Date: 3/9/2003
Time: 5:25:17 PM
A great promise, who wouldn't want the creator of the universe to promise us great blessings, but just look at all that happens before God finally keeps his word! God's promise doesn't lead Abraham into a bed of roses. He spends a lifetime struggling through the thorns.
Abraham has to "keep his eyes on the prize" for a long time, through many tight situations. He tries to hurry the promise along by bearing a child by means of Hagar, but it doesn't work when he tries to do it himself.
He is an old man before a glimer of the promise comes to be, and at his death he is still far from seeing the multitudes and nations that God had enticed him to envision. He has only son by Sarah, and the only land that he holds the deed to in the promised land is a gravesite.
God has to fulfill God's promise in God's way at God's time. Faith is in what is not yet, but gives us courage and strength to follow now. The struggle and wait did not invalidate God's word. His promise did come true.
...Just a few early thoughts...
SS in PA
Date: 3/10/2003
Time: 5:23:27 PM
Part Two Convenant: Last Week Noah and sons and all the animals. Now Abram, Abraham... Notice Sarai, Sarah...women included herecovenent not only for men but women!
And we all know the Nations he fathered...In fact, We, the USA will be going to war will one or two of abraham's children in near future.
Something I just now, thought of, correllation between Isreal,Iraq today and back to Cain and Abel. Abel-isreal feavored, chosen? no just obedient to God's law. rebellious Cain--->Iraq... just food for thought
Date: 3/10/2003
Time: 6:31:45 PM
TO the commentator who attempted to make a corelation between Isreal& Iraq to Cain & Abel please be a little more sensitive and maybe use Ishmael & Isaac.As christians we are to be on the forefront of seeking to bring peace to the troubles of the world to do this we need to be fair, sensitive and wellinformed on the various sides of the struggles.By doing this our congregations trust us not only about the things of this world but the promised Kingdom of GOd. Rev.AJ from the Caribbean
Date: 3/11/2003
Time: 10:11:16 AM
TO REV AJ, I WASNT PLANNING ON EVEN USING THAT STATEMENT IN PULPIT! I JUST THOUGHT OF IT , LIKE TO MYSELF... WAS a THOUGHT TO ME PERSONALLY. I just thought i'd share it here... just to see if other 'professionals' maybe thought that. Yeah Ismeal and Issac are traditional. But, your suggestion is JUST AS INSENSITIVE so TOUCHE! have you not ever read a passage and got a thought just for yourself that wasnt for sermon! SHeesh! YOU ARE VERY JUDGEMENTAL! YOU SIR ARE THE INSENSITIVE ONE trying to hurt another's feelings in a post. Perhaps you should have worded is different??? Like you know, I can see how you can correlate that thought...and then ask are you using this in your message or was it revelation just for you? Then one could have answered you back with a NO. Has anyone else ever told you that you are insensitive and judgemental? you jumped the gun to accuse me of something I wasnt even planning on doing! You are very intellect and observant and seem caring not to want people hurt... But you better learn to be tolerant and chose your words better...Pastor in OHIO
Date: 3/11/2003
Time: 10:27:28 AM
Rev AJ, I understand your desire to use Ishmael and Isaac (I don't think AJ was trying to be insensitive, just offering a suggestion). My concern would be that we not automatically assume that the United States is the one that is obeying God and in good stead with God and that Iraq is disobedient and out of favor. In Genesis 17:18 and following God also promises to bless Ishmael (from whom Muslims consider themselves descended), so scripture does not appear to lead us to unequivocally favor Isaac over Ishmael. One of the aspects of this text that I find interesting is in the very first verse where God tells Abram "walk before me and be blameless." It reminds me of Jesus telling us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. Obviously, no one is blameless his entire life or perfect, but God doesn't back off on the demand. And yet there is always that strong current of grace supporting us, carrying us along, forgiving us when we are to blame, when we are imperfect. Somehow the tone of this text seems imply that it is not too much to ask for God to say "be blameless" and that request then gives a feeling of confidence that we can try to walk before God and be blameless. After all God is watching, and not watching simply to judge or to condemn, but to help us in our "walk." PKH in NC
Date: 3/11/2003
Time: 10:30:19 AM
The "take up your cross and follow me" of the gospel seems to be a 180-degree turnaround. Wonder what changed? Human nature certainly didn't, nor did God's nature. Why the turn-around, I wonder?
