Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 01:46:21
I am not picking up any contributions to this text. I either have a problem or I surely can't be the first to reflect on this text.
I am wondering if any of you do setting up visuals for your sermons. This week would be great to do something with entangling vines throughout the altar area and maybe even down the center aisle around the pews so that the people have ot enter from the side aisles. It would be a great statement about being part of the vine. Fellow wanderer
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 02:13:52
Fellow wanderer,
I like your creative thinking--I'm always looking for something that breaks the routine too.
I guess what strikes me about the text is that Jesus talks about being fruitful, rather than "successful" Henry Nouen (spelling?) often pointed out the difference between the two. The way I understand it, fruitfulness is inner spiritual growth that may touch others around us as opposed to achievement out of our own strength and doing. Fruitfulness is based on the grace of God (as the branch is dependent on the vine for nourishment, success may be solely based on our own strength. A much needed message in this day and age of hustle and bustle. We got to slow down!
Chuck
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 04:22:44
Where do we look for our strength, wisdom, life, and even theology?
As I do some early musings over this text these questions come to mind.
I preach in a church that tends to be fiercly congregational. "We can do it ourselves" is the attitude of this congregation much of the time. Likewise, the congregation is firecly resistant to anything that appears too "religous." (or too "Catholic" or too "Charismatic" or too "Fundamental" or too "Liberal" or too "Optimistic" or too...you get the idea.)
I have been preaching since Easter Sunday about the promise of Easter Renewal. The idea that 'after the empty tomb, everything is different!'
So much of the time I find myself and others who claim Christ are not willing to abide in him, but would rather 'do it my way.' There is also an incredible amount of trust involved in allowing one's self to fully abide in Christ. That means letting Jesus supply 100% of our needs. It may even mean doing things God's way, not mine.
Enough of my personal ramblings, now onto the question. How do we effectivally communicate the need to become that depedent on Christ in a culture which is so fiercly individualistic?
Any thoughts?
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 04:23:27
Previous post was from DWR! Sorry. Peace, DWR
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 10:32:20
DWR: I have empathy, having a church that had a "Sunday morning only pastor" for many many, years they developed an attitude of, "we will do it ourselves." We did noy try any major xhanges the first year, the previous pastor tried changes and was voted out after 5 months. When changes began a full year after I came, the complaints came. One group of three people said, "We feel we have lost control of the church." It took same painful pruning to get things going the right direction. This is a good text to reflect on for pastors in pain. Sometimes YOU are the one who will be pruned! Other times it will be laypeople who are proud of the way they are, thank you.
Keep in mind the best way to get people less individualistic and more focused on "God, others and us working as a team" is through small groups. Tom Albin, the "Upper Room" Chaplain said, "I do not feel you can become the person God wants you to be without being part of a small group." Grapes, the successful fruit of a vineyard, do come in small bunches, you might recall. Pray hard, fast and do not try to do too much too quickly without packing your bags at the same time. (See the book "Antagonists in the Church," real good advice for pruning.) revup
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 17:23:02
Just a note for early in the week- the Greek word that gets translated into both "prunes" and "cleanses" is carthesis. Lots to do with this when examining the state of the church. It is not so much that something has been cut off as that which is unhealthy is removed, or expelled, or vomited. I would not understand this as persons being removed but unhealthy attitudes. The image of a cleansing of one's soul, removing all the festering hurt, anger or pain is what I see enabling new growth. A W-G rocky coast Me.
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 17:27:41
I'm thinking about living vines and degenerate or dead vines. I certainly can't mention this directly in my sermon (I think), but last Sunday in two Sunday School classes, no teachers showed up, and they hadn't let anyone know they weren't coming. Attendance in Sunday School is slowly dropping. I'm thinking that the way to kill a vine is to give it to someone who is not interested or has no passion or energy or love for what they are doing. The other way is maybe to give it to someone who wants to dominate and won't let anyone else do anything. In this practical case, is it better to dismiss someone (prune them out) and and have a temporary void, or do a half-hearted job?
And then there is the issue of a vine looking dead, but really it just needs some attention and sunlight. In a marriage, sometimes things seem dead, but really there are issues that need to be dealt with that are choking the relationship. In a church, how do we get rid of dead wood without making a mistake and chopping off something that just needs some pruning?
DG in NYC
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 17:49:23
Could someone explain to me the difference between removing a branch and pruning it? It seems to me that part of what this passage suggests is that all of us undergo at least a little snipping here and there; and that may infer that we all face pain and change. The post about carthesis is helpful to me, and reminds me of Martin Bell's prayer on "The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares," in one of his WAY OF THE WOLF books. I also appreciate the thoughts on fruitfulness having to do with spiritual growth and faithfulness, and of the fruit being in small bunches. Perhaps there are others who could bring light to this passage by sharing knowledge about growing grapes and keeping vineyards. Thanks everyone. Janice in Ks.
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 19:07:43
DWR, the idea that we can make it on our own never bears up under scrutiny. In my last parish, there was a man who was a recovering addict. He used to walk into my office and say something like, "I've been clean 10 years, 5 months and three days." He would talk about his sponsors and how they had helped him get through the rough times, and he would talk about the church and about how much their kindness had helped. He would say, "I couldn't have done it on my own." I would remind him that nobody makes it on their own. To quote the song, "I get by with a little help from my friends." In a similar vein, the scripture reminds us that a "threefold cord is not easily broken."
Just a few musings on a sunny Monday....
VGL in TX
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 19:28:06
Wonderful postings so far. Thanks. At one of my three churches, we will be celebrating the graduation of 3 high school seniors, and 1 college senior. "Abide with me... " Seems like there could easily be some good tie-ins here. Any ideas? RevAmy
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 20:16:57
On our parsonage grounds we have a very old lilac tree. Many of the branches were old, dead, or deseased. My pastor husband decided to cut out the dead branches but I thought I saw some green leaves on some of the branches. I did not want him to cut them off but he insisted and as the branches were cut and cleared from the tree.... I saw how dead the branches were.... there was not a green leaf on them. Sometimes we want to see life but we are fooled. Some people in the church are this way ... they have no spiritual life and sometimes the loving thing to do is to cut or prune that part of their lives.... and take the fall out. What is discipleship and discipline all about if we as pastors fail to have accountability for ourselves and others? If we profess to be Christians and are living on false hope, not being connected to the true vine, what is more chaitable .... the light being brought to bear on our false hope or letting us die not knowing? I weep for some of my parishioners. They are older and it seems that the fight is lost.... the hope is gone.... How in churches like this can the fire of the Holy Spirit be infused? Prayer, preaching, care and time... God time..but I am too new and immature in the pastoring and patient part...I fear for their souls... Pastoring a dead or lukewarm church drains us yet it seems that no one wants to turn away and leave them to God. I believe any church that in three years does not grow spiritually or numerically is doomed. The Church connected to the true vine cannot help itself ... it grows because love is there, love that give, love that care, love that is so evidient that people all people are drawn to it. LPinPA
Date: 15 May 2000
Time: 20:26:02
Dear Friends, do any United Methodists have ideas for an Aldersgate Sunday focus related to this scripture? Wesley never saw reason to cut himself off from the 'vine' of the Church of England. Instead, he chose to remain and do what he could to bring renewal. What does this say to to us UMs, especially after this General Conference, where it seems the middle is still holding and saying, "Let's not be so hasty with this talk of breaking up what God has joined together. Instead, let's continue to pray and dialogue and let the Spirit be at work in us all."
