Date: 15 Feb 2000
Time: 11:56:01
This has got to be one of the richest and yet most difficult of all passages--troubling even. Which way do we go with it? Is it all about Jesus' death and resurrection? Why so much passion for "My Father's House" that is the Temple, which we Christians believe no longer necessary, since now we have a perfect Temple in Christ? Does this passage justify getting so mad that we come close to actual violence? Just some early ruminations.
Peace, Boyd in NC
Date: 06 Mar 2000
Time: 15:42:48
Biblical scholars in the Jesus Seminar have recently dicided that the synoptic gospels are not as close to the historical Jesus as they though. The cleansing of the temple is one narrative which is common ground yet treated differently in John. The synoptics have Jesus cleansing the temple at the end of his ministry but for John this is the launching of Jesus public ministry. Jesus is throwing down the gauntlet, challenging for the spiritual leadership of Israel. Albert Sweitzer and the old Quest for the Historical Jesus saw Jesus as kind of a reluctant Messiah, encouraging the disciples to keep the messianic secret and then Jesus is caught in the tragic unfolding of history.
John gives us a very bold Jesus. It is no accident that the most gnostic of the 4 cannonized gospels has a Jesus whose mission from the beginning includes a liberation of the temple as a house of worship. Jesus the Liborator is not worried about being diplomatic but counts on the power of truth to set us free!!!
Date: 12 Mar 2000
Time: 13:14:00
JG in Wisconsin with early thoughts...
Remember that now the Holy Spirit dwells in each Chrisitan. WE are the temple. Our bodies are the temple of God.
We ought, then, to have the same zeal for our bodies as Jesus had for preserving the temple. Our bodies must be places God would want to dwell in and we must zealously preserve them as holy places.
I think we all know what this means as applied to drug use, sexuality, and obesity. It's not to say we ought to be "health nuts," but that we are to preserve God's temple in holiness.
Another point to note is that Jesus did not want His Father's house to be a marketplace. There's nothing particularly "evil" about marketplaces, but marketplaces are "common." The word "holy" means "uncommon." Our bodies are not to be used for "common" things but for "holy" things. This is not a "Sunday" religion we have; it is a way of life in which the body is treated as "holy" (not "unholy" as the gnostics said) and our lives are to be equally "holy" or "uncommon." The first reading deals with the ten commandments; the best guide to a "holy" or "uncommon" life. When we go with the majority, we are common. Holiness will make us a minority.
Early ramblings. More later.
Date: 15 Mar 2000
Time: 19:47:26
Dear Friends,
Isn't it interesting that today's Hebrew Scripture readings all focus on LAW... In Exodus, we get to hear the Decalogue; in the Psalm, we have an emphasis on loving the Law and finding solace and refuge in it.
Then, in the Gospel, we have Jesus railing at people for mistinterpreting things so badly, e.g. following the letter of the Law with respect to burnt sacrifices in the Temple BUT forgetting to have reverence for the Temple...
I think that there might be some way to take this Gospel, and its context re the Hebrew Scripture readings, and apply it to our zeal to observe Lent. Here it is, the 3rd week of Lent. Easter is still a ways off -- but I imagine the grind of whatever Lenten discipline we've taken on may have started to feel less-than exhilarating.
Do we look too much at Lent as a time to "obey the law of our discipline" and too little as a time to be reverent and loving and respectful before God? I believe that the latter is part of what Jesus was driving at, literally, when he sent all those moneychangers into the street, along with their sheep and cattle.
Maybe this would be a helpful connection for some parishioners who struggle to understand the "harsh" message in this passage.
Judith in NH
Date: 16 Mar 2000
Time: 15:52:40
As I see it, and from looking at the religious practices of the day, Jesus was attacking the "decently and in order" religious practices I(not extortion or the ethics) because they were missing something bigger. They were missing who he was and the holyness that he was bringing into the world, thru his life and then the body and blood on the cross. Are we not doing the same today with our "religious practices". We have lots of rules of how we should worship (printed and assumed), but are we really worshipping the Holy One? Are we missing the point? We are. We are providing all the services (not animals and money, which were needed in those days), but when it said and done, we might be missing something bigger. I plan to title my sermon, "Something Big", and try to show that something big is happening, in the midst of our everyday wanting to make things right for worship. We need to see the bigness of what Jesus and God are up to. Tom in Pittsburgh
Date: 16 Mar 2000
Time: 22:51:57
Jesus had always told his disciples and followers to "not tell anyone" after they had experieinced a miracle or theophany. Now the time has come. He is ready to take his stand. To have had his popularity overpower his mission would not have allowed Rome to ignore him. Now all things have been fulfilled. Now is the time. He is able to address to abuse and misuse in a way that will ultimately bring about his death. Hank in Texas
Date: 17 Mar 2000
Time: 13:39:10
Reference the Jesus Seminar.
What authority are they subject to? What credibility have they earned? What respect ought to offered them? And if so why?
I would humbly suggest earnest prayer before taking the Jesus Seminar very seriously as Biblical scholars or as an authoritative body of serious thinkers.
Rick in Va
Date: 17 Mar 2000
Time: 14:42:18
Dear friends,
While I trained at a seminary (BU School of Theology) giving much credence to the Jesus Seminar, I do believe that some of those scholars can help me frame my own questions more accurately. I believe that it's important to take both sides of an argument seriously. (Maybe this is because I used to teach rhetoric and debate to college freshmen.) Just because I disagree with a particular approach or solution to an issue doesn't mean that I can't learn something from hearing the opposing side's argument(s).
Re those who are over against the Jesus Seminar, I believe that Luke Timothy Johnson is one of the most measured and concise spokespeople. His book, "The Real Jesus" is quite fine.
Judith in NH
Date: 17 Mar 2000
Time: 14:44:19
OOPS! I meant that my seminary profs did NOT give much credence to the Jesus Seminary. (Sorry, prof. Paul Sampley!!!
Judith in NH
Date: 17 Mar 2000
Time: 14:45:44
OOPS! I meant that my NT profs at BU did NOT give much credence to the Jesus Seminar!!! (Sorry, Prof. Paul Sampley!)
Judith in NH
(we've had a lot of snow here and my brain is just reeling from the idea that spring is NOT yet visible...)
Date: 19 Mar 2000
Time: 21:42:49
I appreciate this "Desperate Preacher" site, but I will, hopefully, never be desperate enough to entertain wisdom from the Jesus Seminar heretics.
In paralell records of this event in the synoptics Jesus says "My house will be a house of prayer; but you have made it a den of robbers." Luke 19
What would an outside observer call your house of worship? Would they call it a house of meetings and adminstrators? A house of song? A house perhaps of Preaching? Not many would be confused as primarily a house of prayer.
This is the big thing we are missing friends - real relationship with a living Savior.
Tip over the tables and lets dance.
It's early yet - we'll see what the week holds.
God's best to all . . . New York Sheepdog
Date: 19 Mar 2000
Time: 21:43:04
I appreciate this "Desperate Preacher" site, but I will, hopefully, never be desperate enough to entertain wisdom from the Jesus Seminar heretics.
In paralell records of this event in the synoptics Jesus says "My house will be a house of prayer; but you have made it a den of robbers." Luke 19
What would an outside observer call your house of worship? Would they call it a house of meetings and adminstrators? A house of song? A house perhaps of Preaching? Not many would be confused as primarily a house of prayer.
This is the big thing we are missing friends - real relationship with a living Savior.
Tip over the tables and lets dance.
It's early yet - we'll see what the week holds.
God's best to all . . . New York Sheepdog
Date: 19 Mar 2000
Time: 23:34:17
Barclay has some good input on how the "religious" leaders were cheating the people during the money changing. As usual, Jesus was very angry with the religious proud who disregarded the Word of God and distorted it to make it fit their own pocketbooks. I would note short term anger is not sin. Ephesians 4:26 says, "In your anger do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold." (NIV) COMMENT: I definitely look for biblical input on DPS. Sometimes I am encouraged, other times shocked with grief. I would hope and pray we dwell on mainly Christian, biblically based sources. At one time we got too far from Scripture when "silver plate believers" began to quote their "silver plate." In fact, "Biblical scholars in the Jesus Seminar" seems to be an oxymoronish phrase. It is rather clear the group has decided to totally disregard the vast majority of the Bible as written, so how can anyone say they are really "biblical scholars?" As far as Rick's question on "what respect ought to be given them?" I give them (Jesus Seminar) no more respect than they have for the Bible, which is none. I vote for keeping this a biblically based "Lectionary forum for preaching" site.
Date: 19 Mar 2000
Time: 23:46:41
Oops, silver plate special was revup.
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 12:13:48
Can our zeal for the house of the Lord consume us so that our zeal takes over ownership of the house? I see so many struggleing concregrations holding onto the ownership of the church building believeing that that is the all in all. There are many concregrations with so few people who have not the finances to keep the building and the ministry going and therefore decide to stop the ministry for the sake of the building. It it not because they have no where else to go. Churches in the same demonation are usually within 2 miles.
I struggle with this passage. Many Christians have a zeal for the house of the Lord. But I am wondering do they have zeal for the Lord of the house? LPin PA
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 12:15:21
Can our zeal for the house of the Lord consume us so that our zeal takes over ownership of the house? I see so many struggleing concregrations holding onto the ownership of the church building believeing that that is the all in all. There are many concregrations with so few people who have not the finances to keep the building and the ministry going and therefore decide to stop the ministry for the sake of the building. It it not because they have no where else to go. Churches in the same demonation are usually within 2 miles.
I struggle with this passage. Many Christians have a zeal for the house of the Lord. But I am wondering do they have zeal for the Lord of the house? LPin PA
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 14:01:31
LPinPA makes a good point. I have served a number of small 2-point charges (UMC)in which the 2 congregations together wouldn't fill either sanctuary yet they maintain autonomy. Pride is not the only issue, though. Merging is kind of like moving in with your in-laws. Each congregation is like a nuclear family within the extended family of the Church, each with it's own history and customs, quirks and inside jokes. And some have good cause to stand their ground.
Buffalo UMC (Tn. Conf.)rarely has more than 2 dozen at their one Sunday morning service. The property is worth a small fortune, situated between a restuarant and a motel at the top of an off ramp on I-40. But in this less than picturesque spot, they have found a mission. Many weary "travelers" stop by asking aid (gas, food, lodging, money)to get a little farther down the road. Most churches I have served would be dubious of such folks, turning up noses at such(professional beggars, woking the system, etc.)."Who else would do it ?" they ask. I was proud to serve these few where 2 or 3 gathered and the Lord was in the house. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 14:42:40
My mind's eye has a clear imagine of this biblical scene, the picture is painted very clearly...probably because of the truth in the story and the contrast in Jesus' typical compassion to people ( there are people working the tables that he is turning over )...people are always connected to his instruction.
Maybe Jesus was responding to the people at the temple in a language/manner that they could understand...his language and attitude corresponded to their attitude ...bridging a communication gap. Would they have understood a less dramatic communication? Would we realize the fullest of his concern, today, if he had been less expressive?
OR... Is Jesus trying to emphasize the importance of the house of worship being a model of a larger expectation for relationship between God and us?
OR...both?
I am asking myself what money-changing and marketing at the church looks like across the historical gap since the first century. Just like the temple goers had become so accustomed to the temple scene that they didn't notice the particulars anymore...maybe, we, too, have become blinded to our church scenes.
I remember someone at " church " justifying the construction/interior decorating of an interior space of a large wealthy congregation by stating that people needed " church " spaces that were as nice as their homes. The price tag on that project were staggering to me relative to other possible uses of resources. Marketplace?