Sally in GA
Date: 3/11/2003
Time: 1:41:01 PM
Dear Pastor in Ohio,
I really appreciate your passion about this subject, but I hope that you don't become too upset about the comments of other people in this forum. Others have every right, just as you do, to express their opinions and, more importantly, their exegetical thoughts regarding the passage of the week. I don't think that Rev. AJ meant any harm by what s/he said; in fact, I always appreciate it when fellow clergy practice full accountability with me. To all DPSers, let's play on the same team! We are one in the Spirit...Pastor ERH
Date: 3/11/2003
Time: 3:31:21 PM
Here is a great prayer from the Iona Community
Prayer for Peace with Iraq Lord of hope and compassion, Friend of Abraham Who called our father in faith to journey to a new future, We remember before you the country of Iraq from which he was summoned Ancient land of the Middle East, realm of the two rivers, Birthplace of great cities and of civilization. May we who name ourselves children of Abraham, Call to mind all the peoples of the Middle East who honour him as father. Those who guard and celebrate the Torah, Those for whom the Word has walked on earth and lived among us Those who follow their prophet, who listened for the word in the desert And shaped a community after what he heard. Lord of reconciliation, God of the painful sacrifice uniting humankind We long for the day when you will provide for all nations of the earth your blessing of peace. But now when strife and war are at hand, help us to see in each other a family likeness, our inheritance from our one father Abraham. Keep hatred from the threshhold of our hearts, and preserve within us a generous spirit which recognizes in both foe and friend a common humanity. This we ask in the name of the one who came to offer us the costly gift of abundant life. (In Arabic Abraham is often called "El Khalil" which means 'the Friend [of God]'. Ur and Haran, the cities from which, according to Genesis, Abraham was summond by God both lie within the territory of modern Iraq.) (Alan and Clare Amos) Iona Community – http://www.iona.org.uk/
Blessings, Petereo
Date: 3/11/2003
Time: 7:56:10 PM
The Rev. Doug Peters, from the Iowa area of the UMC's I believe wrote a nice tribute to Abram and Sarah... I have the cassette tape... "The Songs of Abraham"
I don't have the lyrics written down, but from my head I remember the following and they might not be in the right order, and there are others... but here's what I recall...
Life insurance is a must we must protect our child, and hospital costs at a 100 must be just wild. Blue cross and blue shield they say is quite a pair... but doctor if you please send our bill to Medicare.
You said, go where I tell you leave right away, it so very smart for us to question what you say, but I think this is the best joke, I have heard in years and as soon as I stop laughing I'll dry away these tears.
"Perhaps he'll have her skin and perhaps he'll have my hair, that rinkled baulding baby will have features so fair.
You said, go where I tell you leave right away, it so very smart for us to question what you say, but I think this is the best joke, I have heard in years and as soon as I stop laughing I'll dry away these tears.
Now Sarah is 90 and there's not much we can afford, I hope hospital costs are cheaper in the geriatrics ward... you said, go where I tell you leave right away, it so very smart for us to question what you say, but I think this is the best joke, I have heard in years and as soon as I stop laughing I'll dry away these tears.
You said, go where I tell you leave right away, it so very smart for us to question what you say, but I think this is the best joke, I have heard in years and as soon as I stop laughing I'll dry away these tears. ... it goes on to after the birth of Isaac... "My little boy, my squinting eyes can barely see, your outstretched hands to me, and I must look like a dried up brook... a weathered crooked tree what do you think of me?"... I'm searching for a website so you can all enjoy this wonderful music sharing the Gospel.
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/12/2003
Time: 10:54:55 AM
I'm thinking about names and what they mean to us, say about us. Many surnames have come from professions or identification with one's forebears. Some people, whose forebears were forcibly brought to this continent, have lost touch with the family names that they would've carried, if that cruelty hadn't existed. What an ongoing injustice!
Then, I think of nicknames; I've jotted down a list of nicknames that aren't derived from one's real name, like "Dotty" or "Smitty," but which describe the person in some way.
The pericope introduces a new name for God, and has God initiating a change for the two main characters. "Abraham" takes on a broader perspective than "Abram" -- indicating his relationship with nations of peoples, and not just a relationship with God or a family. "Sarai" and "Sarah" mean the same thing, but "Sarah" is less archaic. Perhaps that implies freshness. Perhaps Abraham's new name, and Sarah's, also go along with the fact that now, they're on a mission.
In the New Testament, especially Acts, it's stressed that we do work in Jesus' name. In fact, that's how we end prayers. I don't think, as a 21st century person, I can fully appreciate what that meant to the ancient people, but to me, it means that we are doing Jesus' work, taking his place in the world. And, that can unite us if we let it.
As a Lenten reflection, perhaps we could think about the things we bear that might identify us as Christians (also being aware that the verses about circumcision were not included in the lectionary). If you could choose a nickname for yourself that associates you with your personal mission statement, what would it be? As I formulate a message for Sunday, I'm relating that aspect of our identity with the covenant that God keeps offering. MTSOfan
Date: 3/12/2003
Time: 11:17:31 AM
The silence of Abram in this reading is deafening! God begins to speak to him again after thirteen years of silence following attempt on Abram's and Sarai's part to fulfill God's promise on their own.
