Date: 2/20/2003
Time: 10:39:29 AM
3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.
It seems that the love of darkness is hard to overcome. Do we not seem to love the darkness today as well. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/14/2003
Time: 8:30:35 AM
What are the darknesses that dwell with in each of us. Darknesses I believe are both corporate, personal, Nancy -Wi
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 10:33:59 AM
Would any one know the words to the song, "There's a rose that is blooming" (a.k.a. The Rose of Sharon) by H.R.Palmer 1834-1907 ????
Any help would be appreciated,
CD in Vancouver
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 1:15:40 PM
Is this what you are looking for CD in Vancouver? Perhaps there is more. revstani
There's a Rose that is blooming for you, friend, There's a Rose that is blooming for me; Its perfume is pervading the world, friend, Its perfume is for you and for me.
All in vain did they crush this fair flower, friend, All in vain did they shatter the tree; For its roots, deeply bedded, sprang forth, friend, And it blooms still for you and for me.
--H. R. Palmer
Date: 3/22/2003
Time: 5:44:40 PM
Thank you, revstani...
I am hoping this is it... I am in charge of bilingual parish (Japanese and English), and I have the words in Japanese, supposedly translated from English. (Music and Lyrics by H.R. Palmer) Usually, the Internet is helpful, but in this case, there just isn't any site with the lyrics..
The wording of the English version you gave me are similar to the Japanese hymn, but the Japanese version has 3 verses.
Looks like we can sing the words you have given me... so I think we are going to give it a try...
Thanking you! CD in Vancouver
Date: 3/23/2003
Time: 12:19:00 PM
Yes, we try to hide things that we do that we know are wrong. We do them behind closed doors, where other people can't see, as if God can't see behind those closed doors.
Isn't it interesting how many things are not hidden, how many things are no longer considered to be wrong?
Michelle
Date: 3/23/2003
Time: 4:14:10 PM
One of my seminary professors used to say that everyone knows John 3:16 but not many know John 3:17. He gave special emphasis to this verse and said the church is too quick to condemn those who don't express their faith the same way that we do, but that Jesus died to save them, too. I have never forgotten that.
V. 19 gives me pause. There are many ways that I prefer darkness over light. This verse causes me to stop and re-evaluate my desires and my behavior.
Vs. 20-21 are intriguing. My first thoughts we of animals that are attracted by darkness and light and I immediately thought of moths and cockroaches. Would I dare use "Moths and Cockroaches" for a sermon title? Nah.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/24/2003
Time: 9:08:29 AM
Creature Wayne
Are you saying that all people are saved? What do you do with verse 18 it that is so? Some are condemned becasue they refuse to believe in Jesus.
Does the light expose us for what we really are? None of us are so clean that the light will not expose our sin. I see it exposed in most everyone in the Church sooner or later. I see it in the man with an eye for the women during church. (That has been known to be me at times, I must confess.) I am sure that he and I have been exposed to the light. I see the person who needs to tell a little too much in requesting prayer for the woman who is going out drinking while her children are not well clothed. I see it in the person who refuses to give to the church because they didn't get the organ placed where they wanted it. Does the light shine only on those that follow Jesus while those that don't follow Jesus get to keep their sin hidden??? BT in IN
Date: 3/24/2003
Time: 10:03:12 AM
Denial is pervasive. We find it so hard to admit when we are not right thinking, or right acting. When our actions are challenged we blame, explain and justify until we convince ourselves that we were right in the first place.
Confession is hard, in part because we are afraid that we will be condemned. Most of us have experience the pain of being condemned by someone that we wanted to love us. Vulnerability is dangerous. We will do almost anything to avoid that pain again.
But there is more behind our denial than a mistrust of unconditional love. We also long to keep our pride in tact. Confession is humbling. It means accepting that we are not in charge, are not perfect, do not have the right to our indignation at others failings.
It takes tremendous courage to come into the light. No wonder we prefer darkness. But without light we cannot see, and with no sight we cannot understand, and with no understanding we find it harder than ever to trust, put down our pride, and enter into the joy of forgiveness and restoration.
God loved us enough to send the light. Now, if we can just help folks muster the courage and humility it takes to let it shine on us! When we deny our sinfulness, we are simultaneously denying the possibility of redemption. We often remind people of how blessed it is to give, but fail to recognize how hard (but neccessary) it is to recieve.
Monday morning ramblings, but I think there are rich possibilities for connecting to the "real stuff" of the spiritual struggles in the daily life of the people in the pew (and pulpit!)
-SS in PA
Date: 3/24/2003
Time: 11:37:20 AM
BT in IN
No, I'm not saying that everyone is saved, but I have been in churches in which I was not considered saved until I was saved in their church and baptized by them. They did not accept any of my previous Christian experience before I came to them. I still have some problems with their attitude about that. Some churches are too quick to condemn others who do not have their same Christian experience and/or do not express their faith in the same way. I hope that makes sense.
My other comments were mostly rambling thoughts in an effort to get started into the text. I thought it was funny that the two critters that came to mind in relation to light and darkness were moths and cockroaches. I must be a mothroach or something.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/24/2003
Time: 6:03:44 PM
Creature Wayne Thanks for the clairification. BT in IN
Date: 3/24/2003
Time: 6:05:33 PM
The primary animals of the night in wisconsin are the skunk and the racoon... Just back from a very moving time in carlsbad caverns, where if it weren't for the light nothing would be revealed... Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/25/2003
Time: 4:49:41 AM
In the world today, Jesus being the key to salvation is seen as a condemnation of "other faiths". This PC view infultrates the church who are concerned about the gospel being seen as a means by which we condem others.
Yet these verses imply, and scripture verifies that we are ALL condemned WITHOUT the saving grace of Christ: Condemned already (v17)! God in Jesus has sent the only means of salvation - and that is good news - the means by which God brings Freedom to those who will turn to Him; NOT the means by which God brings condemnation!
Of course, the CROSS has always looked like a sign of CONDEMNATION to those who do not see the light!