What about the salary packages of pastors in the temples of today? Do the large congregational pastors work harder? Are they more ministerially prepared and able to lead? Marketplace? What about the weekly newsletters and TV coverage?
What about the down-town churches moving to the suburbs, to the safe neighborhoods because the existing members now live in the suburbs? Marketplace?
Do these three examples look-like the marketplace or the church ? WWWJD? Kairos
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 18:35:19
My take on the cleansing of the Temple is this. The folks doing the selling and exchanging of currency were doing this in the Court of the Gentiles. This was the only place that converted Gentiles could worship God. They trek to the Temple to pray and worship and it's no different than the marketplace in Jerusalem. I get the sense that Jesus was upset that the Elders, Chief Priests, and Teachers of the Law (people responsible for bringing the people closer to God) were doing nothing about this matter. There's a sense of zeal for God's house, but I think also there is a connection to hindering or preventing people from worshipping God. There are all sorts of ways to run with this.
John near Pitts.
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 20:29:31
Insightful Friends––
What do you think? Could it be that religion is one of the great enemies of faith? Perhaps even its greatest enemy? Luther says that faith equals trust. "Show me what you trust," he wrote, "and I will show you your God."
Faith means building a trusting relationship with God. Religion creates a scorekeeping system. Faith means developing a deeply personal relationship with God and with others. Religion insulates us from God and others with a system of hierarchy and ritual purity. Faith defines sin as anything which damages our relationship. Religion defines sin as violation of law. Faith maintains that confession, forgiveness and fresh starts are the keys to restoring a relationship. Religion insists that the books must be balanced with literal equity, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, pain for pain. Faith says there is only one law: love. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love yourself. Religion says that there are at least 613 laws. Faith proclaims that your very body is a temple where your spirit joins in mystic union with the Spirit of the Holy One, that the very act of touching each other can bring healing and wholeness. Religion builds a temple of stone where we can re-enact our rituals of violence. Faith is about trust. Religion is about control. Religion, at its best, may be a servant of Faith. Religion on its own, is a poor substitute for Faith.
Yet we prefer Religion. Religion is much easier than faith, so, in the end, Religion is what most of us want. Faith brings life. But life is risky. Religion brings security.
We want a nice, comfortable religion. We want a nice, peaceful system that continually tells us that we’re okay. And if you doubt that you’re okay, well, there are these Untouchables over here who are so clearly NOT okay, and we all know we’re much better, cleaner, holier, nicer than THEY, now don’t we? It’s a big and scary world out there, and the universe is even bigger and scarier, so the God who made all that must be even scarier still. And we don’t want to think about that. It frightens us to think that our Religion might be a mistake, that what we were really created and called to is Faith—to have a living relationship with a living God who is so much larger in love and power and creativity that it fries our tiny imaginations. We want to take the infinite, limitless, multi-dimensional Word that spoke all things into existence and confine that astonishing deity in a few ancient texts from a dim history. We don’t want to think that maybe, just maybe, the Word is bigger and more present than The Holy Book. We don’t want to think that those beloved texts, which truly are a gift to us, which carry the flickering candle of God’s light through some very dark caverns of human history, that maybe those texts contain the bitter myrrh of human mistrust mixed with the divine wine of God’s generous love, guidance and grace. We don’t want to think that, perhaps, a very difficult part of our job in the life of Faith is to unravel those threads, to show each other and the world just which is which. That’s a lot for our little minds to wrap themselves around. We want to know where the walls of the box are at all times. We want to know who’s inside and who’s outside. We want to know who is enough like us to trust with minimum risk. We want to believe that God calls us to use our energies to reinforce the walls of the box. And the last thing we want to hear is that Jesus, Emmanuel, God With Us is calling us to push down the walls of the box, to tear them down altogether, to knock over the tables, to give up the idea of balancing the books, to consider that there’s really something else going on. The last thing we want to consider is that, in God’s loving eyes, there is no Us versus Them–– that it’s all Us–– that we have all been weighed in the balance and found wanting, and that there is not enough blood in all the universe to pay for that. The last thing we want to allow into our comfortable religion is the idea that God looks at ALL of us, even the ones of us that WE don’t like, with love and grace and pity and mercy–– that God is bigger than our petty discernment–– that God is laughing with a tinge of sadness and saying, "Oh you poor wretched, frightened things… don’t you see you’re all included? Don’t you see that the Kingdom and the Kin-dom is all around you already? Don’t you see how much I love you ALL??"
Could it be that Jesus came to overturn the tables of our religion? Could it be that Jesus came to say, "It’s not about balancing the books!"?
We want to have a nice, comfortable religion where all the boundaries and roles are understood, where all the authority and power is legitimately, clearly and ceremoniously vested in all the right people. We want a nicely packaged, consoling religion where none of our preconceptions are challenged too much, where the sinners and the righteous are easily and clearly identified, where none of our holy texts challenge us too much or make us squirm or call us to change the way we see and understand things.
We want a nice, comfortable religion where everything is business as usual, where holiness itself is a transaction: so much sin equals so much sacrifice. Pay your way in penance, and if the debt is too great (and it is), don’t worry, there’s a surplus in the treasury. All you have to do is give the intellectual nod to this substitutionary atonement theory, keep smiling, and try not to run up the debt too high. It’s all a transaction, and the President of the Bank of all Holiness knows you’re in over your head, so we’ve given you a line of credit. Just don’t turn over any of the trading tables. And don’t ask too many questions. Don’t wonder or worry just how it is that the pain of some poor, dumb animal bleeding out its life on the altar cleanses the sordid grime of violence from your spiritual face. Don’t ask how, exactly, it is that the blood of this innocent God-man hideously hung out in the afternoon sun somehow balances the books in your own dark accounting. And please, please, please, don’t bump the tables. Please don’t spill any of those coins. We have a nice, comfortable system set up here. It’s all a transaction, and we’ve got your debts recorded too. And please don’t suggest that it’s something other than that. Please don’t suggest that the cross is a demonstration of unimaginable love, that God becomes the focus of all the anger, angst and violence in the human soul, that God experiences the depth of human misery, suffering, rejection and pain in order to show us that it’s possible to endure all that violence and still love the dark, violent, sinful, unrepentant, miscomprehending, lost souls who do such things to each other. That idea would tip the tables a bit too far. That idea would unravel our tidy religion.
And if God loves even those who do such things, if God loves all those who fall outside the walls of religion… if Jesus keeps loving those who transfigure the beautiful gift of trust into the brutality of surrogate sacrifice… if Jesus keeps looking down from the cross and saying, "Forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing," if Faith keeps transcending Religion… if God refuses to hate even those who do violence to God’s own self… well, then, who do we get to officially hate?
Just a little food for thought as Jesus overturns all the tables in my courtyard.
Blessings, Steve in Orange
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 20:33:26
Maybe one way to go might be to ask what needs to be cleared out of "our temples-our bodies" in order to make them fit dwelling places for God. They should be houses of prayer and what is the clutter there that keeps them from that? Jesus cleanses the temple with some amount of passion and zeal. During this lent can we be zealous in cleaning up the temple. It also seems to me that the reflection on the court of the gentiles being the only place that the converted gentile could pray says that the thing which disturbed Jesus was the lack of hospitality towards those different than the mainstream. Another way to go might be about that. rev joy in Il
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 20:46:40
Insightful Friends-- Such good, good stuff so early in the week! As for the Jesus Seminar... while I find much to dislike in their methodology and conclusions, I do appreciate the way they have made us look again at the contexts of our holy texts. I have been studying and teaching the history of canon-- how the bible came to be The Bible, and I've found it very valuable to consider just why and how certain texts were included while others were excluded. The Jesus Seminar has, at the very least, caused many of us to "always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in us" with reverence and gentleness (1Peter 3:15-16). Nothing sharpens your scholarship more than a proposition with which you disagree.
LP in PA... thank you for stating so succinctly in a single phrase a thought that took me many paragraphs to struggle through: Zeal for the house of the Lord vs. Zeal for the Lord of the house.
Blessings, Steve in Orange
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 21:07:52
This reminds me of Civil Right sit-ins and various other demonstration.. Especially signficant is that the demonstration occurs at the point of greatest symbolic presence for those in power. Certainly after this incident there was an FBI file started on Jesus. I see Jesus stripping away that which is not God, that hides God, that has people settle for less than God. Jesus is opening worship to the presence of God. This is not only a step toward the crucifixion but also toward resurrection of the body and the Spirit infilling that comes at Pentecost and creates the newness of God's worship. It's Monday, but I may go this way. John of Chicago
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 22:06:16
Here is the call to worship and prayer of confession I wrote for this week. I sets me up for where I am going with my sermon.
The sermon is "Deeply Moved" as Jesus was most evidently deeply moved in this reading. Finding the "tiger" for us as preachers is to try to figure out just what it was he was deeply moved about. I believe there does not need to be any one answer to this. The event could be interpeted a number of ways to get at issues in our own congregations and denominations today.
I am looking for a couple of true stories, one about people being the church outside the four walls of the church and another about loving our own familly of faith.
Call to Worship
L: The Cross is ever before us as we travel with Jesus on his final journey to Jerusalem.
P: In the temple Jesus was deeply moved for the people were being cheated.
L: As we worship today not in Jerusalem, but in Tomahawk may we not cheat each other with our narrow minded idea of who God loves
P: But may we worship in Spirit and in Truth.
Prayer of Confession O Jesus we confess that all too often we use this temple as a marketplace where we sell each other short, where we cheat each other of genuine Christ-like love, where things become more important than people and their needs. Like those in Jesus’ day who were confused regarding the temple; we too get the church building confused with your body, Dear Jesus, which is found not as four walls, but out on the streets and along dark and lonely roads where hurt and hungry people live.
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 22:09:22
I forgot to put my idetification on my contribution.
jmj in Wisconsin
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 23:19:49
Thank you for reminding us that religion is often an enemy of true faith. Thank you for pointing out how the desire for comfortable religion is so prevelant in our churchs and church systems. Clearly there is a zeal to protect the holiness of this site from threats. Clearly the very mention of the Jesus seminar sparked intense reaction. Many on this site do not feel we on this sight should acknowledge any authority of the Jesus Seminar. But why is it such a threat? Why would it be so disruptive of our orderly, religious sharing of ideas here, if occationally someone quoted things being said by the Jesus seminar?
Why would a few thoughts by Luke Timothy Johnson be more tolerable that ideas from Robert Funk or John Dominique Crossan. Why would they be regarded as trouble makers to this household? Would there ideas really be so distrptive that we must remove them from our presence?
What is the fear? Can we identify it? Surely it is not the case that we think anyone could steal Jesus away from us. Why would the presence of that body of thought be as disruptive to us today as Jesus was to the orderliness of the Temple in the days of old? There is a passion here but what is this passion? There is a struggle here but what is the struggle?
Someone suggested that in our churches there is often great effort spent in struggle for ownership of the religious system. Is that a central issue for us? Is that one of the ways understanding this passage may sead light on the critical concerns of our day?
Date: 20 Mar 2000
Time: 23:25:21
Did people cheer when Jesus drove the money changers out of the Temple? I'll bet many people did. Most people probably knew the noise, the smell and the business should have been kept outside the Temple. So why was Jesus action so intollerable? Was it indeed a struggle for ownership and control? Perhaps the questions about authority are right on target for this passage.
