see repent. In reality, George W. wants the UN inspectors to find something so he can bomb the hell out of Iraq because Saddam, "Tried to kill my dad." This is a very personal situation for George. How many of us know people we would like to see go unsaved? How many would we like to not forgive? I do think it is very dangerous for us to equate Nineveh with Iraq. It would be safer, yet still effective to help the congregation deal with those they would rather not deal with. We really only want to do outreach evangelism to those who fit in, not those from the wrong part of town, those people in the reduced rent apartments, those with the piercings, those... PH in OH
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 12:24:47
The second grace is shown the people of Nineveh. These people repent and are shown grace. God's word is powerful. Our job as Christians is to proclaim it! We never know whose life will be changed. I don't think Jonah knew the Ninevites would repent. God chooses whom he will. God chose Andrew, Simon, James and John. No special reason, he just chose them. They left behind an old way of life and followed Jesus. This is a response to God's grace. PH in OH
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 12:27:52
Mark in Kansas, Thank you for your comments. I was so impressed with what you said, that I would like to include your post in our church newsletter. Of course, I would want your permission and I will properly note where this post came from and from whom. If you would rather email off this dialogue you can reach me at bonboyce1@aol.com. Peace to all you DPSer's out there. BB in IL
Date: 22 Jan 2003
Time: 18:15:14
Brent in Pincher, Thank you for your comments on the historic significance of these "anti-racism" stories. In a day and place where racism, though often not admitted, is practiced daily by many people, this word is especially needed. Michelle
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 00:26:30
Hello, First, thank you all for the many great comments I have read from you at very late hours of Sat. p.m. in the last few weeks. Two thoughts about the Jonah text: first, what an interesting "prooftexting" it is to just read these verses without the context. No fish, no rebellion, not even pouting under the tree. Looks like a great evangelism campaign, doesn't it. Reminds me that it is good to teach congregations to read the whole story! Second, I am a redevelopment pastor (church was dying, slowing turning around) and have titled my sermon, Jonah and Nineveh, the Ultimate Redevelopment Project. I think I am heading in the direction of what are the blocks in our lives/churches/hearts that keep us from bringing and being good news to those we think less of or have low projections for success? Anyone else out there in redevelopment land? Becky in WA
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 08:48:04
As I was reflecting on the discussuion this week one comment hit me, that if you look at just the text without rest of the book of Jonah, we miss out on some great stuff. This is so true. It was mentioned that Jonah didn't speak the words or message that God wanted him to. However, even though the words were wrong, the message was still clear, repent and they did. To me this is powerful, especially as a pastor. I know I have had sermons where I thought it was the worst one ever and someone comes up and tells me how wonderful it was, how God had spoken to them. I see this happening in Ninevah, Joah speaks the wrong words, but they hear God. Blessings, Bill in VA
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 09:09:53
I like the theme of Second Chances and the tie in with the Tyler book, "Saint Maybe." I am titling my sermon "upon further review" yes a tie in with football/superbowl. But in the nfl calls are only reversed or overturned when there a review is called for and there is indesputable visual evidence. God is a God of second and third and forth chances. At some point, the ninevites, thought there needs to be evidence of their repentance. Apolloguy TX
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 10:55:14
The site of Ninevah is across the Tigris river from present day Mosul, Iraq.(CHeck your maps....10% of Americans can't even locate America on a globe.) I don't think we have to draw exact parallels to our present day scenario with Iraq, because just telling the story of our text will evoke enough questions about our emotional and moral response right now in the face of war. (People can answer these questions for themselves.)Just for starters: 1)God is a God of all people in our story- the Ninevites, though AShtar was their God- read Allah-still heard the word of the Hebrew God; 2)Jonah considered these people hateful- seems there are some people America hates out there- and Jonah desired that destruction come to them and couldn't change his emotions about them ; 3)Jonah couldn't even think about mercy, so bent on destruction was he (have you noticed anything hell-bent towards a given solution no matter how the story is turning out? 4) Our story shows that God is both a God of justice AND a God of mercy (when wrongs are committed is punishment THE ONLY WAY to deal?) THere are some other interesting
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 10:58:24