So there is a lesson for us not to be drawn by arguments that presume the cross is the means by which people (other religions, 'nice' people, those who have never heard, or cannot hear) are condemned. There is a lesson to look rather to the freedom that is made available and needed by all.
Date: 3/25/2003
Time: 6:12:56 AM
A great resource for this Sunday is Sabastian Moore's "The Crucified Jesus is no Stranger." It is a little Jungian, but when our symbols don't speak, this evangelical psychotherapist has much to say. Sabastian is a monk of Downside Abbey in England.
Enjoy, tom in ga
Date: 3/25/2003
Time: 8:15:00 AM
We condemn ourselves. Rather than a polarized "sheep" and "goats" sort of thing, those who can't or don't come to the light are simply in the dark - unaware - and, until they recognize that the light is there, they're simply aware that something's missing. My favorite example is the song, "Looking for love in all the wrong places."
This is one of my favorite texts for prevenient grace. The main reason I'm a UM. God is never absent from us; rather, we're absent from God.
Sally in GA
Date: 3/25/2003
Time: 8:57:06 AM
I copied down a great quote last week, but I don't have it in front of me now, so this may be an unintentional paraphrase-"There is not enough darkness in the world to extiguish the light from one candle." I like the reminder that darkness isn't a substance, but the lack of it. One candle can penetrate a whole lot of darkness! The same source also stated,"A burning candle loses nothing in lighting another candle."
Creature Wayne, I like the title "Moths and cockroaches." Perhaps the reason a moth is so attracted to the light is that it has spent some time in the self-imposed darkness of the cacoon, being changed from a crawler to a flyer. That is kind of what Lent is about, isn't it? tom in TN(USA)
Date: 3/25/2003
Time: 3:53:32 PM
from "Sundays and Seasons"
To explain the salvation of God to the religious leader Nicodemus, Jesus refers to the scripture passage quoted in this week's first reading. Just as those who looked upon the bronze serpent were healed, so people will be saved when they behold Christ lifted up on the cross.
All three readings - the account of the serpent in the wilderness from Numbers, Jesus' recounting of that account, and Paul's proclamation to the Ephesians - work hand in hand to provide clear images of and references to God's grace and resurrection. The cross, like the serpent, has the power to destroy, yet paradoxically it also has the power to restore. The same judge who holds the authority to sentence us to death after death because of who we are, trespassers and evildoers, has the mercy to grant us life after life because of unconditional love for us through our faith in Christ. It is the same document that can be read two different ways. The lens through which the pronouncement is read is faith. Life is pronounced, for those who believe and thereby accept God's grace; death, for those who do not believe and cannot accept it.
Why would one choose death over life? Because the prince of this world and the ways of this world are seductive and appear to provide a shortcut, an easier route than the way that leads to Calvary. We know that temptation, and as we traverse desolate valleys on our journey, scripture reminds us of others in salvation history who traveled in the wilderness and judgment they faced in their rebellion.
But God has always been rich in mercy, even before the gift of Jesus Christ. And God continues to be merciful, because whoever believes in Jesus in whatever time and in whatever place will not be condemned, but will have eternal life. Psalm 107 responds to this good news with a loud Amen: "Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good, and his mercy endures forever."
Date: 3/25/2003
Time: 4:19:53 PM
At a rally the counsellor encouraged me as a 14 year old to say John 3:16 with my own name in it (substituted for "world" and "everyone"). A personal relationship with God is precious but I have grown to appeciate God's love of the world as this miraculous little planet with its wondrous creatures being so interdependent. Saving the world as expressing God's realm in every aspect of creation is so much more than saving individuals for eternal life. Petereo.
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 2:18:50 AM
To Do what is True...(from vs.21) sounds like a catchy title to me for a sermon. For me this is the constant battle in the church. Doing what is true and in accordance with the will of God is not a part of the character of most. Truth takes seeking what is true and then living by what we find to be true. In fact the Christian life is all about doing both... learning and then living it out in our daily lives.
This will preach but it will also convict. In my experience that means the pastor will be the bad guy because he shared the truth they did not want to see. Oh well, I just hope they don't turn the lights out on me as I preach. hehee KB in KS =)
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 5:34:02 AM
Help!
It's been requested that we sing a patriotic hymn every Sunday until this war is ended. I see both value and danger, some of the hymns are way too inappropriate! Even if there is one that would be loving for ALL God's people, we could use the same one throughout the experience maybe?
Suggestions?
Michelle
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 5:56:50 AM
Dear Michelle,
Wow. Patriotism and worship do seem to be problematic. After looking at the obvious choices of songs I agree with the predicament. They are America centric. Perhaps you could say, "Amen. Why don't you do that in Sunday School Assembly?"
I am as patriotic as they come, but I am uneasy introducing things like the pledge of allegiance and patriotic songs into worship especially under the circumstances of war. America should be in the service of God, not God in the service of America.
I will be looking forward to hearing the suggestions of the rest of the group.
Mike in NC
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 8:12:19 AM
Michelle: I agree, "patriotic" hymns truly are Ameri-centric. If you have a copy of the New Century Hymnal, though, I did find one possibility. " This Is My Song"...The tune is "Finlandia", and these are the lyrics. 1. ) This is my song. O God of all the nations. A song of peace for lands afar and mine. This is my song, the country where my heart is; here are my dreams, my holy shrine; but other hearts in other lands are beating with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.
2. My countries skies are bluer than the ocean, and sunlight beams on clover leaf and pine; but other lands have sunlight too, and clover, and skies are everywhere as blue as mine. O hear my song, O God of all the nations, a song of peace for their land and for mine.
These verses were published between the two world wars, according to the hymnal notes.
Hope that helps.
Blessings, Sharon in SD
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 8:12:27 AM
Responding to Michelle's query about "patriotic songs" ... which it's easy for me as a now "non-parochial" clergyperson to do, eh what? ...
I have always resisted singing the National Anthem in church (I even resist singing it in baseball stadia). I don't like singing a paean to a piece of cloth (or saying a pledge to it either).