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 00:52:45
OFF TOPIC (Unless you see what is written as a cleansing of the temple of modernity):
To the anonymous poster who asked the question what is fear, what is the struggle, what is the passion:
Why not sign your name, you who speak so boldly against those who question the Jesus Seminar.
Why is it that when liberal icons are questioned, the psycho-babble begins. There are charges of fear, of loss of control, of anger.
Yet, let the enlightened question the Scriptures, and no longer is it fear that drives the questions but boldness?
Let the enlightened question the Scriptures and it is not anger that motivates but a desire for peace?
Let the enlightened question the Scriptures and it is not about a loss of control but about the gaining of knowledge?
The hypocrisy and the double standard is so evident one can taste it through the modem.
Jesus said that the Truth will set us free. In that statement is the implication that truth can be grasped, can be objectively defined and understood. And it begins with Christ being the Truth.
Jesus Himself had an extremely high view of Holy Writ. And He promised that the Holy Spirit would bring to mind His truths to His followers.
Questioning those who question the veracity of Scripture has nothing to do with fear and everything to do with trust. Trust in the written Word of God. Trust in the deceit of mankind.
You should know what trust is, you who dare not sign your name. It is the belief that something is worthy of your devotion, worthy of your confidence, worthy of your certainty, something you can take stock in, something you can believe, something you would die for.
For you o anonymous one, it is your intellect.
For me o ye who cannot identify yourself, it is the Word of God.
I fear no one but God almighty. I gave up control to He who has redeemed me. I have righteous anger against anyone prophesying falsely. My motive is the redemption of the lost and the proclamation of the truth that brings redemption.
What oh he who hides his identity is yours?
Rick in Va
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 01:00:23
Just a reminder concerning the body as the Temple of the Holy Spirit. When Paul first mentions it in I Cor. it is used in connection to the body of believers before it is connected to an individual's body.
Somehow I don't think Jesus nor the Gospel writers had in mind that Jesus' cleansing of the Temple had to do with the need for 20th century Christians to cleanse their bodies, become healthier. While some may be wary of the Jesus Seminar, I would also caution against interpretation of this passage by analogy.
John near Pittsburgh
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 01:16:41
I am aware of the danger of looking at this whole story as a metaphor - yet I think it has some authenticity as we begin to look at the Jerusalem Temple as a sign of the person (soma) as the temple of the Holy Spirit - what Jesus seeks to drive out are the afflictive emotions which destroy our relationships with God and our brothers and sisters. These emotions were given for a good purpose (oxen, sheep, dove) but they have become controling in their own right.
Just a few thoughts on the way toward Sunday.
tom in ga
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 02:38:15
I have enjoyed reading the insights of my colleagues on this sight over the past few months, but once again I am dismayed by the pettiness that is being exhibited this week over a comment about the Jesus seminar. Rick in VA's sarcastic little ode was the final straw. I find it hard to believe that Jesus would be proud or pleased by such antics. In some respects I think that Gamaliel's advice to the Sanhedrin when they were trying to figure out what to do with Peter is relevant here. If I remember correctly he told the Sanhedrin to leave him alone. If his preaching was not of God he wouldn't succeed and if it was from God then nothing they could do would be able to stop it. I guess I've gotten tired of wading through what appears to me to be self-righteous pettiness to find the pearls of wisdom on this board.
Souldoc
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 04:15:43
To Rick in VA
Please turn to your Bible in James 4:11-12. I have been gone from this site for sometime because of a long illness. It breaks my heart to see that after you have been lovingly accepted as a contributer after harsh and hurting remarks against people who do not have the same view point as yours that you are back at it again. This is a site for sermon prep, not to criticize others theological view point. Please, please use this site for that purpose, and use it with love. I for one will just be skipping any contributions you make and those who respond to you in order to not be driven from this very useful site.
TO OTHERS
Lets not let this kind of hurtful contributions discourage the many diverse view points. We need each other.
jmj in Wisconsin
jmj in Wisconsin
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 04:56:34
Welcome back jmj in Wisconsin! May God richly bless your continued healing, and be with you in your sojourn to wholeness. Good to have you back!
SueCan
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 12:08:52
Dear friends,
I can only say, "Amen!" to the most recent comments and requests for a more tolerant stance when it comes to our discussions on this site. I find it troubling that those of us who would like to exchange ideas and "think out loud" about some seemingly controversial topics are met with out-and-out hostility. The guidelines for posting herein make it fairly clear that we're to be sensitive to differing viewpoints, etc.
All in all, this site is enormously helpful to those of us who need to prepare sermons that "work." I'd hope that (perceived?) intolerance wouldn't get in the way of this process.
Judith in NH
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 12:22:50
jmj in Wisconsin,
I hope you are doing much better and I welcome you back. Thank you for the verse. I read it and then continued reading. James 5:19-20 struck home for me.
God's blessings,
Rick in Va
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 12:38:39
I like to se this as a multileveled Lenten text ( of course it was not wirtten just for Lent) What would Jesus turn over and clean up and drive out of our churches....that one seems easy for pontificating pastor's to get into . We like to piggyback jesus' anger and then get some things off of our chest. Be careful as you do...we are NOT Jesus! Still it is a fair question to ask what Jesus would do in our churches...
But let's push on....what would jesus do if Jesus came to our study or office? What would get turned over....shaken up and driven out ...what books would go...what things would stay...
And let's push on...what would happen if Jesus came to our Houses? What would have to go? What would get turned over and driven out?
Worship is forever tricky...we always get what we worship in and with confused with the ONE we worship...
Jesus was cleaning house...what would happen if Jesus came to our church...our study/office....our homes?
Isn't this a fair Lenten way of thinking as we approach calvary? What would get tossed?What needs to be driven out? What would we do in response to such a cleansing? Vance in NC
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 12:39:39
Again...I know Jesus would appreciate me using a capoital C on Calvary...was this a fruedian slip..I pray not Vance in NC
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 12:40:28
Again...I know Jesus would appreciate me using a capital C on Calvary...was this a Fruedian slip ?..I pray not Vance in NC
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 12:59:03
What is John trying to communicate by placing the cleansing of the Temple at the outset of Jesus' ministry? The synoptics recall this during the end of Jesus' ministry.
Any suggestions?
John near Pittsburgh
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 13:41:39
Friends,
Seems to me, that Christ has done a little cleansing of the temple right here on this website.
Having recently been through a very angry period in my parish, where a number of initiatives were overturned and factions and opinions were varied and diverse, I think I can say something about the way God cleanses his temple.
This event left the majority of the parish in turmoil and with a lot of anguish. Old systems were under threat, new systems were considered which left some people frightened and others exhiliarated.
What I have discovered in the wash-up however, is the extraordinary healing process and deeper intimacy that is slowly beginning to emerge among members of the parish. In some way the fire had to come so that the new life could begin. In some way the situation had to blow up, (however painful that might be) so that the landscape could change. After all this is how God creates and moulds his creation.
Dr M.Scott-Peck, speaks about creating community, in which to reach it, people have to arrive at emptiness. To reach a point where they have no answers, no glib responses or conditioned replies, and then, and only then they can re-establish the bond which builds community.
In the cleansing of the temple, Jesus effectively destroys the sacrificial system of relating to God. And you see, I believe that many Christians still operate in that kind of system. ie;"If I make sacrifices then God will bless me." "If I give up something or offer something to God, then I will get the reward."
I believe that what Jesus does in this text, sets the scene for what we will encounter in the passion and resurrection of Christ. I believe that is what Christ came for. He came to bring healing and total restoration of the human race, back to God. The temple was a figurative reminder of just how pathetic any attempt by us to do it really was. The cleansing of the temple is for me a turning point in the ministry of Christ, as he showed to his disciples that God operates through grace. What do we, or can we give in return.
Our parish, and myself, has learnt a valuable lesson in acknowledging our need to trust God, when we no longer have any answers ourselves. This is not easy, I can assure you, but it is necessary if we are to truly see the impact of the crucifixion and the resurrection, come Easter.
Thanks for the space to vent some thoughts.
Regards, KGB
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 14:14:49
To Rick in VA,
Re: the Jesus Seminar. Look at the people in the seminar. Rick ... they are Biblical scholars, they are serious thinkers, and they have the courage to use their God-given ability to think and struggle with Biblical issues.
We have the freedom to disagree with others thoughts ... but we shouldn't denigrate their academic credentials or make light of their ability to seriously engage Biblical issues.
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 15:32:58
Picture all the cows and sheep standing around in the courtyard. The sights and smells must have been incredible! There were lots of piles here and there. Some of it that laid around and didn't get cleaned up must have smelled pretty bad. We have lots of issues here in this discussion, some of which are very old and quite frankly stink. When we think of Jesus driving out the money changers, are we not continuing the discussion of last week, this world or eternity? Look at the Scriptures here, we have a powerful message of Jesus whipping the cattle and overturning the tables. Pretty draumatic stuff. But then, one of my professors used to say "So What?" (Anyone else hear that at Grad School?) Critical thinking prompts me to examine the Scripture more fully. Are we not to exhort and challenge one another? PSinIowa
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 15:33:36
Picture all the cows and sheep standing around in the courtyard. The sights and smells must have been incredible! There were lots of piles here and there. Some of it that laid around and didn't get cleaned up must have smelled pretty bad. We have lots of issues here in this discussion, some of which are very old and quite frankly stink. When we think of Jesus driving out the money changers, are we not continuing the discussion of last week, this world or eternity? Look at the Scriptures here, we have a powerful message of Jesus whipping the cattle and overturning the tables. Pretty draumatic stuff. But then, one of my professors used to say "So What?" (Anyone else hear that at Grad School?) Critical thinking prompts me to examine the Scripture more fully. Are we not to exhort and challenge one another? PSinIowa
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 15:55:29
Just a quick thought on the different placement of the cleansing stories.
I recently heard a Messianic Jew preach that both are correct, that Jesus in John cleanses the outer court of the temple at the beginning of his ministry, and the inner court in the synoptics at the end of his ministry, and then as he is crucified, finally rends the curtain between us and the Holy of Holies.
This preacher compared these steps with the process of justification and sanctification and finally our new life in the Kingdom.
Interesting to hear from a Messianic point of view concerning the Temple.
A personal word. Friends, I have strong opinions and am an evangelical conservative. I attended a very liberal seminary -CRDS- and find that I need to hear a variety of opinions and voices to fill out my theology. This doesn't dilute my faith but informs and strengthens it. My late father used to call for my sisters and I to disagree withour being disagreeable. Trite, perhaps, but let's love oneanother and speak the truth we have in LOVE. I enjoy the jousting and wrestling here - it should be a safe place to question and try things out so our mutual service of our God is strengthened.
I think we need eachother.
Thanks for the forum and I hope your friendship.
The New York Sheepdog
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 16:41:24
The first lesson for this Sunday is God's giving of the Ten Commandments to Moses and the people. There are a lot of people who believe that simply desplaying them in public will "cure" society's ills. (Courtrooms, classrooms...) The display will make us a more moral people? Weren't the Ten Commandments in the temple that Jesus cleansed? I wonder if that tells us that it isn't what we put in the room but what we leave the room with that ultimately counts? Maybe we need to live them and have them on our hearts. Wow, now there is a concept. Our lives reflect our beliefs. Revlunn in Hawaii
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 16:41:34
Steve in Orange - Thank you for your long entry. I just took the time to read it and it has some good images - faith versus religion. I have been thinking about this passage deliniating "holy" from "profane." I need to go. MOre later. Jude in Wash.
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 18:16:28
OFF TOPIC (again... liberal use of scroll key suggested, especially for you thin-skinned but ever so tolerant amongst us)
To call members of the Jesus Seminar scholars is to do an injustice to the word (aren't some of you deeply interested in justice issues?).