His waiting is full of pathos and failure, yet God does not let him go. Everything seems to be in the future. When will God act?
tom in ga
Date: 3/12/2003
Time: 8:33:02 PM
Just a follow up... I found Doug Peters for those who care to hear more... I emailed him to see if he still sings... found him on the Iowa "NET"...
Anyone interested can email me and I'll let you contact him...
I think it'd be well worth it...
pulpitt in ND or pulpitt@702com.net
Date: 3/13/2003
Time: 1:38:49 AM
Dear Friends in the Faith; here are some of my early musings, combining Romans and Genesis passages. Does anyone connect these two in preaching for this sunday besides me?
Abraham’s covenant with God was based on a decision by God to offer it; and a decision by Abraham to accept it in faith. The only collateral he had was God’s promise. Beyond that, he simply had to believe. Paul tells the Romans that Abraham did not have any standing in God’s eyes by following the law, but by believing God’s promises. This faith made him righteous in God’s sight. Likewise, we must believe before we see God’s promise fulfilled. We can have a close, fulfilling relationship with God when we simply put our trust in Christ for our forgiveness, and our salvation (Ro.4:25).
Jeff in NY
Date: 3/13/2003
Time: 6:10:00 AM
Jeff, I thought about trying to connect the two. Lately, I have found myself guilty of getting my spiritual water out of the NT well a bit more frequently than I'd like. Hence, I will read the Genesis passage as the "official" text. I may end up referencing Romans a bit later. MTSOfan, I appreciated your thoughts on the names. I had already decided on a sermon title "A New Promise, A New Name". I hadn't so much considered the importance of the name itself as much as the transformation. However, with your permission, I'd like to use both points. Blessings to you all. Rich in BAMA
Date: 3/13/2003
Time: 6:33:51 AM
This is the second time that God offers to make Abraham a great nation. The first time is in Genesis 12 and it is to Abraham alone. Now, in Genesis 17, after the birth of Ishmael, Sarah is expressly mentioned. It is not Abraham's only son which fulfills the promise (HE has two) but Sarah's.
Why is God so interested in remembering Sarah? She is certainly not depicted as a saint. It is Sarah in Ch. 16 who makes the match between her husband and slave girl that results in Ishmael. It is Sarah who in Ch. 21 sends Hagar and Ishmael away.
I see a connection, not with the lectionary epistle, but with Romans 5. The idea that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, not because we were righteous. God worked through Sarah not because she was better. God's work through sinners, or old infertile womene, makes it abundantly clear that it is God at work, and God's grace that prevails.
Abraham is a model of faithfulness. But it is through Sarah that God's glory is revealed.
LM in PA
Date: 3/13/2003
Time: 7:58:02 AM
Glad to help, Rich -- I figure that's what we're all here for! MTSOfan
Date: 3/13/2003
Time: 5:06:23 PM
MTSOfan--glad to have the input on "names," the connection I had planned to make for this week. There is power in naming, whether helpful or hurtful. Can you remember how it felt to be teased as a kid? Or the names we have called those who were "other?" Most recently I had the experience of teaching in China. It was great to see how my students delighted in choosing their English names--names that they will continue to use in their professional lives. Today I received a pin with the name and picture of an Iraqi child on it. Accompanying it is a prayer to say each day. Would that all children of Abraham be known to each other by name. Bai Lin
Date: 3/14/2003
Time: 2:43:50 PM
Covenant part two this week, Abram- God made covenant with Isreal but also Arab-Iraq. all the descendents... But, this jumps out. In our patriarchial society., God does include woman as equal in covenant...it's here in verse 15 Thru Sarah we women will be blessed! Covenant to ALL. No matter what gender... OK I have been studying systematic theology again and Feminist/Eschatology..lol Pastor Mary from Ohio
Date: 3/15/2003
Time: 3:56:38 AM
I am actually using a different passage, but still with Abraham. (Genesis chap 15),
I am looking for a video clip to help me. Any ideas ?
The Genesis bit goes something like this
Hopeless situation, no children.
God makes a promise to Abram, to give him and Sarai a child Abram does not believe
God makes the promise again Abram believes!
The question is, why does he believe the second time ?
It is not for anything new that God has done! God has pointed him ti the stars, but not actually changed Abram's situation!
Abram responds with faith simply because he now believes!
Can anyone think of a clip to illustrate this ?
Jonathan in Beverley UK
Date: 3/15/2003
Time: 5:24:31 PM
Are the names changed to protect the innocent..... wouldn't it be nice to have the past wiped away and a new name.. new identity........ well, we do... isn't that wonderful?