However, I'm not adverse to hymns which invoke God's blessing on our nation: our national hymn ("God of our fathers, whose almight hand") seems particularly appropriate at this time. It DOES NOT ask God to blast our enemies; indeed, it seeks God's protection "from war's alarms". "God bless our native land" (to the tune of "America" or "God Save the Queen") also would be fine.
On the other hand... I wouldn't offer "My country 'tis of thee" or "O beautiful for spacious skies" -- they are hymns directed to the country not to God. (And the theological objections I voiced last week about "contemporary praise songs" which extol the worshiper, not the Worshipped, apply here.)
I would suggest as always appropriate the hymn known as "Melita" and sometimes called "The Navy Hymn". It begins "Eternal Father strong to save" -- there is a "pan-services" version which mentions not only those in peril on the sea, but those on land, in air, and in outer space.
Use of these hymns, however, must be combined with teaching, understanding, and prayer that we are not praying for the death of our enemies (remember Mark Twain's "The War Prayer"?) But, rather, an end to war and the establishment of "shalom" in which all may live.
When invited to preside at worship these days, I have taken to ending the service with a blessing which recites the following verses from Paul's Letter to the Romans:
"Beloved, bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are. Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. ... Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
I would recommend that, more than patriotic songs, for inclusion in worship services during this and any time of war.
Blessings, Eric (still) in KS
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 8:57:40 AM
I remember as a kid singing "O God, Our Help in Ages Past" at school assemblies on Remembrance Day (Nov. 11, I don't know what Americans call that day). That was obviously before we had to eliminate any spiritual references from school.
O God, Our Help in Ages Past - text: Isaac Watts - tune: William Croft
1. O God, our help in ages past, Our hope for years to come, Our shelter from the stormy blast, And our eternal home:
2. Under the shadow of your throne Your saints have dwelt secure; Sufficient is your arm alone, And our defense is sure.
3. Before the hills in order stood Or earth received its frame, From everlasting you are God, To endless years the same.
4. A thousand ages in your sight Are like an evening gone, Short as the watch that ends the night Before the rising sun.
5. Time, like an ever-rolling stream, Soon bears us all away; We fly forgotten, as a dream Dies at the op'ning day.
6. O God, our help in ages past, Our hope for years to come, Still be our guard while troubles last And our eternal home!
ST. ANNE CM
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 11:31:51 AM
A colleague enlightened me with his commment that any sermon regarding the war should preach just as well in a Christian church in Baghdad as in a church in our community. Perhaps this thought might guide our selections of hymns as well. Challenging thought.
The Advent Spider
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 11:50:09 AM
The world does seem to be dark. For the gospel of John the "world" is a place infused with evil and darkness. Yet God so loved this world that God gave to it light. Light that dispells the darkness, light that gives life, life eternal..this life is a life we live now, even in the midst of darkness.
It is Lent. Lent is the season of lengthening days. A season when the light stays longer, and longer and we celebrate the end of this season with the day of light that gives life to all the world.
I hope we live in this light and the hope of the light to come, espeically during these days.
RB in Canada
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 12:11:11 PM
Michelle, I'll echo those who are suggesting "Eternal Father, Strong to Save." As the wife of a career Navy officer, now retired, I know how much it means to sing that particular song in a time of national crisis - when we sang it from a small base in Italy during the Gulf War, for instance. But now as the pastor of a congregation whose stance on the war runs the gamut from extreme to the other, I have a different perspective and a different challenge. The hymns I'm choosing right now are hymns like "God of Grace and God of Glory", songs that point the way to where our true allegiance lies.
God bless you in your choices!
Revpbc in AK (long-time listener but first-time contributor - and I thank you all for your insights and these conversations!)
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 12:11:43 PM
I can't help myself. I get this picture of people refusing to look at that serpent in Moses' day.
"If you just look at the snake you won't die."
"What are you, some kinda nut? I'm not looking at that snake. My mom and dad used to make me look at snakes when I was a kid. I don't have to now.?
"But the poison is already in you. You'll die if you don't."
"Oh, yeah sure... You're just trying to get my money. I know how you people are. I'm not looking at that snake."
"But you're going to die, and God wants to help you."
"Look, if I don't want to look at the snake, it's my business. I don't like to talk about religion. Leave me alone. Who are you to judge me just because a snake bit me?"
"But I am not judging you. You're condemned already."
"Leave me alone and turn out the light; would you? I'm getting sleepy"
"That's just the poison. You really need to look at the snake."
"No thanks, good night."
I am assuming you all can see the connection here.
GC in IL
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 12:29:14 PM
Both Numbers and John present us with a healing symbol: The bronze serpent raised before the Israelites heals them of the poisonous snake bites; the Son of man raised, lifted up, before the eyes of the people brings salvation. The "looking upon" is faith - seeing in this ironic and contradictory sign the healing grace of God.
As Sabastian Moore would put it (I think) when we look upon the cross we see our sin (that it is our sin that has placed Christ there) and yet at the same time, it is ourselves on the cross, for sin has put us their, our self hatred, our self loathing. It is only when we are able to see our sin that we are forgiven. Again the symbol of the wilderness pole and the calvary cross.
We are being invited to participate in the very freeing of ourselves from the Cross, not as something we can do for ourselves, but something that is being done for us through the grace of God.
On the cross, both the crucified and the crucifier come together and through that exchange healing is manifested.
tom in ga
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 1:14:01 PM
Michelle
Whenever there is a patriotic holiday and we sing those hymns, I always try to sneak in "This Is My Song" The words are:
This is my song, O God of all the nations, a song of peace for lands afar and mine. This is my hom, the country where my heart is; here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine; but other hearts in other lands are beating with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.
My country's skies are boluer than the ocean, and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine; but other land have sunlight too, and clover, and skies are everywhere as blue as mine. O hear my song, thou God of all the nations, a song of peace for their land and for mine.
This is my prayer, O Lord of all earth's kingdoms: Thy kingdom come; on earth thy will be done. Let Christ be lifted up till all shall serve him, and hearts united learn to live as one. O hear my prayer, thou God of all the nations; myself I give thee; let thy will be done.