I would rather call them deconstructionists or perhaps revisionists but certainly not scholars. Scholars are, as I understand it, those who are under instruction or are attempting to learn from a given truth. These folks seem to instead be revising, re-interpreting, or re-constructing truth to fit their own prejudiced perspectives.
As far as attempting to learn something from the Jesus Seminar, I guess that would depend on what it is one is attempting to learn. I certainly don't recommend them as vehicles to learn anything about Christ or His ways but perhaps one could learn from them methods, procedures and techniques to discern truth.
For example, we could decide by lot or colored beads (the preferred method as I understand it would be the beads) who it is that we get to listen to or read here on the DPS.
Those of us who garnish enough of the right colored beads would be the most respected, those of us who don't would be the least respected. This of course would be deemed high scholarship and could not in any way be objected to, after all that would be intolerant.
Ahh... As we continue to redefine words, one wonders how we will communicate in the coming years.
With great difficulty I presume.
Rick in Va
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 18:36:46
I just read Monday's posting by Steve of Orange. It is very eloquent writing with a powerful message. Thank you. Your contrast of faith and religion is helpful.
The target of Jesus efforts was the "substatutionary atonement theory". Now that's heavy theology. I'll have to reflect on that a while. What does it mean that Jesus challenges our religious monitary system, our religious system of book keeping (or keeping score)? Thanks. Manzel
Date: 21 Mar 2000
Time: 21:16:42
I have a good friend whose house was underwater during last summers floods in North Carolina. It was a very traumatic event for him and his family. Family picture albums were ruined, as were many other family heirlooms. His family had a nice family room with a big tv, a vcr, etc. Both of their cars were totalled due to water damage. Just months before the flood, they spent $$$ on landscaping work which all washed away. He tells the story of being in shock the days following the receding of the water, as he looked over the devastation. The insurance agent told him and his wife that much of their property was covered, which brought some relief, but then the agent said, "What do you need right now to start to get your life going again?" A rather simple question coming from an agent who he believes was trying to be compassionate.
My friend says that for a few moments he and his wife were speechless. "What do they need to get by?" "What do they need to get their life going?" His wife turned to the agent and said "My children and husband are here, for the first time in years, I have never felt so alive."
Why is it that we wait for the trajedy to value our lives? Why is it we wait for the illness to take better care of our health? Why is it we wait for the "cleaning of the temple" to realize how far we have journeyed from embracing the "abundant life" that Jesus brings?
+ Taber in CO
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 03:00:06
2:20 The Jews then said, "This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?"
What do you make of the fact that there are 46 days in Lent when you count all the Sundays and all of Holy Week from March 8 to April 22?
What does this mean?
tom in ga
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 03:28:58
means nothing, tom
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 03:30:32
nothing at all.
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 05:57:11
I appreciate the dialogue and shared consciousness as preachers. God bless you all! The word that popped up for me was "Stop making my Father's house a market place!" The reality that we as an American society have replaced our Spiritual call to care for each other and our environment, to living our lives for our "market driven economy"... watching stocks go up and down... looking out for A#1, the unholy trinity: me, myself and I... Jesus warned us about worshiping Mammon... wealth... he was tempted 3 x's at the beginning of his ministry by Satan..to be sensational, to be wealthy & bow to anit-God, to test God,... our society has already made the "market place" its God. Peace- - new kid on the block- Pastor Gumby, NJ
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 13:09:33
From www.SermonIllustrations.com, March, 2000:
Money Changers have always been in the church. It was a shock in 1965 when Professor Thomas Altizer of Emory University, a man from within the church, expounded his God is dead theology in the “New York Times.” More recently, seminary professors at the so-called “Jesus Seminar” attacked the nature of Jesus. Luther, in the sixteenth century, saw the evil of the church in the monopolistic hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church. The evil was not from the government, but from within the church itself. In our text for this morning, we read that the ones who were trading and selling in the temple were the scribes and Pharisees--the religious leaders of the day.
That modern man is searching for spirituality is evident. The circulation of evangelistic magazines, which sold a modest 1 million copies per year back in the 1960's, has soared to past 12 million in sales in the 1990's. People are searching for spirituality, but many feel that they cannot find it in the walls of the church. The 20th century church seems to lack the vitality of the New Testament church, a church that started off in 33 A. D. with twelve members and by the end of the first century had brought over a half million people under the banner of Christendom. It was a church of growth and vitality. Today are the money changers still here robbing us of our energy and diverting us of our true purpose?
Rick in Va
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 13:17:19
And one more from http://www.SermonIllustrations.com:
Another set of “money-changers” in the church is that man seems to have lost his reason for forgiveness. Catholic priests have expressed concern over the sharp decline in the number of people desiring to take confession. We hear a lot of talk about the word celebration in our church today. There can be no celebration until there is first confession. In the parable of the prodigal son, the banquet does not occur until the boy had first come to himself.
A Sunday School class in a church once made an unusual request one day. They requested that the prayer of confession be taken out of the order of worship. They gave the following reasons:
1. Confessions imply that we are bad people. 2. Our children will get a negative image of themselves. 3. Guilt is damaging; we need to think positively. 4. Worship should always be uplifting and make us feel good.
This sounds like the philosophy advocated by that book some years ago "I'm OK you're OK." Tell me then. If I'm OK and you're OK then what are we doing here? The refusal to acknowledge that we are sinful people is damaging the church today, and it is damage that is coming from within, not from without. We have bought in to the modern culture that we should have a positive self-image through positive thinking. Friends, sin is real, and it is too destructive to ignore. The cross reminds us just how serious our sin is. The failure to express our sin before God and one another devalues God's redemptive grace. It is not positive thinking that will remove our guilt; it is God's redemptive action.
Rick in Va
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 14:08:09
Steve in Orange - You say Jesus came to overturn the tables of our religion and I think you're right.
John Near Pitts - You asked the question of a connection with this text and hindering or preventing people from worshipping God. YES - I think there is
Dear Friends - It seems like this text hearkens back to the words from Genesis 4 -- "Now Able was a keeper of sheep and Cain a tiller of the ground. In the course of time, Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel, for his part, brought the firstlings of his flock, their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain became angry and his countenance fell. The Lord said to Cain, 'why are you so angry, and why has your countenance fallen? if you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door, its desire is for you, but you must master it"
The problem with Cain's offering is that he did not give it from his heart - his motivation was simply to go through the motions of giving the offering.
It was common place for these traders to be in the "court of the Gentiles" as a 'convenience' so that folks would not have to drag a sheep from their own fold or a cow from their own herd -- all the way to the temple. And this is Passover time, so it was the practice to pilgrim to the temple - offer sacrifice and then return home. But how heartfelt is it if you simply (as one poster put it) make a 'transaction' and simply go through the motions. And I'm sure these animals were not, shall we say, the cream of the crop. . . they were there for a reason. So the offering that was brought before the Lord was simply a duty. Those who used this convenience had lost sight of the "process" which takes place if we choose to bring our own offering - which sheep shall we take? Which cow can we 'afford' to sacrifice. Many times the removal of one sheep from the fold would disturb the fold for some time. Would we take our best sheep or the one that was nearing its last days -- if we undergo a 'transaction' at the temple, it would seem the one bringing the offering would aviod all this chain of thought. And the "faithful" action (Steve) would be turned into a religious "ritual" that held precious little meaning at all. Here is where I see the connection that John near Pitts was looking for. . . The money-changer, cattle-trading, sheep-providing marketplace was snuffing out FAITH and replacing it with watered down religious rituals that became meaningless over time.
So. . . my question is, for how many of our people (or ourselves) is our Sunday morning worship a 'watered down religious ritual' that has precious little to do with having as LP IN PA put it "Zeal for the Lord of the house"? The draw in this text for me as they say - goes to motive.
Hope this helps. L I L
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 14:23:15
Dear friends - It would seem that Jesus overturning the tables at the beginning of the Gospel of John sets the tone for what Jesus ministry means according to John's account, which, in my opinion is removing the barriers between God and God's people. John has Jesus begin his ministry here, right after the sign at the wedding in Cana and throughout the Gospel of John it seems that the Jesus who overturned the tables and drove out the 'both the sheep and the cattle' becomes the sacrifice himself. -- Remember just a few weeks ago "Rend your hearts and not your clothing".
Some random thoughts - hope it helps. L I L
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 14:23:55
Dear friends - It would seem that Jesus overturning the tables at the beginning of the Gospel of John sets the tone for what Jesus ministry means according to John's account, which, in my opinion is removing the barriers between God and God's people. John has Jesus begin his ministry here, right after the sign at the wedding in Cana and throughout the Gospel of John it seems that the Jesus who overturned the tables and drove out the 'both the sheep and the cattle' becomes the sacrifice himself. -- Remember just a few weeks ago "Rend your hearts and not your clothing".
Some random thoughts - hope it helps. L I L
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 19:22:01
This week's text gives us much to think about, even as clergy. Joseph Caiaphas, High Priest, is upset because the sellers of sacrificial animals and the money changers on the Mount of Olives has given room for the Sanhedrin to meet. So he lets into the Temple another groups of sellers and money changers. This is the place where people are supposed to be worshipping with sacrifices, prayers and singing. It is the place where people are supposed to "GET CONNECTED" to God. We might consider how people "get connected" to God today. Are there some things in worship which hinder the connection? Perhaps a sermon where people just don't get the point, or a sermon which has no point at all? Perhaps this is an excellent Sunday to get in touch with "true worship - worship in Spirit"! I am going to title my sermon, "Getting Connected to God". People in our pews get connected to God through prayer, singing, and the scripture. Perhaps there are other things. I think this is what Jesus was concerned about. Jesus is our connection to God. Something to think about! Philip in Ohio
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 22:00:55
A few thoughts from a different angle, namely the moneychangers & animal sellers: (1) WHO'S GONNA CLEAN UP THIS MESS?? and (2) Was it "business as usual?" after Jesus & the disciples left the Temple?
Thanks for all the discussion, thoughts, provocation! Blessings to all as we continue to look at overturned tables, cowtails & feather's a'flying!
seminary steph, CA
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 22:01:08
A few thoughts from a different angle, namely the moneychangers & animal sellers: (1) WHO'S GONNA CLEAN UP THIS MESS?? and (2) Was it "business as usual?" after Jesus & the disciples left the Temple?
Thanks for all the discussion, thoughts, provocation! Blessings to all as we continue to look at overturned tables, cowtails & feather's a'flying!
seminary steph, CA
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 23:05:52
Forty-six days in Lent? Sundays are not counted because Sunday is never a fast day, always a feast day, a "little" Easter. Midwest Trivia Hunter
Date: 22 Mar 2000
Time: 23:38:14
OFF TOPIC (MAYBE)- I find this site invaluable. Most of you guys are from the USA, which I'm not (a Scot working in Australia). Sometimes you quote writers, and these quotes are often terrific. I have no idea who these people are, though. Barbara Brown Taylor figures often, for example. Today Rick in VA mentions 1965 views of Altizer (of Emory Uni - where's Emory, I wonder). Can any of you recommend a book - a dictionary of American religious writers, perhaps, that would tell a bit about these people, and let us non Americans into this world of superb comment. John in Oz
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 00:05:59
I'm looking for a copy of the picture of Jesus with the whip raised over his head. Any one know where I can get this? The title of my sermon is "A Most Troubling Picture". Email me at boomdr@aol.com or post it. Thanks. Good preaching. David
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 00:36:19
In Jesus' day people were forced to buy animals in the temple courts so they could offer sacrifices to God for the forgiveness of sins. In order to buy these animals, they had to change their money into temple dollars to pay the high market price. They could go to the local corner store and find a bargarin. Jesus was angry that "the church" cheated the people and made money from people's fear and devotion.