Any ideas for how to share the history of our denomination through the sermon or worship? Sorry, folk from other denominations for being off track, but I seldom share our denominational history and folk need to hear some of it now and then.
Thanks! Rebecca in MD
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 02:01:00
Regarding Aldersgate Sunday and the Gospel reading; as I posted above, we sometimes think in terms of cutting off as pruning, but the Greek word is carthesis which mean to vomit the unhealthy stuff. I believe that the united Methodist Church, like so many mainline denominations are wrestling with the issues of human sexuality poised to divide the church. If we take pruning as cutting away from then churches will divide along liberal/conservative lines and that would be tragic. Wesley did not want to break away from the Church of England, rather he sought to renew it. Methodist history, or ever reformation history shows that when the church is in need of revitalization, forces come into play which challenge the operating assumptions of the established church. To eliminate what is unhealthy becomes necessary, but it does not mean that individuals must leave, or that denominations must split. It is difficult and painstaking to confront what is unhealthy, but so necessary. The greatest damage being done to the church that I see is the anger and hatred displayed between members of the Christian fellowship. Aldersgate Street became a place of healing, peace and love for John Wesley, oh to find that secret formula and replicate it today!
A W-G rocky coast Me.
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 04:32:41
Just some thoughts, We have plum trees and every year we must go out and prune off some of the baby plums. If you let all the fruit stay you have nothing but alot of small plums, if you prune some away then what remains grows larger and more flavorful. Also branches with too much fruit will fall or break off due to the weight.
In church I have witnessed some people come in and really be on fire, serving on every board or committee, only to become burned out and fall away.
I wonder if this passage would be well preached if we talk about having a quality ministry with everyone serving in just a few area and not a few people carrying all the areas?
Any other thoughts along these lines?
DM in OK
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 06:51:34
Two comments.
First, as I struggled with feeling pruned myself I read "Streams in the Desert" as devotional material. One of the devotions said something like this: "If you are travelling in wine country out of season and see a vineyard which is overrun with branches and some weeds, then it is clear that the master of the vineyard assumes no more fruit will come from these plants. But, if you see a vineyard where all of the plants are still pruned, then it is clear that the master still expects fruit to come from them. It may not be now, but it will be sometime. Therefore, as you experience the pruning in your own life, know that the Master still expects fruit to come in your life or situation. It may not be now, but it will be sometime."
Second, our parsonage has two horribly ugly bushes out in front of it. But, this year was a hard winter for the moose in the area and one moose in particular ate away at the branches of these bushes...chewing them down to stubs. The consensus of our parsonage committee is that it was the best thing that could have happened to the bushes for the coming year. Now they might grow and bloom as they should.
Alaska Jim
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 13:22:18
Alaska Jim,
Can you mail some moose to Tennessee?! It's a shame Jesus said his father prunes, instead of himself. "Merry Christ Moose" would make an interesting sermon title. Oh well.
I like DM in OK's idea about the overburdened branches falling away. I've seen it happen. I've also read that a tree that won't bloom can be shocked into producing by cutting some of it's roots. I've seen some root-bound churches that could prosper from letting go of the past( both hurts that linger and good-ol-days). The holly bushes out front of my parsonage are getting out of hand, due in part to the fact that every time I try to cut them back, I get all scratched up. Trying to prune congregations can be pretty bloody too. Maybe I shouldn't try to do it all myself but wait on the father who prunes in unexpected ways to send a moose. Or is that just a cop-out?
Why do you people keep posting such good questions and not give me more answers?! In love, tom in TN(USA)
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 17:05:02
Try this hymn for this Sunday's lection. My wife wrote it some years ago.
Jesus Said, "I Am the True Vine" GALILEE 87.87 ("Jesus Calls Us O'er the Tumult")
1. Jesus said, "I am the true vine, You are branches; Follow me! If you stay by me you'll flourish, Bearing fruit abundantly."
2. As a branch draws from a vine its Nourishment and strength to grow. So do we draw strength from Jesus As his love within us flows.
3. Jesus gave a new commandment, "Love each other as I do. There can be no greater love than placing others before you."
4. Lord, we ask that you will guide us As we go our separate ways. May our lives be like strong branches Bearing good fruit all our days.
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 17:10:22
To Janice in Kansas:
Think of a rose bush. After a rose is done blooming, in order to get it to bloom again, you prune it back to the first cluster of five leaves. Without this pruning, additional blooms will be delayed or perhaps not at all. You don't cut off the whole branch to the ground - a much more drastic move. Phil in Ohio
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 17:23:25
Could it be we need to be bold and just tell them what they need to hear? One question for fair game is, "Are we connected to the true vine?" If we were we certainly would be producing fruit, right? We need to tell them how they can get connected (abide) to Jesus. Jesus gives the answer in next week's lection - "by keeping my commandments". If we aren't abiding, we can do nothing. And what are our churches doing? Are they abiding with Jesus? If we aren't pruned, God will have no choice but to do what the moose did- cut us off at the ground in hopes that something new will grow and produce fruit. God does not desire to cut us off.(judgment) He hopes that with pruning (grace) we will produce fruit. Philip in Ohio
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 19:07:49
Hi folks...have been absent from this forum for awhile..at least in contributing! :-)
Heard a reflection recently on these verses...from a charismatic female pastor, teaching about the Holy Spirit and speaking on tongues...of all things! Not something that used to be in my pervue at all!