The site of Ninevah is across the Tigris river from present day Mosul, Iraq.(CHeck your maps....10% of Americans can't even locate America on a globe.) I don't think we have to draw exact parallels to our present day scenario with Iraq, because just telling the story of our text will evoke enough questions about our emotional and moral response right now in the face of war. (People can answer these questions for themselves.)Just for starters: 1)God is a God of all people in our story- the Ninevites, though AShtar was their God- read Allah-still heard the word of the Hebrew God; 2)Jonah considered these people hateful- seems there are some people America hates out there- and Jonah desired that destruction come to them and couldn't change his emotions about them ; 3)Jonah couldn't even think about mercy, so bent on destruction was he (have you noticed anything hell-bent towards a given solution no matter how the story is turning out? 4) Our story shows that God is both a God of justice AND a God of mercy (when wrongs are committed is punishment THE ONLY WAY to deal?) THere are some other interesting topics around which to illustrate the Jonah text in the preceding discussion. Yet, it seems with our President not hearing the large church-going population that through their presiding officials have decried a preemptive strike against Iraq (45 church leaders signed a letter to the PResident last fall)- it might be our job as preachers to press this topic on this SUnday. -AEA
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 13:18:58
Some of you this week have argued that Jonah, by his actions, repented. Others have argued that he didn't. A couple of you talked about taking this text out of context. This is a significant observation. I believe the most important part of this story is the way it ends - it DOESN'T! This is an open-ended story, and, as one commentator notes, the open-endedness of the story thrusts the reader into Jonah's shoes, and demands an answer from us. Will WE repent? Will we willingly carry out the call of God to all people, or will we begrudge our enemies their chance at repentance. This is an question that hits home for all of us - we all have enemies, we all struggle with grudges and prejudice. If it isn't Iraq and grace that we flee from, it's race and grace, competitors and grace, regionalism and grace, class and grace, etc. Jonah's final confrontation with God slaps us in the face and demands that we give consideration to God's final question at the end of Jonah. What will or answer be? Ken in WV
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 13:47:20
It is simple Jonah had to be shaken lose from his anger and hatred of the people of Ninevah, he had to leave his disordered attachments in the belly of the fish, otherwise he would have been no good for God. It seems to me that our anger and other emotions often get in the way of our ministering, and we are unable to go when called. When we unhook our projections and let go of our attachments (detachment in the second reading) then we are ready to hear the invitation to discipleship. Perhaps, though Andrew and Peter and James and John were fishermen, they were not attached to their occupations and were able to move freely at the invitation to come ... tom in ga
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 16:41:51
Ken in WV - excellent summation to the book. JG in WI
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 17:21:41
Hi, DPS I plan to preach from Jonah. I am interested in suggestions, comments, and ideas to add to the sermon. A very rough and early outline is as follows: Introduction: It is the Response that counts. God always reaches for us. God is always trying to draw us nearer. God never changes. I. The people of Nineveh, when they stopped and heard the word of God, responded. They changed. Because of their response, God withheld the certain destruction that was coming to them. Nineveh was located in a place that is in the middle of present-day Iraq. The danger of that day can be compared to the danger of today. The lessons from the past are applicable today. It is the response of Nineveh that saved them; it is the response of present day Iraq that will determine the way America responds. II. Jonah tried to avoid God’s call. His first response was to flee God. This led to considerable difficulty on his part. It was his response that caused the problem with the fish. But, God always reaches for us. God is always trying to draw us nearer. God never changes. God continued to reach for Jonah. Finally, the second time Jonah responded the way that God wanted him to. Notice that God gave him a second chance. Then Jonah did what he should have done. He responded to the call of God. He didn’t want to, he responded with reluctance, but he responded. God used his response to reveal Himself to the people of Nineveh and they were all saved. It is the response that counts. III. God is calling you to come closer to him. God is calling you to some task of service. I may not know what it is, but you do. God is always, persistently trying to draw you nearer. Perhaps the first time you hear God’s call you respond like the people of Nineveh. Perhaps you are more like Jonah and need to be reminded and encouraged. Perhaps you are like Jonah and you respond half-heartedly. The important thing is that you respond to God. Closing. What is your response to God today? How will you serve God? How will you reach out in love to those in who live as your neighbors in your own Nineveh? Leon in NC<><
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 17:57:56