The tune is Finlandia
The words fit with this text and with the current situation.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 1:23:37 PM
A Note on the War:
It seems to me that our government has been asking different questions than the church, thus leading our president to chose war over any peaceful means. I need help formulating the questions that they have been asking.
It seems to me that the church's question has had do do with humanitarian concerns in the region, the fear that this war will appear to be a crusade against Islam, that the region will become unstable, that surrounding countries will experience a rise in terrorism, etc. That before we act we need the United Nations support and backing.
The question our government seems to be asking has to do with the inability of Saddam to respond to the United Nations order to disarm his weapons of mass destruction, to seek change in an oppressive government that to the outside world he has the persona of Hitler; that all the civilized world needs to undo this government.
Almost every denomination: Roman, Anglican, major Protestant groups, and others have called this war immoral.
How do we frame the questions, how do we address our people?
tom in ga
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 1:35:09 PM
I apologize to Sharon in SD. I read Michelle's post about patriotic songs and responded before reading the responses of others. At least I was thinking along the same lines as someone else.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 2:42:23 PM
The early Christians were struggling to explain why Jesus died on the cross.
They may have taken a mythological story from the Jewish writings and tried to connect it to the meaning of Jesus - putting this theology on the lips of Jesus in this passage.
Perhaps what we refuse to see, what we deny, creates evil and disease.
Seeing our shadows, feeling our pain, facing our fears may be necessary to becoming whole (salvation).
The people who crucified Jesus really thought they were doing the world a favor by this deed. They wore religious gowns and three-piece suits. They denied the horror of what they were doing. They didn't see it.
Seeing Jesus on the cross? Does it mean seeing the various ways we continue to crucify ourselves, others and our planet? Does it mean "seeing our shadows, feeling our pain, facing our fears?" Brent in Pincher
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 3:00:32 PM
Thank you all for your suggestions on patriotic songs. I'll need to find "This Is My Song," I think that will be helpful.
For this Sunday, we will be using "O God Our Help in Ages Past" and "God of Our Fathers," as they appear in our hymnal. My only fear is that my "Amercentric" people will not be satisfied, but we can't satisfy everyone. True, teaching will need to accompany what we do these days (as always!) We did use "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" last week, but it wasn't recognized as a patriotic hymn! I would like to find the one that includes the other branches of the service, too.
Thanks again, everyone, for all your help.
Michelle
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 3:05:15 PM
Two Thoughts 1. Michelle: Last Sunday, (My organist chooses the hymns) As we sang "This is my Song," I broke down with tears. In all the war talk and exposure, I felt the spirit of God in that song. 2. Being a woman of color (and my husband and children being even darker than me) I find the use of the terms darkness and lightness problematic. I've grown to use different terminology. Something being too dark or too light can be blinding and out of focus, and when lightened and/or darkened vison becomes more focused and revealing. What do you all think?
Shalom
pasthersyl
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 3:39:26 PM
Michelle, I have the verses for "Eternal Father" from the Book of Worship for US Forces. There are too many to copy in here - if you want them, email me at erpcpastor@gci.net and I'll fax them to you -
revpbc in AK
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 3:40:35 PM
This text is a theological summary of Jesus' interactions with Nicodemus. Although this is not part of this week's text I think it is interesting that Nicodemus came to talk to Jesus in the night. Apparently he was attracted to Jesus (like a moth to a candle?) and wanted to find out more. Nic was a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews. Jesus engaged him in a cryptic conversation (which is problematic for me) about spiritual things when Nic thought he was talking about physical things. Then this text comes as a theological explanation. It is difficult to tell if it is Jesus or John who is speaking in these verses.
Maybe Jesus' encounter with Nic had an effect on Nic because later, when Jesus is being accused by the religious leaders, Nic speaks up on behalf of Jesus and says he should be given an opportunity to explain himself before he is judged. (John 7:50-51) Nicodemus also appears in John 19:39 and assists with the burial of Jesus.
What this says to me is that people can change from being creatures of the night to being creatures of the day. The transformation is not instantaneous, but happens over a period of time. This is true of my spiritual development. I find it helpful to apply the theological summation of our text to a living person like Nic et.al. Sermons don't happen instantaneously either. This one will surely evolve more before Sunday.
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 4:22:54 PM
Michelle, "This is My Song" is in your UM hymnal, #437. Just two pages over is "We Utter Our Cry," 439, which I just sang for the first time today in a district minister's meeting. The tune is not hard to learn, but #73, "O Worship the King" is the same metrically and substitutes well. We ended the worship part of the meeting with #730, "O Day of God, Draw Nigh" which is to the same tune as "Stand Up and Bless the Lord"(and also a couple of other hymns). These are not patriotic, per se, but amazingly appropriate to the time and situation. Try 'em, I think your folks will like them even better than "bombs bursting in air."
I too, am uneasy with patriotic songs in worship. I like "America" at a civic celebration, but the country is the object and God is in the third person. I wish "God Bless America" was in the hymnal, because it is sung TO God, and ABOUT America. I also find myself more leery than usual, these days, about militaristic hymns such as "Soldiers of Christ , Arise" and "Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross." These lend a chauvinistic, crusade-like feeling I don't think we need right now. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 3/26/2003
Time: 6:38:35 PM
This is my first post, but I've been enjoying responses for weeks. I've gotten a request for "Battle Hymn of the Republic". When I looked up the words, it sounds like you're singing that God's on our side, that God's will follows our cannons and missiles. What especially bothers me is that it implies the sacrifice of Jesus is incomplete in this world without the sacrifice of a soldier: "as he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free. . ." It bothers me.
I've also read lots of "praise music" bashing lately on this board. Just wanted to put my .02 on this. There are lots of "God-Centered" Contemporary Songs being made these days. I disagree with pegging all of the music as "me" centered, or "Just me and Jesus".
There are lots of classic hymns that highlight human bravado and distort the truth. Check out UMH #530 (Are Ye Able), first verse, and tell me that's not a gross interpretation of Scripture.
I'm going with John's use of Light and Darkness on Sunday, and I'm still struggling with where to take it. Thanks for all the comments.