She said....in these verses, if Jesus is the vine, and God is the vinedresser, then it is the promised Holy Spirit--the Advocate (see ch. 14--this is all of one kind really) --who is the SAP that runs through the vine, keeping it alive, feeding and nourishing all the branches, little sticks, leaves..and of course giving the FRUIT it juiciness and sweetness...its very value!
Thought that was pretty cool...and it ties ch. 15 in with the KEY promises of Jesus made to his discples--and that would include us, I assume--regarding the power and presence of the Spirit in ch. 14. The Spirit that, when we rely on him..."teaches us all things..." (14.26--And as Jesus suggests immediately in the next verse..this is HIS PEACE he gives to us).
Barry in OH
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 20:16:20
In verse five Jesus said, “Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.” The life giving flow of the Spirit within us gives us the ability to bear much fruit. We may choose to restrict the flow by not fully abiding in Christ. The pruning that takes places is the Spirit calling us to repentance or accountability. It may be by words spoken by the courageous pastor, by God’s word read in private study, discipleship accountability or prayer. However, the Spirit accomplishes His task we, who are pruned, are set free. Free from our past sin and free from fear. When sin and fear leave love blossoms. The fruit of the Spirit is then able to draw all people to the Christ which people see in us. “Thoes who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit.” Is the husbandman than the Spirit of our living God? I think so. How do you all see this? LPinPA
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 20:30:19
At first a passage about pruning did not sound exciting but many denominations seem to be at a point of desperately needing some catalyst.
It is not just United Methodists but we are kind of a classic example of the stalemate reached in churches today. What was accomplished at General Conference besides business as usual? It has been said there is a great difference between managers and leaders. The church heirarchy probably deserves an A for management of a tough situation, yet vision is lacking. A compromise on the most divissive issue may protect the organization but both sides felt great dissapointment that there was not greater action to further the kingdom of God. Conservatives feel the church is not strong enough in a stand condemning homosexuality and the liberals feel great pain that there is too much condemnation.
My point is not to argue for or against a certain stand on this particular issue but to say that it is symptom of a very basic problem, paralasys. The church is unable to act because it is boxed in, fearful of offending left wing or right wing. Therefor a certain deadness has set in. Pruning may be what the church needs but how is it possible to in any wise and loving way, do pruning within the denomination?
Surely pruning does not mean "getting rid of" certain people or groups of people. Yes, there is a difference between pruning a branch and cutting it completely off.
How can the church do pruning without cutting off people?
Is is ever right for a church to say "no, I'm sorry we just don't have a place for you here"? I believe God can use anyone for ministry as well as God loves all God's children. But is trying to please everybody the best way to be a church?
If the church needs pruning and if the stewards of the church need to be involved in the pruning, in what way can this process be done to maximize fruitfulness?
Please help me process this thought. Our denomination could be so much more fruitful than it is and the answers that have been proposed so far do not seem to offer solutions for the church.
This passage seems to suggest that only when God's energy is flowing though us at a vibrant level can we be fruitful. Ok if the church is to let go of some of its former functons and concentrate its energy in growing a new area of fruitfulness, what should that be? The answer given by the old paradigm is to "make disciples" and that has become a code word for attempts to insure the survival of our institution. This passage is right on target. We are working so much at church growth that we are weak in the spirit which bears the real fruit. Is there any advantage in trying to focus on quality of discipleship rather than number of disciples? Certainly this would point us to more Bible study, prayer, and growth groups as well as renewed quality in worship. Why do these vines seem to still be missing the kind of Grace that is surely available to us?
If God is doing a new thing among us, what is it?
Date: 16 May 2000
Time: 23:41:49
If churches of today are known by their fruit, what is this visible evidence? If a church is large and prosperous does that mean it is fulfilling its purpose? Could it be that the best standards for judging the fruitfulness of our churches is the standard in this week's epistle?
This week's gospel reading gives us some practical methodology for God's spirit being productive through us, while this week's epistle helps us to see if the life force that flows through us is really God's will and God's spirit. If perfect love casts out fear, then is using fear as a motivator a good way for the church to produce fruitfulness?
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 01:33:16
I learned an interesting fact from a church member who owns an orange grove in Florida. Almost all oranges come from grafted trees. At the nursery, the hordiculturalist (if that is the proper title)takes a lemon tree stock and grafts an orange bud to it. Reason for this is the lemon tree comes from a sturdier stock which is less prone to splinterin or breaking under the weight of a bumper crop of oranges. I like to think about Jesus' analogy of "your are the branch and I am the vine," as our being grafted to the vine. Applying the illustration of the orange graft to the lemon stock, we depend on the strength and stability of Christ in order that our lives may remain fruitful. The storms of life are beneficial. They prune off the deadwood and deseased wood which threatens the future harvest. When we are grafted to Christ our fruit remains fixed in the midst of the storms of adversity.
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 03:15:21
Probably I'm one who the people in DWR's church would condemn as being "too optimistic", but I can't interpret this passage as Jesus giving up on any church or any individual. I like to think that what is unproductive in me he will cast into the fire - but if he sees me pastoring a church that (as LP in PA says) hasn't grown numerically in three years, he isn't gonna just toss me! (I trust we are growing spiritually, and we are adding to our number - but so many dear old saints are leaving through death. We are Aldersgatein name and character - both warm and strange!)
I visited a man in the hospital today who talked with deep contentment about being asked over and over again to give up certain pleasures, ways of life, posessions, habits for God. Maybe that's what being pruned consists of. As a fruitful vine, my friend was so touched by the Vinegrower's attention, astonished that God would take such care with him and with us all. Being pruned is an honor, not a threat.
kbc in sc
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 03:19:09
Aside: It's not actually 3:00 a.m. on the 17th here, but 11:30 p.m. on the 16th, eastern daylight time. kbc in sc
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 11:40:06
Comments... We, UMC (USA), as one of the wineskins of the Church, must take a good hard look at ourselves. In other countries the UMC is growing. Why? Why are we slowing loosing members? What do the people see or not see in us? We must question not our doctrine but perhaps our book of discipline. Why do we hold onto people by threatening to take their church building away? Why are the parsonage standards set higher than most homes structures in the area to which the pastor is placed? Why are there levels of clergy authority? Why are some clergy restricted in their voting privileges? Why are we afraid to honor the laity who do certain ministries .. ministers of whatever? As a church are we abiding in the true vine or have we in some way left the standards of men creep into our Book of Discipline. Perhaps we feel we must do this to attract people or prospective clergy. These are question that I ponder over in the dark of the night. I pray God will give us what we lack. After reading about the General Conference and its decisions ...... I wonder if we are stuck in a rut of a power struggle not out of wanting to hold onto power but out of fear that if we change anything we might fall from the will of God. Individual Church are caught in the same fear. Fear that if we try anything new God will turn His back on us. Well we are slowing loosing ...... we must understand that God’s plan will not be changed weather we hold onto what we perceive to be right and good. Abiding in the vine,,, Jesus came to serve not to be served. We as a church must learn all over again that to be a true leader we must be a servant to all. Christ used a whip once in all his ministry we have to learn when to us authority. It always must be used out of love and faith not for positional power. God will sustain us even if we make mistakes. Love never fails.