In what way does the church continue to hold people ramson? In what way do we put guilt upon our people? What interferrs with our worshipping God? T.V., hockey practices, swimming lessons? We can even take it another step and see where the church needs to be "turn over" and shake up its proirites. HOw does the church, and how do we, block our relationship with God? What needs are NOT being met when we gather in corporate worship? How have we sold ourselves when can't find time each day to pray?
A friend came up with the following questions arising from this text: If you compare your spiritaul life to the rooms of a house, which room do you think Jesus might want to clean up? 1. Library - the reading room? 2. Dining room - appetites, desries? 3. Wroship - where you keep your gifts, skills, and talents? 4. Recreation room - where you hang out after work? 5. Family room - where most of your relationsihps are lived out? 6. Closet -where your hang-ups are?
Just thinking out loud. Rev.WWM in Canada
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 00:37:39
Whoops.
THat's... they could NOT go to the corner store.... Rev WWM
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 03:35:08
To David looking for a picture of this gospel scene:
I had the same idea, but I've given up looking. Instead, I'm simply going to start my sermon talking about stained glass windows -- how beautiful they are, how they often so aptly paint an image of various Bible passages. I might look to the ones in our sanctuary, and then say, "But I've never seen a stained-glass depiction of today's gospel!" Why? Because we're uncomfortable with the image, and the idea, for that matter, of an enraged Jesus. My title: "Holy Outrage"
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 03:35:30
To David looking for a picture of this gospel scene:
I had the same idea, but I've given up looking. Instead, I'm simply going to start my sermon talking about stained glass windows -- how beautiful they are, how they often so aptly paint an image of various Bible passages. I might look to the ones in our sanctuary, and then say, "But I've never seen a stained-glass depiction of today's gospel!" Why? Because we're uncomfortable with the image, and the idea, for that matter, of an enraged Jesus. My title: "Holy Outrage"
John in VA
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 04:02:15
I spoke too soon! Artwork depicting this gospel scene can be found at the following site: http://www.textweek.com/art/temple_cleansing.htm (you may have to put a lower case "L" at the end of that address) John in VA
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 04:33:39
Nice. That was how the weekend would be. And it was, really. Nice, a very nice experience. For most, meaningful and deep and spiritually nourishing. Yet, all in all, even if one did not discover a deep sojourn of faith, the weekend retreat, if one experienced no other truth, was at least, nice. Even if one missed the pain, the real life born out of experiential suffering which was shared in story after story, even if one missed all of that, and some did, at least it would be nice.
That is how many experienced her presence, quiet and gentle, welcoming each in the caress of her smile, yet not saying more than was necessary, not really standing out, except of course, but for a bit deeper hue of skin in this sea of ivory … "she is nice," more than one would think. And she was. Angel was that and more. Embracing each in her sparkling eyes which seemed to say, "It's okay. Everything is okay. You're safe with me." The beauty of her presence flowed into the room, reflecting the truth of her name … Angel. God's angel, proclaiming joy in the serenity of her spirit, speaking hope in the soft silence of her soul.
So, it was with some small shock for many in that room, when amidst the singing, amidst the smiles of those who had done it all before, she approached the microphone. She stood patiently waiting for each to settle back into their seat, waiting that each might be prepared to receive her story. The chairs squeaked for a few moments, the strain of metal on plastic sat in too many times, and then with the soft rustling sound of paper and the nervous tap of pens slowly fading, she began. "I am here to tell you about Christian Leaders." And then, over the next twenty-five minutes, twenty-five joyous and uplifting minutes, she did tell us about Christian leaders. She spoke about the life of her father, a kindly and obedient man living a life of strength and faith in the midst of the chaos of life. And then, through tears of joy and pride, she spoke of her son, her son who is mentally challenged, her son who each and every day, faces the world from a point of mental and physical brokeness, yet, who faces the world embraced by God's love and empowered by God's Spirit. The power of her words washed over us, bringing tears to our eyes and a catch in our throats. The tale of his life of suffering and God's promise of hope implored us to see the mystery anew, urged us to a greater truth. Deeper and deeper we went. Higher and higher we soared. And then, as we sat with bated breath and pounding hearts, Angel affirmed, "My son … my son is a true Christian Leader."
She then paused, for a long moment, listening, listening to a voice which we could not hear, listening to the voice of God. No one moved. We sat in silence not knowing what to expect. Slowly, she began, "I have never shared this before, not with anyone. When I was a small child, my family was a family of farmers. And as it was with many farmers, we had come to that time when a pig would be slaughtered. They would boil the pig in a large vat. As it boiled, they would skim the grease into canisters which were set aside to cool. At two years of age, I was a very inquisitive child. I wanted to retrieve something from a counter but found that I could not reach it. Seeing one of the canisters, I decided to drag it to the edge of the counter. Instead, I pulled in over onto myself, pouring the hot burning grease over my small body."
And then, she broke down into deep, wrenching sobs. She seemed unable to proceed, each sob being following by another, until one by one, the folks who had been sitting at her table, moved around her, placing their hands on her, surrounding her with the strength of their presence. After long moments, she painfully continued, "My father rushed me to Duke Medical Center. There they told him that I had third degree burns over much of my body. They didn't expect me to live. And because they didn't expect me to live, they told him to take me home, for there was no use is filling a bed with someone who was to die."
"So my father did take me home. But each day, each day he would make the two hour journey to Duke so that my bandages could be changed. He carried me to and from Duke. He didn't put me down for the next thirty days. I didn't die, and by and by, I began to get better, until one day the doctors told my father that I would need skin grafts. My father said, 'Well, that's real good. You just do what you have to do and we'll continue to love our baby back to health.' And they did, my family did love me back to health."
And then, Angel sobbed. She sobbed through the deep pain of physical suffering. She sobbed through the deep pain of scalding grease and seared flesh. She sobbed through the countless hours of torturous baths to remove the deadened skin, through the nightmare of scrubbing brushes so that new skin might once again live. But most of all, she sobbed because a two year old girl had been refused treatment, not because she would die, but simply because her skin was of a deeper hue.
The tables were overturned, the temple was cleared. Only truth remained. We, the good and decent white folks, the self-righteous and pride-filled healers, had sent her away to sure destruction. With our voice of silent acquiesence, we had sent her away only to find that she would not die, but would be raised in life through the power of love, by the power of God. And from a temple which could never be built by the hands of men, Angel, with tears in her eyes, and a voice broken by sobs, choked out her last sentence. "My brothers and sisters, God loves you and so do I."
Shalom my friends,
Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 04:51:26
My fellow sojourners, Thank you for you energetic discussion and embrace of one another through our individual uniqueness and collective commonality. Truly, we are the body.
jmj,
Ahhhh, I have missed your voice my friend. I am glad that you are back, but more, that you are able to say, "after a long illness." I will be in Cedarburg, WI, this weekend in order to preach and provide a missions presentation. Is this near you? I hope so. Please drop me a line at: rccandcc@carolina.net
Steve in Orange, Thank you for your powerful and beautiful words, my friend.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 07:29:30
I'm not sure where I'm going to go with this text ... I've been thinking about this Sunday's lessons for a couple of weeks looking forward to preaching in the context of a visit to a former parish as guest presider and preacher. The one thought that keeps recurring to me is that the sellers of livestock and the money changers were not actually doing anything _illegal_. In fact, what they were doing was very much within the Law; they were making it possible for those who came to offer sacrifice to do so with the proper unblemished animals or with the proper coin (Roman money couldn't be used as an offering in the Temple.) So, when this lesson is read in conjunction with the giving of the Law, it seems to me that one conclusion to be drawn is that not all transgression is necessarily unlawful. One's behavior may be within the law and still be unacceptable. Has the behavior of the church (as institution) become like that of the Temple authorities -- acceptable under the Law but unacceptable to the Lord?
Eric from KS
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 13:19:44
In the place where Gentile converts to Judaism were to worship God, where they were to engage in prayer, we hear in the background the noise of a busy marketplace (even louder than the folks in the sanctuary prior to a Sunday service.) Not only that, but in the place where they were to love and worship the God who demanded justice and mercy some were out-right cheating others, ripping off the folks who'd travelled pretty far to get to the Temple. I imagine it would be pretty hard to worship in such a setting. I imagine that Jesus was upset at the injustice going on as well as the disturbing of people in prayer and worship.
In terms of Temple cleansing. I haven't run into much support for there being two cleansings, especially given the nature of John's Gospel who is concerned with conveying the TRUTH behind Jesus' actions and not writing a travel-log.
In his exegesis of this passage Dr. Bruce Schuchard at Concordia Seminary makes a case for John saying that the "Tabernacle or Tent pitched among us" in John's prologue is further expressed by Jesus' cleansing of the Temple. In a sense John is saying: Jesus is the new Temple!
You can find Dr. Schuchard's exegesis at http://www.csl.edu/Lection.htm You can listen via mpeg or realaudio.
John near Pitts.
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 14:35:23
This is my first contribution to the lectionary discussion. I enjoy this site so much. Something Martin Luther King, Jr. said seems appropriate for the text. He said, “our choice is chaos or community.” In the chaotic scene of the exploitation of fellow worshippers Jesus was involved in making possible true community. Was he calling attention to the truth that our fellow man is not to be seen as someone against whom we compete and exploit (ethnic pride, racial pride, religious pride) but rather someone to be embraced. Then there can be community.
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 14:37:18
Sorry I forgot to attach my name: Ron Houston-Sunshine Baptist Church, Springfield, Mo.
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 16:08:14
Some thoughts on the MARKETPLACE (which is specific to John's version of the story):
How does the Church today present the Gospel - “in the marketplace”or “as a marketplace” ??? What would today's Church advise Jesus to do? Some may advocate wearing sandwich-boards and proclaiming the Gospel, trying to shout louder than the others. Others may advise to find a little niche, offering a cup of tea and just being there, vaguely hoping that even if we're not doing anything directly, our presence will somehow make a difference.
DW in Northumberland/UK
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 17:25:02
As a student pastor I am new to this site and I would like to thank all of you who provide thoughtful reflections and invitations to deeper insight about God's light for our world. I would particularly like to thank Judith in NH, Steve in Orange, and jmj in Wisconsin for your contributions.
To Nail-Bender in NC: I have only had the great joy of reading a few of your contributions but I recognized your style immediately! God has blessed you will a truly exceptional gift. I would add my voice to the many who have recommended that your work be published. May God continue to bless your artistry with words with continued revelation.
In regards to the Jesus Seminar, I noticed that the first reference points to the "BOLD JESUS" presented in the gospel of John IN CONTRAST to the the image of Jesus "caught in the tragic unfolding of history" as presented by Albert Sweitzer. I can't help wondering if this point was missed in the rush of conflicting views that followed about the Jesus Seminar.
To David,
The picture you are seeking of Jesus holding the whip above his head can be found at
www.cts.edu/FacHomePages/imagelibrary/Ministry_of_christ.htm
DNSR
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 17:30:59
We have talked a lot about the cleansing of the temple, and what Jesus did, and the Jesus Seminar, and what that means for many of us.
However, we have not talked much about Christ's statement about "raising this temple in three days."
What does this say? Especially for a Gospel that was written after the destruction of the temple, for a people that were left without a dwelling place for God.