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 4:53:35 AM
Creature Wayne: Thanks for your thoughts on Nic. He did indeed change dramatically. It has always been a comfort to me that a Pharisee could finally accept Jesus as the Messiah. Not all Pharisees were the bad guys. How uplifting. There is hope for all. Rev. Karen in Ontario
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 6:17:58 AM
I haven't seen all the discussion about praise choruses vs. hymns, but I see some reference to it here. I looked for an old funny refering to them which I copy below. I know it's got nothing to do with John 3.14-21 but it might give you a chuckle.
An old farmer went to the city one weekend and attended the big city church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was.
"Well," said the farmer, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang praise choruses instead of hymns."
"Praise choruses," said his wife. "What are those?"
"Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like hymns, only different," said the farmer.
"Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife.
The farmer said, "Well it's like this - If I were to say to you: ‘Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well that would be a hymn. If, on the other had, I were to say to you:
Martha, Martha, Martha, Oh, Martha, MARTHA, MARTHA, the cows, the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows, the white cows, the black and white cows, the COWS, COWS, COWS are in the corn, are in the corn, are in the corn, in the CORN, CORN, CORN, COOOOORRRRRNNNNN
then, if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well that would be a ‘praise chorus.'"
As luck would have it, the exact same Sunday a young, new Christian from the city church attended the small town church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was.
"Well," said the young man, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang hymns instead of regular songs."
"Hymns," said his wife, "What are those?"
"Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like regular songs, only different," said the young man.
"Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife.
The young man said, "Well its like this - If I were to say to you, ‘Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well that would be a regular song. If on the other hand I were to say to you:
Oh Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry Inclinest thine ear to the words of my mouth. Turn thou thy whole wondrous ear by and by To the righteous, inimitable, glorious truth.
For the way of the animals who can explain There in their heads is no shadow of sense. Hearkenest they in God's sun or his rain Unless from the mild, tempting corn they are fenced.
Yea those cows in glad bovine, rebellious delight, Have broke free their shackles, their warm pens eschewed Then goaded by minions of darkness and night They all my mild Chilliwack sweet corn have chewed.
So look to that bright shining day by and by, Where all foul corruptions of earth are reborn. Where no vicious animal makes my soul cry And I no longer see those foul cows in the corn.
then, if I were to do only verses one, three and four and do a key change on the last verse, well that would be a ‘hymn.'"
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 8:13:00 AM
Everyone has their experiences with evil. Growing up I had a sign on my forehead that said, "Pick on Me". I was the shy kid that just wanted to get along. Several school bullies decided to take their aggressions out on me. As an adult, that trend continued. Trying to be nice and playing by the rules didn't seem impress them much. Once I was assaulted at college right in front of a security officer who just happened to be the bullies friend.
One of my career moves as a UM minister was to spend time being a orison chaplain for the state of North Carolina. Talk about evil! Child molesters, murderers, rapists and more. Some of the stories of the people I worked are virtually unbeleivable...but true.
But I learned a few things. The Church as a whole has blind spots. It also spends a great deal of time taking the speck out of the world's eye while overlooking the log in its own eye.
In prison, it was virtually impossible to get the main line church such as RCC, UM, Episcopalian and the moderate Baptists to come in. Oh we talked a good game, but getting a UM to regularly come lead one to one or small group activities was very rare. So we condemned the government for not doing a good job but we did not do the job ourselves.
On the world situation, a similar dynamic took place. For literal decades, this evil dictator has ruled Iraq. The same churches that condemned this war were not going over there en masse to be human shields either for the people of Iraq, Iran or Kuwait all of which have suffered at the hands of this individual.
On comment this week was about how a good sermon should preaching in the US or Bagdad. I agree. That may mean accepting the failure of the church to be able to deal with evil in this age. Did we really expect to just point our finger in a dictator's face and say, "Now you shouldn't do that. Bad boy".
So what is our role as Christians in this age? I am still working that out. But I believe in light of the Gospel it is to lift Christ up. Not beat a war drum or protest for peace. We can do either but it isn't central to the gospel.
I am attaching my conclusion from this Sunday's sermon titled "Citizenship Choices". ___
But what about our Christian Citizenship? In this we are given few if any options. As a Christian, we can be praying for both ourselves and them doing what we can where we can for America while bringing the gospel message to our own hometown and the rest of the world. Our only options here is to carry out the gospel in our lives or to squelch that gospel in our own souls by whatever excuse seems to be handy.
Brothers and sisters, we are Christians in peace and in war. We are Christians whether things go well or ill. We are Christians in certainty or uncertainty. We are Christians in comfort or discomfort. We are Christians in light or darkness.
The world needs the light of this gospel now as much as ever. We as the little candles of God must remember we loose nothing by lighting another candle. We should also remember that one candle can displace a lot of darkness. The world is looking for political and spiritual freedom. Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
This is the Word of God for the people of God…
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 8:22:25 AM
Re: Sundays and Seasons "... has mercy to grant life after death because of unconditional love for us through our faith in Christ." Sounds to me like that unconditional love has the condition of faith in Christ. If grace has conditions attached, is it grace?
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 8:23:12 AM
Sorry - previous contribution re grace by LGB
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 10:03:12 AM
Tom in Ont - what a gem that musical funny was! I love it. I'm going to send it to several people on "both sides of the musical fence". I happen to love BOTH some hymns and some praise music -- I also happen to abhor some hymns and some praise music! However, since it is not MY WORSHIP alone, I tend to pick music my congregation loves and which is meaningful to them.
I read a comment on another forum that interested me about this text. It suggested that we leave the word "in" out of 3:16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes him may not perish but may have eternal life." I loved that.