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 13:29:43
I just returned from my son's college graduation in St. Paul. Finally, fruit from years of pruning, tending, loving, nurturing, growing. The fruit came as a natural result of combining all the right stuff and waiting. I am often tempted to seek fruit "before its (not it's) time". Before the soil, rain, sun, vine, and care have done their thing. Do any others in the church see a hot prospect and start scratching for fruit early? How many farmers go rooting around the soil in the cornfield to see if the sprouts are any good? In our haste for production, perhaps we lose some bounty. The fruit will come naturally. The branch will not even notice its own fruit much because it is so natural. I know and love dearly many such "fruity" folks. ARMY CHAPLAIN E, Ft Belvoir
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 13:59:57
To Rebecca in MD regarding Aldersgate Sunday.
If John Wesley had been successful when he came to the states, he would not have experienced that warming of heart. As it was, he was pruned/cleansed, and was ready for the growth/change that would bear good lush fruit of a ministry that would make for social and life changes.
I also see this passage for us second and third carreer pastors...a few prunings before we bear fruit. clw in co
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 14:12:20
I think we need to remember that in this passage it is the Father who is the vinedresser and the one who does the pruning, not us. It is not up to us to prune one another! That is God's doing. What we are asked to do is abide in Jesus, to look out for ourselves, so that we may bear fruit. We may think others need to be pruned, when we ourselves need to be pruned as well! --Mike in Maryland
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 15:26:24
Pruning vines - A problem and a blessing. I am frustrated with all the secular Christains who need to be entertained and have to have earth moving experiences every week. They have no committment to a congregation, they are not accountable and they shop for Bible Studies and feel good events. Being part of the bunch, they aren't about to take a leap and lead. I have little clusters of growth here and there in my churches. I am frustrated that the only thing in the press about UM church is homosexuality. Are we not doing anything else ? That is not the focus of my ministry and I resent that the press uses it as a means to discount and divide the General Conference. Excuse me, my job is make disciples- even of the lumps in the pews. Sometimes we have to cut back and prune out that which is not growing. Here in Iowa there are many soft maple trees. If these trees are injured, those sections die yet the living part holds on to it, growing around it. We experienced small tornados and very strong winds here last week. There were many established and large old trees that were rotted in the center. These came down. Hard - Into houses, along power lines and into the streets. These trees looked solid, but the third that fell left its imprint on the living part. You could see where the rot had been. We have rot within when we debate the worthiness of some people who are different. I don't have time for this, the words that I want to be using are of God's Grace and healing. PS in Ia
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 16:56:02
I like the hymn that "my wife wrote" and would like to give her credit if we sing it. Can you please post her name if it is ok to use it? Thanks. Jenny from WI
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 17:58:26
Mike in Maryland,
I would gently suggest that you read the Bible again, looking for the word rebuke (can we agree that rebuking is a form of pruning?).
I believe you'll find it Scriptural that Christians are supposed to 'prune' each other. I believe the Scriptures are clear that we are not to 'prune' non-believers.
Perhaps I'm wrong... but hey, right and wrong are no longer held to anyway so it probably matters little.
Rick in Va
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 18:04:12
I am looking for the classic three points about pruning, and here is where I am as of Wed. lunchtime:
1. We need to practice spiritual disciplines to keep the life blood of the Holy Spirit flowing through ourselves or we tend to become useless, dead wood which must be trimmed away before it rots the rest of the vine. (15:6 Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.)
2. God sometimes uses rather painful pruning to get the life blood and Holy Spirit moving within us, mainly because we get closer to Christ in times of trial and turmoil. (15:2b Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit.)
3. If we do spend our time getting closer to Jesus and letting the Holy Spirit work through us, we can accomplish much. (15:5a I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit...)
Any comments on these three points? revup
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 18:29:44
I just really saw verse 15:3 "You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you." Huh? revup
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 18:47:47
He pruneth me, He pruneth me, by His own hand he pruneth me; his faithful follower I would be, for by his hand he pruneth me.
Maybe someday I will think of pruning is such celebrative terms but for now that image just does not feel very positive. Does this mean my faith is lagging?
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 20:10:19
I don't know why, but we seem to all be looking at this pruning thing from a very negative aspect. I have done grafting and pruning for a number of years. Yes it might be painful to the vine/tree, but it is done lovingly by the caretaker of the vineyard or the garden, because he has the best interest of the vine/tree at heart = he wants a good crop. I think the same is true of the church. The caregiver of the church and of each individual does this in love, so that the end results will be good.
Why, get all hung up on the pain of everything = we are called to a theology of pain = because in the end the good result is for what we desire. Granted there are times when I would rather not go through the agony of the situation or the consequences of my sin, but I know at least that God the Physician needs to do some surgery and God does it with love and concern. Even if God sends the most difficult people to administer it. (God Forbid = but it happens that way sometimes) I realize that sounds noble and not very practical, but I do believe that if we see it as the work of God and not necessarily for us to take control of it, then it is less painful and treating the word of God in a good manner.
I recently heard that we humans will usually choose the negative side in most instances, and allow our worst fears to come out. Are we, who follow Christ guilty of being "very" human? So, love sometimes is painful (true), but it is love from one who cares for our best interests = that we become what God wants us to become.
I want to preach a sermon that will not so much scare the "hell" out of my people, but help them understand when negative things come their way that God is in it, and that God helps us to clean up our acts to become more like Christ and less like our ornery selves. To understand that pruing is necessary for most all of us at some time or another.
Fellow Wanderer Wed. IN time 3:10 PM
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 20:49:43
Abiding, dwelling, resting in God ...
is our treasurer as believers ... we are invited to simply "passively be" with God throughout the day. This is what it mean to be part of the vine ... drinking in the sap of an intimate relationship with God. What is amazing is that we don't have to do anything, simply enter the night of unknowing and allow the mystery at the center of our lives to renew us. Do not worry, God will do the pruning, indeed if I tried I might cut or break the wrong branch. It is through this dark yet brilliant faith that we are able to bear much fruit....
tom in ga
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 21:38:45
In 15:2, Jesus says,"He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit." Does "in me" refer to the Church, i.e. "in Christ?" Or does it refer to something in Jesus Himself?