Jesus comes to tell them and US that God is here. Jesus comes to say, "I am God..." The temple where you say God dwells is me.
John Stevens in Oregon
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 18:28:29
Nail-Bender--- Such a powerful, moving story. Thank you. You have such a beautiful way of putting a contemporary human face on the Good News. Blessings, Steve in Orange
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 20:19:35
Misc. thoughts - anyone help me put them together?
1. To augment some previous info: there are major justice/oppression issues going on here. Worshipers would bring their best unblemished livestock to the temple, only to be told by officials (if the sacrifice arrived alive)that it was blemished. Then they'd have to trade their money for temple money (at an unfair exchange rate)in order to buy an overpriced animal. See the triple economic whammy?
2. Is it an intentional literary distinction that Jesus "drove out" the sheep and cattle (well-to-do persons' sacrifices), and told those who were selling doves (poor persons' sacrifices) to get out and stop making the temple a marketplace?
3. Jesus is drawing a line right here at the beginning of his public ministry, inviting trouble by his actions, then daring the officials to discover who he really is in v. 19 ("destroy this temple..."). Perhaps life shaped by the cross will always get us in trouble up front, but will always lead to resurrection ("raise it up in3 days")? Perhaps our sermon this week could take the form of a dare, since that's the form of this text?
4. Thanks for the image of what was lying around on the ground. this text is so full of possibilities for just making it real. How about how Jesus' hands must have been shaking in anger as he braided that whip? The look on the disciples' faces as they watched him work with the leather, wondering what he was up to? The wide-eyed cows trotting across the courtyard, the flurry of feathers, the clatter of coins crashing onto the pavement (anyone remember what the floor was made of? Jerusalem stone, probably?)....
I've been gone a while (move to Associate position meaning less preaching, and maternity leave!). Good to be back and see contributions from old and new friends! Kay
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 20:26:40
I couldn't even get to the end of the page before feeling compelled to say SOMETHING!
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 20:38:04
Amusingly, in my effor to say SOMETHING, I indadvertanly said nothing before hitting the submit button. Sorry about that.
I come here frequently and usually desperate. I don't often contribute, but am usually greatly blessed by the discussion and the diversity of beliefs. However, to suggest that the Jesus Seminar has anything even remotely to do with scholarship or the Christian faith is beyond my ability to comprehend. The purpose of having an open mind is to let new ideas in, not to let one's brain fall out. It is, I believe, self evident that the Jesus Seminar folks are engaged in something other than Christian scholarship. At its best it is folly.
RevJRU Moorpark, CA
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 23:53:07
Brothers and Sisters- I am new to this site, but found it interesting to scroll through the comments to date on Jn.2. Two interesting things appear to be happening. In thinking about the Temple cleansing, I first wonder what this episode in the life of Jesus has to tell us about God. More specifically, in light of loving God and loving our neighbor, what does this tell us about loving as Jesus loved? This seems particularly relevant in our age of "tolerance." Is there a time and place for turning over the tables? Indeed, taking whip in hand? While the answer seems to be yes, I wonder under what circumstances!! By way of illustration, I read with interest the divergent points of view as they address the now infamous Jesus Seminar. In light of how they go about their business, might Jesus overturn their tables? Is an attack on the Word reason enough? In fine, when does toleration become capitulation? Did Jesus ever capitulate to anything other than the Word? Here, Jesus takes a stand - how about us??
Date: 23 Mar 2000
Time: 23:59:18
Brothers and Sisters- Forgive me for forgetting to attach my name to my comment. I'm new here. Clark in W.PA.
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 00:14:50
Thank you to everyone for your contributions.
John near Pitts...I think that the cleansing of the temple early in John has a couple of exegetical points.
Number one is that the Johanine author has a high Christology that has been present since the opening verse (en archen hon ho logos - In the beginning was the Word). John has no problem with showing that Jesus is the Son of God, he is going to do great things, and it starts right at the beginning.
Number two, the issue of the temple will become paramount throughout the Gospel, next taking center stage in the dialogue with the woman at the well in chapter 4 (who acknowledged that the Jews worshipped only in Jerusalem, the locale of the temple, while Jesus breaks the model that has the temple as the center of worship). The use of the temple in chapter 2 forbodes what is to come.
Number 3 has been well discussed, that being that the true temple is not a building but Christ, and we are called from the start of John's gospel to worship Christ and not a building.
Just a few thoughts. Keep the great dialogue going!!!
Clint in Pittsburgh
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 02:03:32
Let's get this right ladies and gentlemen. The real Temple sellers were out on the Mount of Olives where they belonged. It was Joseph Caiaphas' idea to bring in a renagade group into the Court of the Gentiles where the people were to make sacrifices, sing and pray. Jesus was upset with the corruption, not with the sacrifices. Philip in Ohio
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 03:15:00
Brothers and sisters, I come here quite often to listen to your insighful thoughts about Scripture. I am always enlightened, encouraged, empowered, and sometimes annoyed. Nonetheless, this is a very worthwile sight and I appreciate all of you.
I used to go to some of the Christian chat rooms but I stopped because it seemed that all they wanted to do was argue, generally about Scripture interpretation. As I come in here this week, I hear the "argument" about the Jesus Seminar. My thoughts about this may seem shallow and meaningles to you BUT, I think that we should all be tolerant and non-judgmental when it comes to other peoples beliefs and opinions. We are ALL part of the body of Christ. Each of us has a purpose and worth. None of us are more imortant than the other.
I'm sure that there are others like me who come here and don't contribute very much. For me, maybe it's lack of confidence among such deep, interesting and thought-provoking entries. I really like it here. Please don't ruin it for me and others like me with petty differences. Thank you and may God bless you all beyond your wildest imaginations!
If anyone is interested, my sermon will be about "Getting Our House In Order." It's time to clean out our closets rather than just come out of them (thanks to Carman for that thought). Blessings! Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 03:56:40
Kay my friend!
Wonderful to "hear" your voice.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 04:31:48
My plan is to focus on the "whys" of worship. What is the purpose of worship. What it means to have a relationship with the living Temple... Jesus Christ. I have just completed the first two days of interviews as a member of the Division of Elders. AGain I am struck with the enthusiasm of our newer pastors in the Conference. It has helped me to reflect on the person of Jesus Christ that I worship and the why I believe God called me into ordained ministry. I want the congregation to understand why we worship and cleanse our inner temple of anything that clutters or gets in the way of worship. RevD in BG
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 06:25:09
A few questions & comments about this passage:
1) Why this particular year to get angry? Jesus had presumably been going to passover many years before this particular one. Why now? Where did these cords come from? Did Jesus come prepared?
2) I wonder if even half of the people in the temple that day knew anything was happening. I keep envisioning how large the temple was and how many people must have been crushed inside.
3) Please help with this. What were the charges that got Jesus crucified? Was this the eye-opening incident that identified Jesus as a threat? Was this then a necessary act to procure our salvation?
rhd3 in Indiana (first time post)
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 10:54:33
Does anyone know of a site for a really good diagram of the Temple, which might be blown up to show the area Jesus "cleansed?" It seems important to explain the where and why of Jesus getting angry to justify the incident. (Cheating of the people, especially the converts to Judism.)
We need to keep in mind that in John's day writing was not always done in chronological order, but in order of importance to the author. Hense, we have different placement of the cleansing, at the beginning of the Gospel of John, not necessarily at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus.(As in the other Gospels) We must keep in mind the context of the writing, and not assume it was written in our modern style. For example, when I tell of a vacation, I tell the highlights first, not necessarily in order of occurance. revup
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 13:18:14
Mark in Ill,
First, thanks for posting. The more folks participate in this forum, the better the forum will be.
Understand that you've made a judgment call when you label something as "petty differences". That can be deemed as intolerant using today's definition of the word.
And to "Get Our House in Order", again one must make judgments as to what is out of order.
So, please, before you belittle something as petty, before you label someone as being intolerant, understand that the word today can be used by anybody to squelch disagreement, and in fact, I would venture to say that this is exactly what the word is used for today.
It is hypocritical, is it not, to be intolerant while charging intolerance, to be judgmental when accusing someone of being judgmental?
Doesn't it show how inane these words have really become and how their use is really meant to shut somebody up?
Rick in Va
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 14:46:18
The animal sacrifices in the Temple for the removal of sin and stain were prescribed by Jewish Law; and yet this same Law was responsible for naming "sin" thus trapping human life in revolving door of sin and atonment, sin and atonement, etc. Only through Christ does this revolving door come to an end as the Word made flesh frees us from the sacred slaughterhouse of human suffering and tragedy.
tom in ga
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 14:56:33
Philip in Ohio, thanks for your helpful info. I'm not familiar with this part of the story. Can you give more details? And can you give the (a?) source of the info so I can access it myself for further study?
All: whatever happened to our old practice of taking non-lectionary related subjects over to another discussion (theology?) board? That seemed to work well for a while.
Nail-Bender: same to you!
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 15:38:26
I found this site just last week and it is a breath of fresh air!
This is my first posting but I hope to become a regular participant. I am especially appreciative of "Steve in Orange" this week. His comments will be the basis of this week's sermon, titled, "Why Does He Care So Much?" Answer: Because God desires us to be people of genuine and mature faithfulness and not people who are merely "religious."
I will also include something I just got from a friend in California, "God Chose You: If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If God had a wallet, your photo would be in it. God sends us flowers every spring and a sunrise every morning. When you want to talk, God listens. God can live anywhere in the universe but has chosen your heart. -- And that Christmas gift God sends you... WOW. Face it friend, God is crazy about you."
And my thought about the Jesus Seminar discussion -- If someone finds the Jesus Seminar helpful, fine. If someone finds the Jesus Seminar lacking, fine. God is "crazy" about both! Let's move on.
JohnDeere in the Bluegrass
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 16:58:46
Rick in VA
First, thank you for responding to my comments. I tried as hard as I could to make them in love. And the only reason I responded was because of the hostility I was sensing. I'd like to think I was wrong about that.
It's ok with me if you want to label me a hypocrite, but I just kept thinking about the Apostle Paul telling us to "live at peace with one another." I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone, including you.
Lastly, I don't feel this is the place to have this discussion, so if you would like to discuss it further, here is my e-mail: mdoane@ccipost.net
Thanks again, and God's peace to you all.
Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 16:59:09
Rick in VA
First, thank you for responding to my comments. I tried as hard as I could to make them in love. And the only reason I responded was because of the hostility I was sensing. I'd like to think I was wrong about that.
It's ok with me if you want to label me a hypocrite, but I just kept thinking about the Apostle Paul telling us to "live at peace with one another." I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone, including you.
Lastly, I don't feel this is the place to have this discussion, so if you would like to discuss it further, here is my e-mail: mdoane@ccipost.net
Thanks again, and God's peace to you all.
Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 17:00:08
Rick in VA
First, thank you for responding to my comments. I tried as hard as I could to make them in love. And the only reason I responded was because of the hostility I was sensing. I'd like to think I was wrong about that.
It's ok with me if you want to label me a hypocrite, but I just kept thinking about the Apostle Paul telling us to "live at peace with one another." I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone, including you.
Lastly, I don't feel this is the place to have this discussion, so if you would like to discuss it further, here is my e-mail: mdoane@ccipost.net
Thanks again, and God's peace to you all.
Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 17:00:33
Rick in VA
First, thank you for responding to my comments. I tried as hard as I could to make them in love. And the only reason I responded was because of the hostility I was sensing. I'd like to think I was wrong about that.