Tom in GA, I think we need to rethink the idea that our "denominations" call this war immoral. It might be more accurate to say the LEADERSHIP of our denominations that have stated such things. Just because you and I believe it is immoral, doesn't necessarily mean our entire denomination agrees. For example, visit UCC.org and take the poll about whether or not we agree that we should have gone to war. The UCC leadership has taken a very strong stance against war, and yet those who took the poll were in support 52% to 44%. I think the very essence of what you said in your post should be discussed in our churches -- tell people what your concerns are and what you (and others who are opposed to the war) believe, then discuss the opposite view. Maybe entering into some dialogue about it, so that each side of the issue has a chance to speak may help form some understanding on each side. Pastor Janel
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 11:06:21 AM
Michelle, Try the Navy Hymn, “Eternal Father, Strong to Save” has good theology and directs the listener or singer to God. The National Hymn, “God of Our Fathers” by Daniel Crane Roberts was written in 1876 (Great music too). ‘O God of Every Nation’ reminds singers that we are not alone on this planet and that the Creator loves the whole world. I’d skip ‘O Beautiful for Spacious Skies’ or other self congratulatory texts. Sue in Steubenville
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 1:16:26 PM
pasthersyl --
I heard a prayer years ago, on the feast of the conversion of Paul. The prayer talked about how so-called "white" light is actually composed of all the colours of teh rainbow, where "darkness" is what happens when all the colours are gone. It also talked about how Paul went to peoples of all colours and backgrounds to preach the gospel.
I don't know if that would be helpful or not.
You said you find other words for darkness and light. I'd be curious to find out what those are; these images happen so very often in the Bible, it would be good to have a way to make them powerful and not hurtful.
Heather in Sharon
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 1:19:01 PM
To LGB:
Faith is not something we do, or something we choose, or something we believe. Faith is a relationship with God, initiated by God, another gift of grace. So "unconditional love for us through our faith in Christ" is not about something we do to get the love, it's God's love for us due to God's choice for us, God's choice to be in relationship with us as evidenced in Christ.
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 3:18:42 PM
To Tom in Ontario Thank you - your contribution is very helpful ( : LGB
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 3:20:23 PM
Michelle,
"God of our Fathers" is not the greatest song for inclusive language, but it is a good song for patriotic reassurance, while not blatantly claiming that God is ONLY 'our God.' --Ponderin' Pastor in IL
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 4:52:35 PM
From some of my searching on this text.
Moses held up two different things. He held up the stone tablets, the law, certainly God's gift but the law was to teach the "old Adam or Eve" how to live, not as a way to save ourselves. As long as we depend on what we can do to try to save ourselves with the "thou-shalts-and-shalt-nots" or to try to cover up the sin and evil within us, we live in the darkness and are already condemned.
Moses also held up the "serpent on a stick." It was God's power to save from death. It was God's power and God's doing. Through the lifting up of the serpent on the stick, God established the means of salvation for those already inflicted with the serpents' deadly bite. Just as Moses lifted the serpent to save God's people, so Jesus is lifted up and "the true light which enlightens everyone" (Jn 1.9) brings us into the light and saves those who were already condemned.
Nicodemus was holding up the stone tablets so he couldn't understand Jesus' teaching about holding up the serpent on the stick. God's love for the world is shown, not in the tablets of stone, but in God's giving of his only Son on the cross. There, in Christ on the cross, God establishes eternal life as the alternative to eternal death.
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 4:52:57 PM
Thanks Heather in Sharon for responding:
For persons who it doesn't affect, there sometimes seems an insensitivity to the problem. Eric Law, who writes about multicultural ministry, says minorities can (not always, but sometimes) ignore such insensitivities and accept low power status, until they are overcome with anger. I personally think this is one of the cause of "terrorism."
Recently I became in touch with my own anger about the need to ignore these slights in order to help keep the peace. I discovered this ignoring of my real feelings was a stumbling block and something I have turned over to my Savior to allow Christ to redeem me from this sinfulness. Therefore I could write about it on my favorite site.
Your response to me was a blessing. I really can't express the Spirit I felt from your willingness to answer me.
I don't use light and darkness in my preaching (though I don't think my white parishioners would notice), but express the same sentiment in my preaching such as the "realness" one knows when in the Presence of Christ and our separateness from Christ when we sin. Some minority preachers use clearness and shadows.
Shalom
pasthersyl
Date: 3/27/2003
Time: 7:44:24 PM
Michelle, I also like "O God of Every Nation." "Savior, Again to Thy Dear name We Raise" is a good humble prayer for peace that doesn't condemn anyone. The line I like best is "from harm and danger keep thy children free". It hard to find peace hymns that are pro-peace but not necessarily anti-war. I'm against this war. But, as I told my congregation last week, no matter whether or not we think this is a just war, as Christians we can only respond in sadness that the world has come to this, and fall on our knees praying for a quick and just solution to the conflict, so that no more lives will have to be lost.
Now to the task of connecting serpents with Jesus. The connection is there, between lifting up the serpent and lifting up Jesus, healing and the cross, but it's abstract and deep, and I'm having a hard time fleshing it out.
Thank you all for your help. And for those of you who haven't looked yet, the posts on the Numbers page are great this week.
DGinNYC
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 5:33:02 AM
Mmmm.... on this war issue (preaching about which still seems a problem), I recently wrote the following to a former parishioner who sent me some war-supportive quotation from Colin Powell:
"I am struggling to keep above the politics of all of this -- to be supportive of the men and women of our armed forces (and Britain's) in their time of danger while not being supportive of the current American administration which I believe has gotten us to this point of warfare-without-significant-international-support through ineptitude in foreign affairs. (I'm a great fan of Colin Powell and believe that if his voice had been better heeded by the president -- who unfortunately seems to have paid greater attention to the likes of Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz -- we wouldn't be involved in this war at this time.)
"As one author I read recently put it -- 'Love of country is not necessarily love of government.' I love the country and I support our uniformed men and women; I don't love the government which has put those men and women at risk of death."
As we enter the second week of the war, my thought is that we would probably have been at this juncture eventually in any event. The question (for me) is not whether our armed forces would be in combat, but whether they would be there with or without the support of the rest of the world. If diplomacy had been better handled by the Bush administration, and I mean early on - not just the immediate pre-war wrangling over the "second resolution", I believe we would not be seeing ourselves portrayed as a "rogue superpower". Rather, we would be what we ought to be, the leader of a real coalition (not one made up primarily of essentially powerless nations we seem to have paid-off to support us).