In 15:3, Jesus says, "You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you." Does this statement mean that "cleansing" and "pruning" are the same thing? Or is one part of the other, or are they both separate processes necessary for growth in Christ? If cleansing is done "by the word spoken to us," can pruning be done in the same manner?
What is "cleansing" here? Is it the removal of anything that defiles our relationship to God? Is it sin? Is it confusion? Is it anything which prevents fruit bearing?
What is fruitfulness as used in this passage? Demonstrating the "fruit of the Spirit?" Loving more dearly, seeing more clearly, etc?"
Jude in Wash
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 23:09:20
Heard the text in a different way today...
WHAT IF Jesus is speaking about his OWN PERSONAL experience in verese 1-2?...of being "pruned" in his spirit by God...look at the verses and hear them that way. Seems very powerful to me...my Savior giving me an intimate look into his own soul, his own relationship and understanding (at least in part) of what it means to "abide" in the Spirit with his Father.
I don't experience pruning in a negative way at all, especially in this light...but as a natural part of growth in the Spirit--with Jesus modeling for me submission and responsiveness to God's teaching and molding. Works for me, when I take seriously that God is indeed AVCTIVE in my own life and trying to teach me "all things in the Spirit" (cf. John 14).
Barry in OH
Date: 17 May 2000
Time: 23:35:09
Back to Chuck's point at the very beginning about the difference between success and fruitfulness, here is one of those quotes from Henri Nouwen: "Jesus lived less than foty years; he didn't travel outside his own country; the people who knew him during his life scarcely understood him; and when he died, only a few of his followers remained faithful. In every respect, his life was a failure. Success had left him, popularity had dwindled, and all his power was gone. Still, few lives have been so fruitful; few lives have affected the thinking and feeling of other people so deeply; few have so profoundly shaped future cultures; few have influenced so radically the patterns of human relationships. Jesus himself referred constantly to the fruitfulness of his life that would only become manifest after his death..." (This is from "Our Greatest Gift, a Meditation on Dying and Caring" published by Harper in 1994. page 39.
DG in NYC
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 01:50:18
Any one connecting "pruning" and "being perfected in love" from 1 John? Mark in Va.
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 12:17:38
Fruitful preaching to all.
I encounter quite a few vines where I live. Most of them are a nuisance, but let me assure you they are the most hardy and most difficult of all plants to remove. You only have to leave one small remnant and it will begin to grow again. I cannot speak from experience about grape vines, but I believe that you have to stay within the metaphor that Jesus provides.
Like a bunch of sheep, a vine is an unruly thing. The process of pruning, was often referred to as training the vine. In other words, the vine needed to remain ordered, and not allowed to grow wildly. The church that I have experienced is often expending a lot of energy in areas it believes is important, with the result of a decreasing mission.
The vine had to be trained to follow the trellis, so that it was adequately supported. Otherwise it would become too heavy and fall over. That is the only real fault of vines, they often require other supports, because they cannot support their own weight. Imagine a church, if we didn't have people supporting us with their money they make in the secular world! They use the environment around them to climb on. But a vine will eventually engulf the support if it is untended. So pruning is the control of a vine to ensure that it does not run amok. (Out of control) If a vine is not trained to follow the trellis, a branch could also snap under the weight of the grapes and the crop would be lost. Only those branches that can be effectively woven into the trellis are left.
A vine is also a very powerful plant. It will creep into the smallest crevice, and it has the potential to complete destroy buildings if left unchecked. It can move stones and rocks, and it will find a way around most obstacles it cannot move. It can also be devastatingly brutal, in that some vines completely strangle the life from other living plants, if not controlled.
The beauty of a vine however, is that if you control it and train or remove troublesome branches, and do this on a regular basis the vine will continue to produce fruit for many years. In fact, it is often the oldest vines that produce the best grapes, and are used as stock for the new vineyard.
Vines are extremely efficient plants, not wasting much energy in the main on growing a strong trunk, but instead using their energy, in reaching out for new territory. It remains supple and flexible in achieving this. Oh! for churches that remain supple and flexible.
I think it helps to consider the various aspects of a vine, to see that John is presenting a description of the church. Jesus is the church, we are merely parts of his body/the vine. An important point to remember however, like the image of the body, the fruit is not produced on every branch of the vine. Only certain branches produce and carry the fruit. And further, it takes the whole vine, to produce the fruit. The roots, the stem, the tendrils, the leafy branches, and the fruit bearing branches are different but essential parts of the one vine. How important it is to have pointed out to us, that it is God who is the vinegrower. That is the whole point of John's gospel. He wants us to see that Jesus's whole life, was and is, as a result of God the Father's love for His creation. We are called to be obedient to God. The vine is an excellent image used to illustrate how God's love can reach into the hearts and minds of all.
I believe pruning occurs in the church quite naturally. At times, different people arise, only to be replaced by others, and they in turn by others, so that the church is continually refreshed and trained and instructed in the way in which it can best produce what God desires of us, for each generation. This idea, that we throw people out, or that you have to get rid of people, is more often than not, judgemental intolerance. What I have trouble with, is people who remain unwilling to accept that they have passed their use by date, and try to maintain their control. The church was never meant to operate with such a system of life-time leaders. I have to wonder here about the whole issue of ordaining people for life, or of life-time tenure to a particular ministry. How often do we ourselves relinquish our place at the head, to foster a younger person. Not very often, I gamble. No wonder we get dead branches still attached to the vine.
Anyhow, these are some of my ponderings on the "true" vine.
Regards,
KGB in Aussie.
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 12:34:31
Great Suggestions on this text... DG in NYC, Thanks for the Nouwen Quote.
Like the idea that perhaps Wesley was "pruned" in Ga. for later fruitfulness. Pruning as I see it is not pleasurable at the time, but can be, and usually is very effective. I remember filling out a Div School Application. The apllication asked for my strengths and weaknesses. I knew my strengths but had trouble, at that point in my life, with what my weaknesses might be. I asked my uncle Bruce what they might be. "Do you really want to know," he asked. "Yes." I said. And them he told me, openly and honestly. It hurt... for days. But to this day I will never forget his last comment. "No one in our family would tell you these things, but they don't love you any more than I do." God used an uncle to prune me with love.