It's ok with me if you want to label me a hypocrite, but I just kept thinking about the Apostle Paul telling us to "live at peace with one another." I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone, including you.
Lastly, I don't feel this is the place to have this discussion, so if you would like to discuss it further, here is my e-mail: mdoane@ccipost.net
Thanks again, and God's peace to you all.
Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 17:01:04
Rick in VA
First, thank you for responding to my comments. I tried as hard as I could to make them in love. And the only reason I responded was because of the hostility I was sensing. I'd like to think I was wrong about that.
It's ok with me if you want to label me a hypocrite, but I just kept thinking about the Apostle Paul telling us to "live at peace with one another." I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone, including you.
Lastly, I don't feel this is the place to have this discussion, so if you would like to discuss it further, here is my e-mail: mdoane@ccipost.net
Thanks again, and God's peace to you all.
Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 20:07:33
I don't know how to suggest this to all of us desperatos, but it would be great if we could move away from polemical debate and whether or not a preacher is orthodox or heretical. I know for one, who is in the catholic tradition, that it is a great sense of relief to proclaim the creed immediately following my homily as a way of correcting any error that was proclaimed in the search for truth!
tom in ga
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 20:23:49
Tom in Ga.- with tongue firmly planted in cheek I ask: "Truth contained in a creed?" How quaint. You can't win for losing. But hey -- Jesus made a whip and violently upset the order of things. He must have had a "truth" in mind. Is one person's truth just another person's poison? Or is there something to this Christian "stuff"?? Clark in W.PA.
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 21:38:03
Random musings on John 2-- As I looked at the moneychangers and the reason they were at the temple, it came to me that people entering the temple were moving on to foreign soil, somewhat like entering an embassy. Roman currency was not an acceptable offering to God. It had to be changed into the currency of God's chosen people.
If at this time the temple is God's representative location on earth, then Jesus is God's ambassador.
When Jesus transforms the concept of the temple from a literal building to his body as being temple, then those who follow Christ become Christ's ambassadors.
I'm not sure where these thoughts are taking me and what it says to us today about worshipping God. Just wanted to share the rumblings from the back of my brain.
CJT in Oklahoma
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 22:54:06
I need some help. I want to preach a three part sermon. First idea: Jesus protects the glory of the Temple. i.e. a place for God to dwell not be religious and prosper in this life. Second idea: God protects the testimony of Jesus atonment. i.e. ressurection proves Jesus sacrifice was accepted. Third: We protect the glory of God in our lives. i.e. we do not become "common" by over looking the ten commandments and clouding the glory of God for others to see. How can I better tie these things together?
Date: 24 Mar 2000
Time: 23:28:17
Three thoughts:
1. There are some ideas that we hold that must be turned upside down. We cannot modify them. We cannot patch them up. We need a total transformation.
2. Not only are there individual sins, but corporate sins -- or church sins. I could not help but think of the Pope's apology for church sins. In this time of Lent we need to think about where we have not been God's church.
3. Even as Christ sees the corruption in God's House, the joy and grace is that he was willing to be put to death for all of us who have tried to destroy the real temple and the very love of God.
Blessings to all and thank you for your insights, Pastor CarolLion
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 02:15:36
The more you examine this text, the clearer it is that this is not about someone pushing the hot button of Jesusand his knocking over the tables of baked good and the rummage sale. That is the obvious setting.... This is about who Jesus is, his authority. His word is powerful and for John this is the first PUBLIC sign...after the more PRIVATE wedding at Cana. Jesus is so sure of himself, nothing can touch him (like his walking through the angry crowd at the synagogue in Nazareth. He wraps himself in the authority, and walks through them.) Here the word of Jesus takes a position of equality with other Scripture. This "off the wall" behavior must have frightened the followers.... as well as put a nail in his coffin. There are times when dramatic, outrageous acts are necessary, especially when words alone seem to get no where, and when people speak pass each other....such as here with the Jewish leaders..... Jesus is the Word..... he is the authority..more than the Scripture itself.....
pastordon, Riverside,elmiraNY
As part of the children's time... a person will topple some tables up front, and we'll leave them there until the end.
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 02:35:01
YIKES! When will this change? Each week another person writes a complaint about feeling abused. How long should this go on? I'm speaking about the contributions of Rick of Va. Who needs it?
Now...is it possible for someone to get across to Rick of Va, that this is not the place for being insulting, for his spending his energy and our time in dealing with his judgemental distractions. His discussions belong somewhere else.
Not only is this week after week, but this has been month after month, and now year after year. We are on the DPS to prepare our sermons, not to deal with his verbal abuses and negativity.
I believe that this DPS should be open to all, and there are times i find things which rick says to be interesting. However, it is clear that people are getting discouraged by his putdowns.
It puzzles me why Rick, who isn't a pastor, never been to seminary, and is not preaching week after week, wants us who have sermons to prepare, to spend time with him, occupied with his distracting comments.
Someone invite him go and write in the discussion forum where people might care to discuss items at length.
The rest of us might do well to follow his suggestion to use the scroll bar and by-pass him. If so, that might work... to not feed his apitite.
pasordon, riverside, elmirany
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 06:16:22
I have a theory that the number forty-six refers to the amount of time (in days) that the Glory of God was upon Mt Sinai. God calls Moses on the seventh day and he stays forty - Ex 24:16-18. Given Jesus as the new Moses and the other parallels with years and days I wonder. Could any Biblical scholar enlighten me on the significance of this number? Petereo
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 06:24:32
I agree with the last post. This is a site to discuss sermons, not to call each other names. It is acceptable and exciting when we can disagree with comments people have made on the sermon text for the week, but it is very depressing to see the kind of language that has been used here this week. I hate to think that I cannot tell you what I think about the Jesus Seminar, because I will be viciously attacked from either side of the debate. Regardless of what anyone thinks about the Jesus Seminar, whether they are scholars or heretics-- this is an inappropriate place to discuss these differences, especially if we are going to do so rudely. If someone is going to name the Jesus Seminar (or any other group) in their comments on this week's text, and you feel the need to respond, respond to what THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE POST SAID, not the validity of the group he or she quoted. And if you disagree with what the person who wrote the initial post said, this is fine and good and encourages diversity on this site, but PLEASE respond to them lovingly! I come to this site to prepare my sermon, and I enjoy the diversity and disagreements I see here, as they all get my sermon juices flowing, but it makes me very sad when I read the rudeness of some of the posts and the divergence from this week's text. I tell you hesitantly that I am a seminary student (hesitantly, because I am afraid someone will attack me for being "just an inexperienced seminarian" who does not have the time or the energy or the desire to wade through the bitter remarks I see here. Grace and peace to all of you, and I look forward to continued participation on this site and apologize for my own divergence from the text in this message. I do not wish to "cleanse the temple" by disregarding ANY of you. I ask only that you speak the truth in love to one another, and please remember that this site is for all and is not the place for angry personal disputes. Thank you. Grace and PEACE, D in Missouri
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 08:21:53
I just had a thought on cleansing the temple. I was reading an article on CNN.com about the Pope's visit to the Holy Land. I read about his reunion in Jerusalem with two childhood Jewish friends he had known in Poland. Although saying "The church is sorry for its anti-Semitic history" could not even begin to compensate for the atrocities committed in the name of Christ against Jewish people and others throughout history, I heartily applaud the Popes efforts at forming a reconciliation between Catholics and Jews. John Paul II has brought the Catholic church a long way since the days (not so long ago) when anti-semitism by the church was perfectly acceptable and even encouraged (sadly, this sometimes continues today). Now, to my point...As I was reading the article, I wondered if one could consider John Paul's efforts at reconcilation a kind of cleansing of the temple. This may be completely off-base, but it was a late-night musing that got me thinking. Perhaps the pope is "cleansing the temple" from its dirty history as a violent oppressor against non-Christians, in this case Jewish people during the Holocaust. Perhaps the pope, in his frail and gentle manner, is overturning the tables of the anti-semites and others who have soiled the church with hatred for millenia. Perhaps the "merchants" here are those who have committed genocide and sanctioned slavery in the name of the Church (the Crusades, the Inquisition, the horrifying history of violence against Jews and others). "Destroy this temple of chaotic violence, and I will raise up the temple of my body, I will raise up my message of radically inclusive love, I will sacrifice my life for humankind, and I will bring new life, I will bring a new temple unlike the violent temple you know now." I would be interested in hearing what you think. Grace and peace, D in Missouri
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 12:57:48
How about one more view of this text, focusing on verse 16. Isn't it ironic that Jesus should say to the people who sold DOVES that they should "get these out of here?" When Jesus was circumcised eight days after his birth, 2 doves were sacrificed. Doves were the lowest cost sacrifice allowed by levitical law. Now, in his adulthood, when he was about to make the greatest and final sacrifice for everyone, the cheapest sacrifice of dove no longer has value -- clean them and everything else out that defiles the Temple of God and prepare for the REAL cleansing of the temple which was going to occur in the not too distant future. The final sacrifice (Jesus) had entered the Temple and has found that his Father's house is no longer "the light to the Gentiles." He sees that the Temple, especially the Court of the Gentiles, has become a conveneince store, where anything to do with religion and sacrifice can be readily obtained. The people have forgotten how to worship! I'm pretty sure that Jesus wasn't really talking to the people on the Temple floor but to the Sadducees who had their administrative offices above the Temple complex. Jesus was certainly mad that they had converted the temple into a marketplace instead of a place of worship. Let's not create a marketplace out of our churches, where cheap religion is practiced and exhorted, and let's not cheapen the greatest sacrifice of them all by being weak disciples and cheap sacrifices ourselves for the Gospel.
-- Methodist in GA
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 13:54:04
to Vance and Tomar
Thank you for your contributions on 21st. I'm late as usual - but your comments have helped me hone my initial efforts at writing a sermon.
Also, thank you to those of you who have identified art web sites to illustrate the Christian gospel.
blessings to all of you, susp QU
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 14:43:32
Here are my early words - there is so much one could do with this reading - congregational healing - clearing, change, lenten ritual observances etc. This is but a start -
We often think of Jesus as gentle, even tempered, and kind...... We remember how he reached out to people in need..... how he helped the poor....... and healed the sick..... We remember how he broke and shared bread amongst the crowds who gathered to hear him speak and teach about God’s kingdom........ We remember the miracles......... the gentle words of wisdom...... and his great love for all who came to him. .....
There is another side of Jesus....... He was a radical..... a revolutionary........ a man with a purpose...... a cause....... he spoke about freedom....... about change........ all in the name of God.
What we don’t want to remember is that he had a temper...... he did fly into a rage now and then....... he got angry........ In the gospels we read how his disciples described him....... We read in Mark 3:5 that Jesus looked at his followers in anger............. That often his eyes would be like a flame of fire............... And that he could speak with what the disciples called the wrath (anger) of the lamb............... Just a few weeks ago we heard that Jesus turned against Peter and told him to get away from him.... .. He called him Satan.....(Matthew 16:23)......... He sent a fierce message to Herod using the words......... Go tell that sly fox ....... (Luke 13:32)............. He called the Pharisees “white-washed tombs” (Matthew 23:27)...... ... Serpents (Matthew 23:33)......