So -- I don't know how one walks the delicate tightrope between supporting our men and women in harm's way and preaching the gospel of peace in the face of what was probably an inevitable (but possibly more internationally supported) conflict. I just know we have to do it....
And I have to do it this evening as part of "job interview" for pastorate. I've been asked to celebrate the Eucharist with the search committee, governing board, and staff, and to preach on the lessons in the Episcopal Church's calendar of saints for today -- which just happen to be the Beatitudes from Matthew, and Paul's exhortation not to answer evil with evil but to overcome evil with good.... Egads!
Blessings, Eric in Limbo (but still resident in KS)
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 6:32:41 AM
Eric in Kansas I will be praying for you. I do hope God has a congregation for you.
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 8:01:14 AM
Just a note in response to all the great comments. To Eric:you are in my prayers. Thanks for your generous contributions. To Creature Wayne: RE: Nic one of my seminary professors contrasted Nic with the woman at the well. She believed it was consistent with John's love of dark/light theme. He was a Pharisee and sought Jesus at night, Jesus spoke to him of being born of the spirit and he was stuck in the physical and did not get it. The woman at the well was considered by many to be a woman of ill repute which overshadowed for many her theological converstation (where shall we worship?) and her ministry (she went out and proclaimed and many were saved). She came to the well and met Jesus at mid-day.
pasthersyl and Heather: thanks for the discussion about people of color and use of dark and light language. I am trying to model sensitivity for my congregation in the use of language and I need reminders myself and really appreciate from your suggestions ks in ME
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 9:28:56 AM
pasthersyl:
I hear what you are saying and I want to be sensitive about using images of light and darkness and equating them with good and bad. It seems to me there is a fundamental difference between the concept of light as a form of energy which means darkness is the absence of light and light & dark as characteristics of color. Light and darkness are in the realm of physics whereas color, whether it is light or dark, is a physical characteristic. The point I'm trying to get at is this: It seems there should be some way to keep the image of light and darkness for communicating the gospel without it spilling over in an offensive way in relation to color, specifically skin color. Can this be done? I had already chosen "Into the Light" as my sermon title before I read your contributions, but now I am rethinking this. Is this a problem in languages other than English? Thanks for your insights. I am trying...
Creature Wayne
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 9:29:48 AM
Maybe a different slant than I've read so far, but I'm going to include in my sermon that God sent God's son into hostile territory, not as one of hundreds of thousands who had a small chance of being killed, but as one of one who would certainly die. God so loved the world, that God sent God's son to die, in order that the world would be saved.
Not cheering the war, but recognizing the sacrifice God made is greater even than that of those who will lose children in this war, and no question that God's intention is loving.
Michelle
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 10:07:44 AM
Michelle- Two hymns from the Lutheran Book of Worship are wonderful to use during this time of war. #415, God of Grace and God of Glory, and #416, O God of Every Nation. Vs 4 of #416 - "Keep bright in us the vision of days when war shall cease, When hatred and division give way to love and peace, Till dawns the morning glorious when truth and love shall reign, And Christ shall rule victorious o'er all the world's domain." This is my first posting but I am a frequent 'listener'. As a lay preacher, I thank you all for your conversation and insight! KF in Vancouver
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 10:25:22 AM
Michelle, In a Wesleyian Methodist Hymnal dated 1951 (I have a collection of old hymnals, I just looked in a couple I had handy) I found a couple that might work. If you want me to scan them and send them to you e-mail me. I can also look into some of my older hymnals as well if you like. My e-mail is kazimiera@juno.com
"God Bless Our Native Land" dated 1832 music by Lowell Mason Words by Siegfried A. Mahlmann and William E. Hickson 1. God bless our native land; firm may she ever stand through storm adn night; whent ehwild tempest rave, ruler of wind and wave, do thou our country save by they great might. 2. Gor her our prayers shall rise to God above the skies; on him we wait ; thou who art ever nigh, guarding with watchful eye, to thee aloud we cry, God save the State! 3. Not for this land alone, but be God's mercies shown form shor to shore; an dmy the nations see that men should brothers be, and from one family the wide world o'er.
And also: This one is more about peace in times of war than patriotic, but it should work for these times.
"let There Be Light" Words: William M. Vories, 1908 Music: adapted from Mozart, 1756-1791
1. Let ther be light, Lord God of Hosts, let here be wisdom on the earth; Let broad humanity have birth! Let there be deeds, instead of boasts 2. With in our passioned heart instil the calm that endth strain and strife; make us thy ministers of life; purge us form lusts that curse and kill. 3. Give us hte peace of vision clear to see our brothers' good our own to joy nad suffer not alone, the love that casteth out all feart 4. Let woe and waste of warfare cease, that useful labor yet may build; its home with love and laughter filled! God, give thye wayward children peace!
I won't post all of the others but they are just as good if not better:
About peace in times of war: "God the Omnipotent" Russian Words: Henry F. Chorley, 1842 Music: Alexi T. Lwoff, 1833 Asks God to give peace to Ours as well as all the nations
"Where Cross the Crowded Ways of Life" Germany Frank Mason North, 1903 From William Gardner's Sacred Melodies 1815 Talks about how God is the God of all races and clans
I hope all this was not too much, but I love looking up old hymns. God Bless, Kaza in Kansas
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 12:19:34 PM
Creature Wayne
I started to write, "If you feel the congregation you serve understands to what your use of light is referring, then your message title is find." But then I thought, "what right have I to determine how God leads you to preach?" I don't think I have that right. I do think my being truthfulness about the anger I've held on to because of hurtful words said to me throughout my life, is safely being shared with my fellow clergy, and I am grateful for all of you.
I'm praying to God for the people of Iraq who are torn over which benefactor to thank, the Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, who is one of their own, or the British, American forces,and others who say they are their liberators. They are starving, and that is foremost on their minds. I wish they could find a way to determine for themselves their future, so their children wont survive with smoldering anger.
With humans it is impossible, but with God all things are possible!