Perhaps you have been pruned by the Vinedresser and can preach out of your own experience.
thank you for this wonderful place to dialogue with fellow pastors.
asso. in nc
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 12:56:58
Thanks to you all for provocative ideas and stories. I will use the Merry Christ Moose! Special blessings on clw in co for linking Aldersgate brilliantly to the text!
My real problem in this area is twofold, and I wish someone would help me out.
(1) It is clear that we all are against the 'false solution' of human or business (or entertainment world) models for renewal/reoganization. We want a deeply spiritual renewal of our churches and denomination. But I believe many Christians come to church looking for spiritual blessings that, when you come right down to it, are little more than passing jollies. You can preach what you think is a very pointed sermon on how dead the church is and how we need to find real rootage in Christ, and you get "thank you, preacher, I really enjoyed that sermon." Good grief! If they enjoyed it they missed the point. How do we get past this superficial level of spirituality?
(2)I wonder if I am being wrong to preach pointed sermons on how dead the church is. Maybe it would be better to point out how much life there already is (people doing caring things, the success of new Bible study and discipleship training programs, etc.) In other words, a 'the cup is half full' sermon rather than a 'the cup is half empty' sermon.
Boyd in NC
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 15:01:47
to Boyd: We gain (get more flies) more with honey than with vinegar. I think you are on to something with the cup half full, rather than empty. I made a conscious change before to speak positively about the Body of Christ. To encourage rather than tear down. People respond better to building up, rather than tearing down. See Gene Getz's books on encouragement. They are good and a basis for still telling the truth, but greatly temepered with big, big doses of love. Building up others is a real key in my book.
Fellow Wanderer Thurs 10:00 AM IN time
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 15:05:11
KGB, thank you, thank you. Your insights are very helpful, indeed inspiring. Manzel
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 15:23:46
One example of pruning things to the bear bones is the film editing job done on the Jesus mini series. The mini series moved very quickly and wasted no time. It's being so consise and simple made it "speak the language" of the younger generation which includes my confirmation class.
Jesus of Nazareth, a 7 hour verson done in 1977, was in my eyes a master piece. But this version, Jesus the mini series, had more appeal to my confirmation class largely because it was pruned so much and made so consise and moved so quickly. It was not as appealing to the older members of my congregation. To some of them it seemed shallow, especially since Jesus seemed too light hearted for them.
I hope this new wine skin for the gospel will indeed be fruitful. Manzel
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 15:28:52
Dear Jude in WA
The verb translated as prune in verse 2 and cleanse in verse 3 is the same word in Greek. Besides being translated as prune and cleanse, there is also a connotation of healing.
Snow in Idaho
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 18:21:22
On pruning people from a church or denomination:
Back on May 16 at 20:30 some anonymous person wrote, among other things, about not pruning anyone from the United Methodist denomination. I was thinking way back in 1973, when I first considered going into ordained ministry. I went to speak with a seasoned veteran pastor. I asked why God allowed so many denominations to form. He said, "Different people have different needs. Last month I took a man to a small Baptist Church and introduced him to his new pastor. The man was an alcoholic and after many years of failure, I realized the man needed a more legalistic church. A church where the pastor would preach and warn the man about the fires of hell. This man simply could not handle the freedom of a huge United Methodist Church like ours." The lovinf pastor pruned the man out, to save him from burning in the hell of his miserable alcohol filled life on earth.
Over the years, I realize the pastor was right. Perhaps God has given us various denominations because various people have various needs, and will accept different things. One of the clergy at the UM General Conference seemed to said there are other churches for those who want to follow a lieralist view of the Bible. He wanted those people to leave Methodism and go to one of those denominations. This man obviously was admitting he wanted to follow the Bible as he interpreted it, not necesssarily as read literally.
Perhaps the struggle within United Methodism today is as simple as deciding who will be pruned out, those who want to follow Scripture literally or those who want to follow reason, experience and tradition even to the exclusion of Scripture.
I do agree with the book "Antagonists in the Church" which concludes in the end, after trying everything else, there are just some people in a local church that poison it to the point that they need to be pruned out. BUT: Perhaps in another church they might be grafted on and learn to love, instead of continually encouraging others to hate.
Isn't some pruning, regrettably, necessary? revup
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 19:38:49
To Jenny from WI: The hymn is written by my wife, Rolanda Schmaler Hunt. She has a BME and Masters in Music Ed from Eastern Michigan University. She is presently a part-time instructor at Ohio University - Zanesville. Thanks for asking.
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 20:08:39
Janice in Ks writes: "Perhaps there are others who could bring light to this passage by sharing knowledge about growing grapes and keeping vineyards."
O.K., it's time for me to contribute some information and not just lurk around and leach off the contributions of others. I've had some success with growing vines and making wine out here in California - with the resulting Cabernet Sauvignon often brought out for use in our weekly Alpha dinner parties =:) So here a couple of short thoughts on the subject.
First of all, it is helpful to think in terms of farming for flavor. The best vineyards allow a lot of sunshine to hit the grapes and also have roots that go down deep into the ground. In addition, soil, water and nutrients play an important part in farming for flavor. There are, of course, great analogies here to the spiritual life, but the main point is that effective pruning can "turn sunlight into wine!"
Secondly, the best grapes will be found on the vines closer to the main trunk. This goes to show how important it is to allow the Father to prune us back to our first love.
Finally, harvest timing is important. Waiting for late in the harvest to pick grapes will result in riper, more fruit-like flavors. So be patient, God's best is yet to come!
"J" in California
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 21:23:41
Friends, Thanks, A W-G rocky coast Me, CLW and others for your thoughts on Aldersgate/UMC history ideas! And the wonderful hymn will be sung in many churches this Sunday, including mine! We hardly need to read the gospel after folk sing it! Rebecca in MD
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 22:00:31
revup
Risking "personalizing" this passage, I'll share briefly how I have experienced "pruning" and "fruitfulness" this year.
I am a "recovering busy UM pastor." All the metaphors fit: plates in the air, juggling too many balls, stamping out brush fires, greasing the squeaky wheels, etc. All this time, I neglected my soul, especially in daily prayer and journaling. In the fall of '99, I decided to make daily prayer a priority, but failed miserably because the old habits die hard.
I went to our ministerial association's prayer retreat in January, as the only mainline pastor in this group of independent evangelicals. Something in my gut said, "GO!" I decided not to take my car, because the temptation to leave would be too great. I am glad I went. One day we prayed for almost ten hours together. The pastors were united in their sense of urgency of changing their habits, too. They all wanted to start their personal schedules with prayer and journaling. We covenanted together to do this.