Incredible posts this week! Thank you especially Mark,JG, RevReb, Brent, PH, AEA. A light aside: I'm wondering if anything can be made of Jonah being caught and swallowed by a fish, and the disciples catching fish (fishing for people)? DGinNYC
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 19:37:06
Thank you for pointing out the anti-racial context for this sermon. But what is this "horrific ethnic cleansing" Brent refers to? Is there a Biblical reference? DGinNYC
Date: 23 Jan 2003
Time: 22:22:43
DGinNYC. Thanks for you question regarding evidence regarding the "ethnic cleansing" which resulted in the book of Ruth and the book of Jonah. (I don't think the ethnic cleasing was killing, as it was banishing and beating). I was first introduced to this idea in the book "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" by John Shelby Spong. He first says that "a central idea in the Jewish Scriptures was the sense of being chosen." But then he says: "The great danger present, however, in believing yourself to be expecially chosen is that it becomes easy to view those who are not of your people as God's expecially unchosen." He comes to say that as the people tried to make sense of why God allowed them to be taken away by the Babylonians, they "pounced on the idea of ethnic purity," amoung other errors and sins. "Foreigners were the culprits. The scapegoat had been identified." He says: "Under Ezra and Nehemiah, laws were passed making it a crime to live in Judah unless you were a full-blooded Jew to the tenth generation. Married couples were split by these laws, for less than full-blooded Jews had to be banished. Families were torn asunder by these laws, for half-breed children also had to be banished." He says that no one could counter the dominant voices of the time politically. So the most effective measure of entering a counter-voice was to put the dissident voice in the form of a story. Hence the story of Ruth and the story of Jonah. Looking at the books of Ezra and Nehemiah, there are clear chapters about getting rid of "foreign wives," sending away all "these wives and their children," separating "from Israel all those of foreign descent," and Nehemiah saying he "cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair" and making the people take oaths they would not let their children marry foreigners. (I don't think Nehemiah or Ezra were my kind of ministers). I could not find evidence of the ethnic-purity laws going back for ten generations. But I might be missing the line. It also might be a bit of mathmatical scrutiny with the lists that occur near the end of the 10th chapter of Ezra. I don't know. That's an attempt at answering your question. Brent in Pincher
Date: 24 Jan 2003
Time: 05:45:32
Leon in NC, I think your outline looks good. One word of caution. When you say, "It is the response of Nineveh that saved them; it is the response of present day Iraq that will determine the way America responds," the parallel will be completely obvious to some that "America is the hand of God." Please don't say that. Michelle
Date: 24 Jan 2003
Time: 06:17:37
This one is posted also on the Mark page. My sermon is titled, "I Don' Wanna Go," and I will refer to a 1960 #1 song called, "Mr. Custer." I will bring in the Jonah story. I will mention costs and rewards of following. In the end, however, God keeps calling, whether we're hiding on a ship, mending nets in a boat, or swallowed in the belly of a prison. Sooner or later, we will follow, maybe wondering why we didn't do so sooner. The clergy/laity call is parallel. Many lay people follow God's call better than several clergy I know. You don't have to leave your home and occupation to follow God's call, sometimes your occupation is God's call, sometimes your avocation is God's call. Let's face it, your whole life is God's call. What all of us will need to give up are those things that interfere with God's call. For some it will be an occupation. For some it will be a lifestyle of self-abuse. God's call is insistent. Maybe you say you don' wanna go, but maybe you don' wanna be swallowed by a fish, either! Michelle
Date: 24 Jan 2003
Time: 13:25:13
Thanks for all the great comments and insights. Just a thought on "God never changes..." Isn't one of the messages of this story that God does, indeed, change? Human need, human response, seems to have a powerful effect on God and change God's actions accordingly... I know that seems to go counter to our traditional understanding of the nature of God, but it is one of the things that jumps out at me when I reflect on the story of Jonah... Just some food for thought... -Nanook of North(Northern Ontario)
Date: 24 Jan 2003
Time: 13:41:32
24 JAN 03 This week I came across the famous Apollo 17 Lunar mission photo of the earth (National Geographic or Smithsonian!). I looked a little closer and saw the US there between the clouds. Should it (a copy printed from the internet) to a friend and she saw the same thing... only it was actually the continent of AFRICA... between the clouds and my naturally Ameri-centric "lenses" I expected the US to be the center of the earth. Lo and behold (was tha Copernicus?), turns out the earth isn't even the center of the... hint hint... SOLAR system. Jonah wasn't about to expand his "boundaries" to include the Assyrian Ninevites. Do you suppose God sees God's world something like the Apollo 17 crew (and us now, thanks to the Hasselblad shot)? I'll tell you what you DON'T see on that marbled bowling ball: borders. Not national lines. God's love transcends and--you bet--includes the people of Iraq. Good for you brave ones preaching the love of Jesus Christ... his unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into his family (from Ephesians 1). Peter in WI