Shalom
pasthesyl
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 12:20:19 PM
that should have been pasthersyl
Shalom
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 11:49:46 PM
With regard to hymns for war-time (and for peace!) the following site has a large range: http://www.stainer.co.uk/hymns/remember.html
Steve in Western Australia
Date: 3/28/2003
Time: 11:50:01 PM
With regard to hymns for war-time (and for peace!) the following site has a large range: http://www.stainer.co.uk/hymns/remember.html
Steve in Western Australia
Date: 3/29/2003
Time: 5:57:15 AM
to pasthersyl Just logged on this morning and picked up on your concerns. (Here I should be working on finishing my sermon and I'm getting sidetracked -- again!) One of the most provocative seminary courses I took was taught by a (black) professor, Gilbert Bond, and was entitled "Looking On Darkness." It forever changed my understanding of the light/dark, black/white dualisms. We were required to reflect on these images through the lens of weekly readings, including (to name a few) everything from Scripture to "Othello" to Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" and Toni Morrison's "Playing In The Dark." (I highly recommend this last -- uncomfortable reading for light-skinned people like me, but well worth the effort!) Anyhow, among the many mind-boggling insights this study offered was from Gen. 1. If we believe God existed "before" he started creation, then until he said "Let there be light," he dwelt in darkness! If that doesn't make us rethink the light/dark imagery, I don't know what will! Better get back to my sermon, now (which by the way will NOT talk about light and dark!) Blessings, Rev Anitra in NY
Date: 3/29/2003
Time: 4:46:59 PM
I find it interesting to note that Hezekiah broke the bronze serpent (2 Ki 18:4) because the people had come to worship IT. Reminds me, in a way, of the catch phrase for a Christian music radio station - "Music you can believe in." Is it music we believe in? Is it religion we believe in? Is it our denominations we believe in? Is it our political viewpoints we believe in? Or is it Christ we believe in? Sometimes darkness has the trappings of light. Satan himself comes as an angel of light. We have to be careful to distinguish 'light' from 'THE LIGHT'
Ed in Ga
Date: 3/29/2003
Time: 4:54:08 PM
I'll apologize in advance for the long post, but since I'm at the tail end of this discussion not many will have to plow through it.
As a followup to my last post, here is my simple poem about mistaking 'light' for "THE LIGHT"
The Moth and the Flame
A candle burns as the dusk fades to night Casting a glow with its warm waxy light, Flickering softly with each passing breeze Seductively hinting, whispering "Please Come to me, come to me, it'll be all right."
The moth flutters by in a black satin sky And searching for light the flame catches his eye. As he wings his way towards it on his last errant flight It grows like a beacon, shattering the night. Its promise of warmth and of life just a lie.
And who is to blame, just who is to blame When the moth, when the moth flies toward the flame?
"Closer, closer" it calls, "come to me, come to me, I'm warm and I'm bright and no one will see Us dance in the dark for the night is so black And when we are done, you can always go back To the life that you had, come to me - you are free."
Yes, he is free, free to come - free to go. But the flame, the flame has captivated him so, That bound by his lust, his wayward desire, His anticipation rushing higher and higher, He flies to close to the beckoning glow.
And who is to blame, just who is to blame When the moth, when the moth is caught by the flame?
His wings have been tattered, they're torn and they're burned, Caught in the flame for which he had yearned. And still he struggles to draw even nearer Until at last the moth has been seared By a fate, some would say, that the moth has well earned.
The two become one, the moth and the fire, Once his beacon of lust, now his funeral pyre. And look at the flame! The flame it burns on But there is no more moth - the moth he is gone - With his life and his hopes, his dreams and desires.
And who is to blame, just who is to blame When the moth, when the moth is consumed by the flame?
"All temptations," it's said, "are common to man." So we ask "Can one or another withstand The candle's allure, its sensuous glow, The beacon that attracts and then scorches us so? Is it inside or outside the moth, or the man?"
From our birth to our death, from cradle to grave The candles they burn both the weak and the brave. So why do we ask "Who's to blame, who's to blame?" For when we stand before God, all our sins are the same. Should we not ask "From this fate who will save?"
For we all have been burned by the fire once, twice, thrice. Can we rise from the flame, is there hope, is there life? Yes there is a new life after death, after sin. There is a way to know life once again. The way is the truth and the life, Jesus Christ.
And He is the one who will save, who will save Our body from sin and our soul from the grave.
Date: 3/29/2003
Time: 5:33:09 PM
Michelle,
During this time of war, I have been drawn to the hymn "Let There Be Peace On Earth". While this may not be "patriotic" in the traditional sense, I have found this hymn to be especially meaningful to the congregation I serve as worship leader.
Melodee
Date: 3/29/2003
Time: 7:16:50 PM
Melodee,
Our congregation is going to sing "Let there be peace on earth" until there is Peace in Iraq. I hope that's soon...
With prayers,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/29/2003
Time: 10:13:24 PM
Ed in GA Many , many thanks for your contribution! I've been struggling to get my thoughts into some sort sort of coherence for this week's monologue and, rising at 6.00am this morning (as we put the clocks forward my body and brain think it's still 5.00am!)to do some final "assembly work" I found your contribution so helpful. Can you say who wrote the poem please? I think it will go well in our church magazine and I would like to credit the author.
AndyB in B'ham England
Date: 3/29/2003
Time: 10:44:03 PM
pasthersyl,
It is so late on Saturday night, you probably won't see this note, but worth trying.
My husband is black. And sometimes, he plays hide-and-seek with me, and sits in the dark waiting for me to look for him. He finds it easier to hide in the dark than I do. But I must say, whether I am white or dark, whether he is dark or white, it makes no difference. I need some light to see my husband, and we need the light to see who we are... The light of Christ shines on us, and eliminates us, showing us just who we are in God...
CD
Date: 3/30/2003
Time: 2:46:16 AM
Andy B - I wrote it in one of those rare moments of inspiration (?) email me and I will send you a cleaner copy so that you don't have to retype. You can reach me at 'hokiepokie' then the 'at' symbol, then'sandersville.net' (I find that by not posting the address as a string, the web crawlers don't find it and I get less spam)
Ed in Ga