I came back home with a changed heart. It is getting easier to pray every morning in the office before the chaos hits. But if I don't get it done, and get busy, it is remarkable how "unbalanced" I feel until I do. It is becoming as important to me as my morning cup(s) of coffee, which is saying something!
Three things have kept me at it. First, is to resolve to make it first on my list at the start of the day; make it first and you will never forget to do it. Second is to get together at least a few times a month with other pastors who devote most of their time together in prayer; we need mutual encouragement to keep at it. Third is the encouragement I've received from my congregation that has been telling me that I "positively glow!" Sermons are better, focus is clearer, energy is better. . .I even had the chance to lead a new convert in the "sinners" prayer as she gave her heart to Jesus, which was something I have rarely had the opportunity to do.
This new fruitfulness I see happening in my ministry is all coming from abiding in Christ through the spiritual discipline of daily prayer. There is no substitute. I wish it hadn't taken me ten years to figure it out. If people want to know more, I'll be glad to email with them. My address is aoppelaar@yahoo.com.
AO in PO
Date: 18 May 2000
Time: 23:09:54
My friends, I grieve for the struggles within the UMC. My own denomination (and many others)has faced similar struggles. There is a great tendency to see the issues in terms of "us" vs. "them", "right" vs. "wrong". But we must remember that it is the vinedresser who prunes, not us. We cannot prune or judge another branch. That task is already reserved for the vintner. Rather than taking sides and casting issues into votes for or against, perhaps we should seek ways to find consensus, and discern God's will rather than try to impose our own. And remember that we are ALL branches, Jesus is the vine. Charlie Ellis CC(DOC) in VA
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 00:07:30
To KGB in Aussie I second Manzel's "Thank you. Thank you." LPinPA
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 02:25:59
"Isn't some pruning necessary, regrettable, necessary? revup" I'm bothered by the limited choices you offer-"those who want to follow Scripture literally or those who want to follow reason, experience and tradition even to the exclusion of Scripture." I consider neither of these to be the standards I would use. Does that prune me and all of those who would have similar reservations? (I did notice the "perhaps" which may give your comment a more playful and less stringent tone.) But Bishop Carder who in my mind is a very bright, moderate, Biblically literate leader of our denomination says this: "United Methodists beleive that the Bible is primary in matters of faith; its authority lies in the Living Word to which the Bible bears witness. It is not the verbal inspiration or factual accuracy that gives the bible authority. God's revelation, supremely given in Christ, is the Bible's source of authority...United Methodists take the Bible with utmost seriousness even though many do not take it literally." He then procedes to consider the appropriate use of the Bible as theology, and the relationships with experience, reason, and tradition. (Quotes taken from his book, "Living Our Beliefs" from Discipleship Resources in Nashville). He takes a position that I personally agree with and find widely held within others in our denomination, including my reading of our theological statement in the Book of Discipline. Just pondering your comment. Rev. John from Cumming 1st UMC, Cumming, Ga.
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 11:09:08
The vine, God's artery of love, peace, and joy. Given to us in the life of Jesus Christ. Can we have a good life without good oxygen and good water, can we have a good life without the Good News. And if the pumpkin becomes unattached from the vine, just if we come unnattached, sure doom (rot). Hook up to the good vine of Jesus Christ and live. God's peace. jcny
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 12:55:37
Ah! Pruning. Well I for one am very cautious about "pruning". I became this way from a rather real and yes humourous experience. My wife had turned our back yard into a virtual garden and how she loved her roses. One fall she asked to cut them back in preparation for winter. Wanting something to do on my day off I agreed and had her show me the proper heigth. Later that day when she arrived home she came into the house in tears after examining her "garden". "What did you do to my lovely Rose of Sharon?", she asked. " I pruned it just like you told me." I proudly replied. Little did I know that it wasn't a rose and my pruning destroyed it. From then on, it has been my intent to let God do the pruning because a rose by any other name is not always a rose. Happy preaching. Deke of the North
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 14:07:07
Hi Friends,
As a UMC pastor and Elder I have strong feelings about our recent General Conference -- but I do not feel this forum appropriate for sharing them.
Instead, perhaps I can share some experience from my 2nd appointment in the Finger LAkes Region in Central NY.
My congregation was almost entirely made up of vinyardests. They grew grapes for a living and sold them to Welches and to several wineries.
In the winter months these hardy souls prune their grape vines to the point where one might think them mad. There is nearly nothing left of the plant after pruning save a spindly, dry dead looking branch.
In the spring new growth begins. By this time -- Mid May -- the plants begin to fill out and green up.
Soon a second pruning will take place. Grapes produce 3 buds each spring they are called the Primary, Secondary and Terchary buds (1,2 &3). The vinedresser will skillfully prune off the secondary and terchary buds so that the Primary bud will receive all of the goodness the vine can carry to it. This makes for sweeter bigger grapes. One thing that struck me as I learned about this art of growing grapes is that the things pruned in the spring pruning are not bad, evil or ungrape. the 2nd and 3rd buds would have born grapes - not oranges or worse asparagus. They would have yielded grapes. But the vinedressers, to ensure the best grapes, puts the focus of the vine into the primary bud.
A previous comment about refocusing to morning prayer sounds like pruning of other things - even good things - to focus on the best thing, abiding in Christ.
I hope this rambling is helpful to someone.
As a foot note - Remember friends when God arrives on the scene, God does not take sides God takes over!!
Shalom, Pastor Bill a UM from NY
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 15:53:54
Hey Bill in NY Not everyone lives in one of the most beautiful places in the world. I grew up near Canandaigua. If you look beyond the back fences, you will find that there are grapevines or grape arbors in almost every back yard. The fruit of those vines went for pies and juice. Some of my best memories are of making grape jelly on hot fall days. Those vines were hearty- they survived merciless winters and prunings. They were not the fragile hybrids that are planed in the vineyards. These were are the war horses of vines. Some of the grapes went for homemade wine. Welch's began business to give the teetotalers access to grape juice that was unfermented all year long. (It is still the best.) I like to imagine those vines as Christ's Body. Through the hard times, God is there, holding on. The root draws from the past - and the spirit which passes through, creates new growth. As a UM clergy, I get concerned with those who focus only who can come to church or who will get into the kingdom. When they could be focusing on their own journey. Peace, PS in Ia
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 16:59:16
It strikes me that this passage is found amidst the farwell discourse in John - the message Jesus shares with his disciples on the eve of his crucifixion. He shares with them the 'best last words' he can in order to prepare them for the hard but joyous journey before them as his disciples... In light of that consider this:
True vine - I guess there's a whole lot of vines out there we could be connected to (some even fruit bearing) - but Christ is the TRUE vine, the model vine, the authentic vine. It is important for us as pastors perhaps to give voice to the connectedness. How do we stay connected to the TRUE vine? First we must realize why we exist at all. In 14:28 Jesus says "the Father is greater than I.' Jesus is reminding us here, that God is the source and guiding hand governing every aspect of Jesus' work. It is God who cares for the wellbeing of the whole plant...