Date: 24 Jan 2003
Time: 16:48:01
Thank you, Brent, for your answer regarding "ethnic cleansing". I had since found the last chapter of Nehemiah. Are there also references for the laws regarding living in Judah? I don't like to quote things unless I can back them up. In any case, this whole discussion has expanded my view of the story, beyond the kid's musical "O Jonah" (which has been going through my head incessantly this week and driving me crazy!) To me, "horrific ethnic cleansing" conjures up images of widespread and systematic killings. We need to be careful how we describe it. DGinNYC
Date: 24 Jan 2003
Time: 16:53:55
Interesting that Americans automatically equate Ninevah with Iraq. Some of us living in other parts of the world equate Washington with Ninevah. - From Down Under preacher
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 08:55:14
Seeing as this will be Super Bowl Sunday, I have been waiting to use an illustration I saw a couple of weeks ago. At the end of the Tennessee Titans/Pittsburgh Steelers game (in overtime) the kicker kicked a field goal but a time-out had been called. He tried again and missed but there was a penalty called on the play. On the third attempt he put it through and the Titans won the game. The announcer said, "what redemption, he got a second chance!" I am opening my sermon on Jonah with this. Here in Canada we are not in a position to use the Ninevah/Iraq discussion but I will be talking about the "God of Second Chances." Thank-you for all the interesting posts. Craig in Ontario
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 09:16:44
Upon Reading the passage, three things jump out at me: 1) Even to those deemed "A great City" the message of the GOd is to be proclaimed 2)Even when we would have turned our backs, God gives us a second chance to be agents of his mesage 3)When we are sincere in our proclamtion of the Gospel we will see results
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 09:26:10
Dear Down Under Preacher, Thank God for multi-cultural internet postings. You hit the nail on head. If only all Americans could hear what you have so bravely pointed out. I will use your "corrective" in tomorrow's sermon. Again, thanks for the perspective from "down under." My regards to you and the other DSPers. May we all preach peace that moves beyond the human constructed borders we call "countries." BB in IL
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 14:24:13
I'm very hesitant to give to our response the weight that Leon in NC seems to give it. That puts salvation entirely in our hands, and reduces God to a patient but powerless suitor. I don't believe that. kbc in sc
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 14:26:28
I'm very reluctant to give to our response the weight Leon in NC seems to give it. That puts salvation entirely in our hands and reduces God to the role of a patient but powerless suitor. I don't believe that. kbc in sc
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 15:53:02
Good friends, The question is ... will we Ninevites hear the sound of the prophet clown? Will we repent of our place of power and prestige and possession? In the noise of the banging war drums, the voice of the prophet might sound as empty as this cry of Jonah. Might we listen to the broken voices about us? Might we hear the word of God crying through the ridiculous and absurd? Might we turn away from our evil ways? Jonah and God take the center stage, but our answers lie with those of Ninevah. Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 21:44:10
Well it is late Saturday nite but the truly desperate may stil be up. I'm using the whole of ch. 3, including the edict of the king of Ninevah for all to repent. I recall hearing a story about some insignificant sunday school teacher who won one soul to christ, who lead another one who became a preacher who won another to Christ who became a great revival speaker who preached in Billy Sunday who influenced Billy Graham whose preaching has touched millions, or something close to that. I am fuzzy on the exact chain of events and the names that fill the holes. Does anybody out there remember this? I want to say that Jonah didn't reach the whole city but he told enough folks for the word to get to someone who could influence the city. You never know what may result from the little you can do. The story in its rough form may do, but if you know it more fully, please share. Thanks. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 25 Jan 2003
Time: 21:54:52
What was Jonah afraid of? Could it be that he was most desperately afraid of succeeding (or of being part of God's merciful success)? Are we also so often afraid of succeeding, especially when it comes to the ministry of God? Success means work, it means risk, and it carries with it the burden of the "next step" of discipleship. And to stretch things into the modern context: are we desparately fearful of the prospect of God's peace, especially in the with such a mightily prepared force in the ready? Which outcome would be success in God's eyes?