And today we hear about Jesus anger outside and inside the temple........ Overturning tables..... using a whip to get the moneychangers.... and the traders........ out of the temple and its grounds....... He was angry at the people who cared more about keeping the law of Moses and the Holiness Laws in Leviticus than they did about the meaning of truly worshipping God...... He was angry at people who defiled the very meaning of the law... to keep the body holy - a place for the living God to enter...... Is your temple ready for God to enter
Well, we don’t see any pictures around here which show Jesus with eyes of fire and a whip in his hand........ we don’t see a picture of people cowering and running to get away from his angry temper and the lashing of his whip....... Where are the pictures of the upturned tables, the money, pigeons, and doves flying everywhere.......... these pictures exist in art galleries and books, they are not often seen in our churches.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether our temples...... our communities, our churches, our bodies..... could do with a Jesus who has angry flashing eyes and who carries a whip......... Maybe we can admit that there are a few tables to be overturned...... A few things to change .... Maybe people in today’s world would stop the fighting, the abuse, the killing....... Maybe they would hear this kind of message....... Maybe we would all hear this kind of message.... Or maybe we would not.........
We spend much time talking about Jesus’s ministry .......... We hear often about God’s love for all of creation...... But just as a coin has two sides......... We often close our minds to the reality that there are two sides to Jesus. ..............We do not think about the cost ....... the efforts of one man, Jesus, to bring the message to us....... We follow our own instincts...... our own interpretation of what we think God wants................ No wonder Jesus was angry..... He was surrounded by people who did not understand.......
It is not enough to remember only the kind and healing acts of Jesus......Surely our understanding of being Christian must be based on the whole of Jesus life, his character, and his conduct.......... Here was a man, Jesus, the son of God........ who was prepared to give his life so that people everywhere would understand........ Jesus, the liberator........ A man not worried about being diplomatic....... A man counting on the power of truth to set us free........ All that is asked of us is that we listen....... and be prepared to turn our lives over to him so that he can work his miracles in our lives.......
susp.Qu
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 15:44:01
In this text when reference is made of raising the temple in three days ( verse 22 )..." the body he was speaking of was his body "...don't we refer to the church as the Living-Now Body of Christ? If we, as the church, local congregation and larger ( denominationally/faith traditionally and ecumenically ), are flagrantly abusive of our created purpose, how can we authentically worship in the gathering places? Our abuses are obvious in our places of worship.
I'm reminded of the agricultural practices of farmers who want the best blueberry crops...clear the forest, burn the rubble ( slash and burn? ) THEN plant.
I'm haunted by the story of a young woman who wanted her young child to be enrolled in our church pre-school program/day care. She was told that there was a waiting list, BUT the process would be more expedient if she were a member of the congregation! This strikes me a modern marketing!... a modern table turner...day care for day care not as a membership-drive coupon!
I relate to this scripture just as the story is told. There is such modern truth there that going beyond weakens the truth as it is told directly, for me. Kairos
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 15:44:36
In this text when reference is made of raising the temple in three days ( verse 22 )..." the body he was speaking of was his body "...don't we refer to the church as the Living-Now Body of Christ? If we, as the church, local congregation and larger ( denominationally/faith traditionally and ecumenically ), are flagrantly abusive of our created purpose, how can we authentically worship in the gathering places? Our abuses are obvious in our places of worship.
I'm reminded of the agricultural practices of farmers who want the best blueberry crops...clear the forest, burn the rubble ( slash and burn? ) THEN plant.
I'm haunted by the story of a young woman who wanted her young child to be enrolled in our church pre-school program/day care. She was told that there was a waiting list, BUT the process would be more expedient if she were a member of the congregation! This strikes me a modern marketing!... a modern table turner...day care for day care not as a membership-drive coupon!
I relate to this scripture just as the story is told. There is such modern truth there that going beyond weakens the truth as it is told directly, for me. Kairos
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 17:53:06
Thanks for the post of Seminarian D from Missouri..
no need to be hesitant about being a seminarian....as you have discovered, seminary in itself is no magic spot where one "gets the truth".
There are many laypersons who never get to seminary and are great teachers for the pastors. I have learned in the past, and continue to be instructed by wise lay persons and seminarians.
There are persons who really would benefit from the give and take, the digging, being respectful of others and their opinions. Having strong opinions is not to be confused with being a dedicated disciple, and Friend of Jesus.I find that Jesus makes it a point to calm down and ask James to be gentle , when he wants to bring fire down on others who are healing , but "are not one of us". All we have gotten in the past when making helpful comments, are more attacks calling others "psycho-babble". Unless there is receptivity...there is no hearing.. This ties into this weeks text as Jesus speaks to the Jewish leaders. About 2 years ago Rick from Va asked on the DPS if his going to seminary would be of any benefit. There was a loud resounding corporate YES!!!!
I only hope that Rick, this active servant of the Episcopal Church in Va. will find the time and opportunity to study in the disciplines of some seminary, and make contributions which move toward reconcilation and Grace. Maybe some of us could suggest a seminary, and start a scholarship fund.
Now back to the text.........
pastordon, riverside,elmira,ny
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 19:06:44
Don H in Elmira - What seminary did you attend friend - I believe you went through a course of study - no? Let's not get too haughty in our supposed anonimity.
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 19:07:57
Don H in Elmira - What seminary did you attend friend - I believe you went through a course of study - no? Let's not get too haughty in our supposed anonimity.
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 19:16:13
Dear Don in NY,
To paraphrase a popular commercial in an attempt to be cute:
"Put down that attitude and step away from that high horse."
I'm worried you might get a nose bleed up there or possibly fall off and hurt yourself.
Do me and others here a favor. Don't ask for scholarship funds on my behalf, it looks as if seminary for me will be put on indefinite hold. However, why not make a contribution in my name to Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry, a seminary that teaches that God has revealed Himself in the pages of Holy Scripture. You can find them in Ambridge Pa. on the outskirts of Pittsburgh.
In my view, they are doing a yeoman's job in combatting the systemic heresy found in so much of the ECUSA.
And thanks Don for being an example of tolerance and non-judgementalism. You ought to be emulated by all.
But do be careful on the horse...
Rick in Va
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 20:36:50
The old Temple sat in front of them would be leveled in 70 AD when the Jew's rebellion in Jerusalem ended. It was said to be the dwelling place of God, the place where God was among us. Jesus was talking about another temple, God literally among us, which when "destroyed" would be rebuilt in 3 days. The transfer from the Temple, from place to person something to think about. (See Deu 16:16 about not coming empty handed and Psalm 69:9 about the transfer to Christ.) Where God abides there is the temple, if Christ be in us, then we must guard against cluttering it with crass religion and unholy objects that are for self enrichment, rather than holy enrichment. Now in John, but in another account, Jesus warns against "cut through the temple as a short cut." Something to think about
C.D from VA.
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 20:43:34
My Friends,
I am reminded of the old saying, "Where you stand depends upon where you sit." Some of us come here weekly or from time to time, seeking nourishment, a sense of the holy. Some come to work on sermons. Some come to do both.
Frankly, the experience is quite different when you are not working on a sermon. I preach weekly, but from time to time have the blessing of a guest preacher or our youth minister preaching. When I visit this site on those weeks I see it through different eyes.
I have not come here for awhile, not because I didn't have to prepare a sermon, but rather that I wasn't nourished. I find the rock throwing off-putting. I am coming to a place where I am willing to offer a bit of analysis of the non-sermon producing rock throwers. I believe there is great anxiety before entering seminary and a predominant need to be right. And if we are aggressive by nature, what better place to come then here, where rocks may be thrown at those trained to catch them? I believe there is great pain in one of these rock throwers, great unadressed, un-named pain. Prayer would be in order.
As to the text: I believe Jesus was cleansing the only part of the temple acessible to gentiles. I believe he was doing the equivalent of flinging open the doors of the church (or lifting high the cross). "Come, ALL ye that travail and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you." (Mat 11:28)
HW in HI
Date: 25 Mar 2000
Time: 21:25:22
Whhheyyy; easy Trigger, that a boy... let me get off before you throw me!
Of Course I studied.... there is a quaint little Bible School, sitting on the banks of the Charles River, in the town of Adams and cod. Is it still there? Do they still teach the Bible on Beacon Hill? MLK Jr. thought it was worth getting his PhD there...can't say it was a bad education although they didn't tell us how to deal with nose bleeds. I must be off... to High Tea with the Cabots... in the Temple.... must remember to purchase a couple of pure doves... and not get involved with that wild man, who i hear has come to town....
tata for now...
pastordon or the riverside class.
Date: 26 Mar 2000
Time: 00:12:13
It was asked which actons of Jesus got him crusified. As best I can understand it, Jesus cleansing the temple very much angered the temple leaders but they would never have charged him with that, lest such charges elevate his heroic status amoung the people. People knew that Jesus was right if removing the money changing from inside the temple.
There are the excuses for which Jesus was charged and then there are the real reasons the leaders could not tollerate Jesus. I recently heard a scholar say that Jesus defying the class bounderies probably did more to get his crusified than any names Jesus called himself or any theological arguments he made. It is clear that Jesus was a threat to the system. But it is not so clear how a Sanhedrin could convict him of anything. Manzel
Date: 26 Mar 2000
Time: 00:30:30
Pastordon chooses to ignore the fact that he is a course of study grad and never attended seminary like he flaunts. DOes it matter? apparently it matters to him or he might fess up. Careful when throwing rocks at people armed with facts "pastor Don.
Date: 26 Mar 2000
Time: 01:29:24
Geez, after reading the posts this week I begin to relate quite well to Jesus' anger in the gospel text! I must agree with those whose comments call us to accountability for using this particular site as inappropriately as did the folks Jesus so unceremoniously tossed out of the temple courtyard. I usually find the input of my fellow Christinas here very thought provoking and stimulating as I prepare for the upcoming Sunday. This week, however, I join the many who bemoan the bitterness and very UNChristian attitudes and behavior exhibited in several of the entries. I found it very hard to get past them. The sheer number of them made it hard to merely scroll...scroll...scroll. Can we not find some way to avoid this in the future or will some of us need to crate and use another site? Is this site monitored in any way? Can entries be screened before publication so that we can weed out some of this? While none of us desire an iron hand, I"M sure many of us would agree that several "contributions" this week went far beyond what should be tolerated. Frustrated and concerned, Rev She in NC
Date: 26 Mar 2000
Time: 01:34:19
The "Storytellers Companion to the Bible" blessed me with a reminder to look beyond the "wicked merchants misusing people and God" approach to the Gospel text. Although that is cetainly a classical scholarly approach to this pericope, this tale reminds me that teh gospel lesson also includes the Johannine emphaiss on Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice to end all sacrifices. His coming puts an end to the need for other offerings. Now HE intercedes on our behalf. It is a pithy story, well worth reading and pondering. Rev She in NC
Date: 26 Mar 2000
Time: 02:46:53
Off TOPIC
Rev S he and Hw I agree wholeheartedly. I have been away from this site several months. I get enough finger pointing and name calling because too many "people of color" who don't dress right are now coming to church- and they don't even speak English to make it worse. I don't need more hostility here. I will pray for those who are angry and enocurage others to do the same. viajera in GA
Date: 26 Mar 2000
Time: 03:28:16
Let's make sure to pray for Jesus too...
After all, doesn't this lectionary show that he too was angry?
Date: 26 Mar 2000
Time: 03:53:36
It's been awhile since I've been here. It appears somethings never change. Bye! Bye!
student-pastor in MS
P. S. I'll be praying for you all. May God Bless!!
Date: 31 Mar 2000
Time: 15:05:45
I'm looking ahead to our Youth Sunday and want to find a poem called "Chosen" by Jim McEachon - name may be misspelled. Any one who can help? Thanks Lee in Michigan
Date: 11 Apr 2000
Time: 19:28:37
Has anyone else noticed that this is not the Gospel lesson appointed for Easter Day? This is from Lent 3.
JDW in Cincinnati