Relationship - The vine needs the branches; the branches need the vine (fruit doesn't grow on the vine); and the vinedresser needs both. There is in the community of faith a built in dependence of relationship between God, Christ (who is the Church) and believers as disciples. In order for that relationship to be vital, careful attention to growth is necessary.
Abide: When we live in this relationship - when we abide/remain/dwell with the vine, we are nurtured, we are cared for, we are in communion with Christ and we share in the same life source. When we abide in Jesus we grow together with him and we bear fruit that shows what vine we are connected to. But being fruitful means that we will be subject to pruning.
Pruning is essential: Pruning keeps a plant from going wild. It disciplines, shapes, trains the plant; and most importantly, that kind of care results in visible strengths(fruits). Jesus says in vs. 3 "You are already pruned by the WORD I have spoken to you." This pruning/cleansing means staying in relationship with Jesus and his word. This relationship is key to bearing the fruit of God which is love.
Can anyone help me finish this analogy: "Pruning is to gardening as ..."
I'm preaching this text for a "Homecoming" service. So the connection theme seems so appropriate because folks are coming to worship because of their 'connections' - with their family, the community (church), or their roots. I want them to leave knowing also that they are nothing without first understanding their connectedness to the true vine, which is Christ himself. Fran
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 16:59:52
Since this Scripture is about being "connected," I noticed that three words tell us how to remain connected -- not only as servants, but as friends. ABIDE, OBEY, LOVE. Though I am not prone to notice such things, I couldn't help but see the AOL there (America On-Line). A.O.L. -- connects people to each other on the Internet. AOL -- tells how we remain connected to Christ. I am using Easter 5 and 6 texts this week (John 15:1-17). Revmar in KS
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 19:26:15
Someone asked about connections to graduation. It's graduation Sunday here, too. I titled the message "Branching Out" an idea from the Whole People of God lesson for this week. Going to play with the connection between being "at home" and being "out in the world" and the need to stay connected to the vine. Sometimes I use more than one text and may also refer to the Acts text and the eagerness of people "out in the world" to hear the Good News from us. CAL in IA
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 20:40:00
What about connecting pruning with surgery? Surgery often causes pain to produce a positive result. Pruning also appears to cause pain but is done to produce a positive result. Both procedures are done to enhance life.
Kent in Ohio
Date: 19 May 2000
Time: 20:49:30
Several people have asked for definitions of 'prune' and 'clean'. In Greek the word for both was catharsis: 'purge' 'purgative' or even 'sneeze.' Anyone see a way to work this into a sermon? "You have already been purged by the Word?" It may suggest that by the hearing of the Word we are ourselves purged from other vines and grafted onto the true vine. I read somewhere that the delicate, hybrid vines of Europe were all dying of some root rot, until it was discovered that they could be grafted onto hardy wild root stock from America, native Catawba grapes or something. But to bring grafting into the text introduces a whole new idea, totally different from the way we have been thinking about this text. (Although a similar idea occurs in Paul's letters.) I would probably stick with the idea that hearing the Word purges us from things that keep us from bearing fruit, as was suggested by several contributors.
Again, Shalom Boyd in NC
Date: 20 May 2000
Time: 02:20:46
Hey Back PS in Ia,
I was in Branchport and Bluff Point, ever hear of them? I bet you have. In the late September early October morning the smell of grapes can make my mouth water just driving through the towns. I am in the Adirondacks now.
Have you ever had Grape Ketchup? Not my favorite, but when God gives you grapes . . .
I agree that we need to spend more energy on the gift of Christ than the struggles of our own humanity.
I was glad to hear from a tansplanted Laker.
Shalom - Pastor Bill a UM from NY
Date: 20 May 2000
Time: 03:43:26
When I lived near Napa, California, my neighbor owned a vineyard and took me to visit. It was "pruning" time, and he asked if I wanted to try my hand at it. I said, "Sure!" I took the big pruning shears and used them like cuticle nippers. "NO! NO! NO! When you prune, you must prune aggressively!" Does this speak to anyone? Toni WV
Date: 20 May 2000
Time: 04:16:31
Well, I just finished my sermon. I actually used a couple of OT passages from Isaiah - Isaiah 5 and ll, the first talking about how Israel was the vineyard of God and the second talking about the stump of Jesse and the Branch that comes from it. In fact all through the OT, Israel is referred to as the vine, which falls short. Which leads nicely into this passage - where the "true vine" does not fall short.
Also, I can't remember where I read it in my preparation, but somewhere is the discussion of "sucker shoots" which grow out from the place where branches attach themselves to the vine. These "sucker shoots" divert the fruit-making energy of the branches into foliage-making activity. A good vine tender knows to immediately cut out these shoots so that the vine will produce fruit rather than foliage.
But the other interesting thing about the "sucker shoots" is that at the point where they grow, where the branch attaches to the vine, dirt and depris tend to accumulate. And this dirt and depris often attract disease to the vine, and if not removed, the vine can actually be damaged to the point that it dies. So when the vine tender removes the "sucker shoots", he is also "cleansing" the vine from potential disease.
Don't you love the notion of "sucker shoots?" How often are we suckered into activity that looks good, but actually detracts us from our spiritual growth and diverts us from producing good spiritual fruit.
Lots of good food for thought. To prune the sucker shoots is to cleanse the vine.
Jude in Wash
Date: 20 May 2000
Time: 12:55:08
To Rebecca in MD and all you other UM folks,
I am not a UM, but an RC, and have no answer to your question. Obviously, the unity of the church is envisioned and experienced far differently for RC's and UM's. Please know that there are lots of us non-UM's out here praying for you, and I'm one of them.
Metz in IN
Date: 20 May 2000
Time: 14:59:27
Pruning is to gardening as discipline is to excellence. Or pruning is to gardening as discipline is to health. Or pruning is to gardening as teaching is to wisdom.
Jude in Wash
Date: 20 May 2000
Time: 23:04:10
Pruning is to gardening as cleansing is to wholeness...