Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 21:39:33
I will only point out that we do ourselves a great disservice when we attempt to hide the fact, taught for years in seminaries, that these stories, the creation stories (there are two) are ancient Isreal's mythic explaination of the natural world around them. That God figures clearly in them is testament to their faith, which I follow, but with common sense.
PC
Date: 19 May 2002
Time: 21:34:06
PC, I beg to differ. There is only one genesis story in Genesis. Chapter 2 is a geneology story. It is the family history of one particular lineage from which the Jewish people claim descent.
And while Chapter 1 certainly is mythic, it is also stunningly accurate in the creation order that science would many generations later discover and name evolution. How lucky, if not downright ironic. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 20 May 2002
Time: 04:24:50
PC
Never having been to seminary I have neither the benefit nor the handicap of such instruction (you may choose which it is). To describe this story as "myth" is interesting since the word "myth" does not preclude its truth, but merely speaks of its supernatural nature. In that sense, I agree.
tom in TN - I, in fact, see three accounts although, like you, I see them as parallel. The first is Gen. 1:1. That's it. End of story. The heavens and earth are created. The next account is 1:2 - 2:3. This is the specific account of the creation of earth. Following, 2:3 - 11:32, is the specific account of the creation of man on the earth. Following that, 12:1 - the rest of the Old Testament, deals with God's dealings with one man, Abraham, and his descendants. As the focus gets narrower, the accounts get longer. You can write a paragraph about a lake, and a book on the contents of a single drop of water.
I preached on this some time ago, and if I may, let me share these thoughts on the lessons this passage teaches.
First, this passage teaches us that God is creator. Creation was not "luck" or a "mistake" or a cosmic fluke, but it was with a plan. And it was done with wisdom (see Proverbs 3:19-20). If God so wisely created and now guides the universe, cannot His wisdom guide our lives?
Secondly, man is a special creation. Notice, when God makes something in this passage, it says, "Then (or And) God said, 'Let there be...'" or something similar (let the earth, let the waters, etc.) (vv. 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24). However, when God makes man, He says "Let us make..." Here we see the relationship God wants to have with man. Man is made differently from the rest of creation; man is made for relationship with the Creator.
Finally, this story points us to Christ (John 1:1-5; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2) in whom man can ultimately attain that relationship with God.
Hope this helps.
JG in WI
Date: 20 May 2002
Time: 06:43:22
JG in WI, Thanks for pointing out that difference between "Let there be..." and "Let Us make..." I can't beleive I never noticed that.
The rest of it may have been sub-contracted out, God giving the plan and parameters, but when it came to us God said "I'll do it ourselves." We're a hands-on project, God's "signature piece". Back in the Renaissance, master painters might do only two or three key elements of a large painting, leaving the rest to apprentices, though the master would direct and correct until their work fit his vision. In the end the whole would bear his signature but careful study will show more deft brushwork or subtlety of color or purity of form in the primary subject. God caused to be created a beautiful background and setting in which the Masters own hands created the divine self-portrait, made "in our own image."
That's neat to think about. Thanks. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 20 May 2002
Time: 07:06:24
This being Trinity Sunday and memorial Day Sunday. People will be remembering there passing relatives... Decoration Day appalachian people call it. This Scripture seems appropriate to the occasion. Now, that we have done the Advent-Lenten-Easter-Ascension-Pentecost (the major seasons of the Church) Trinity Sunday is the last Sunday for a while to change altar clothes--then we celebrate "ordinary time" Ordinary Time- could bring out the 7th day imaging here... God rested...we wait...for the next step... As I was reflecting on that...I thought, hmmmm biblical Prophecy right here and it connects with Revelation... 1 day is like 1000 years to God, right. well God Rested 1000 years let His Creation Flourish Then the serpent enters...near end of 1000 or right after? See this Reveltion correllation... At the End of the 1000 year reign, serpent loosed for a short time to test those who never knew tribulation....trial or refining... God Allowed the serpent in both places...Why? Because Mankind had to be tried, refined...to see if would remain true to Lord. Just some wonderings here... Ladypreacher on OHIO
Date: 20 May 2002
Time: 13:41:48
Mythic stories usually answer questions. The creation story is not for answering when and how God created the world. IT IS great for dealing with the question" why? Especially since after each phase of the creation, God looks at it and says "that is good". Why is there land? Why is there light? Why is there mankind? What is the purpose? What is its value? These are great questions for graduation day and for memorial day! Manzel
Date: 20 May 2002
Time: 13:45:33
why? Order out of Kaos. That is a great theme for graduation too.
Date: 21 May 2002
Time: 05:33:05
My hope with this week's reading is to concentrate on 1:31-2:4 - the importance of Sabbath. Memorial Day weekend around here always indicates the unofficial start of summer. We used to talk about the lazy, hazy days of summer. "Summertime and the living is easy" HA! Summer winds up being as busy as any other time of the year. WE NEED TO SLOW DOWN and enjoy the creation. Psalm 8 plays right into this because it is a contemplative psalm about the wonder of creation and our relationship to the creator.
Date: 21 May 2002
Time: 05:34:49
My hope with this week's reading is to concentrate on 1:31-2:4 - the importance of Sabbath. Memorial Day weekend around here always indicates the unofficial start of summer. We used to talk about the lazy, hazy days of summer. "Summertime and the living is easy" HA! Summer winds up being as busy as any other time of the year. WE NEED TO SLOW DOWN and enjoy the creation. Psalm 8 plays right into this because it is a contemplative psalm about the wonder of creation and our relationship to the creator. Reverend KJ
Date: 21 May 2002
Time: 09:03:20
A caveat, coming from my own experience. Be judicious in your use of the literary term "myth." I got into a sticky situation once when it got around that "Preacher says creation is a myth." (and, I swear I'm not making this up - there are people who have told me that the devil put the dinosaur bones in the ground to trick us into thinking up evolution). Regardless of how creation came, Scripture is clear tht it came about by God's very hand.
For inspiration, listen to Handel's "The Creation." (I can't think of a specific recording to recommend, but I suggest a large chorus). It's an easy work, so most choirs would do a fair-to-middlin' job with it. When the firmament is displayed, it's chorally awesome.
Sally in GA
Date: 21 May 2002
Time: 09:26:34
OK - one more post, and then I've really gotta go!
Something jogged my thought-processes to "The Giving Tree" by Shel Silverstein. An initial reading reveals a touching story of a tree that keeps on giving throughout a boy's life, even to the point of letting the boy cut it down to shelter him. The darker side of that is that it's a story about a selfish, disrespectful individual who takes and takes from the tree while giving almost nothing in return.
Do we treat God's creation that way: take and take and give little back, other than a recycled newspaper or two? And that's to say nothing about our "take - take - take" relationship with God. I'll take the salvation but not what comes with it, but thanks for the offer! To incorporate the Gospel lesson, With discipleship comes a commission and a command to obey Jesus' commandments (but I thought he only gave one).
Sally in GA
Date: 21 May 2002
Time: 10:43:11
Sally, I've heard the piece about the dinosaur bones, too. Wow! MTSOfan
Date: 21 May 2002
Time: 14:36:42
Sally in GA, I never thought of using "The Giving Tree" in that way. Actually, I may change my order some. Perhaps, and I am thinking on my keyboard here, I will read the scriptures, then read the story to the children and take off on the sermon from the backside of "The Giving Tree." Hmmm! lp in CO
Date: 21 May 2002
Time: 19:25:02
If you've done the stewardship program called "Steward," (Abingdon Press), chapter two of the participants' book has some stuff that may be helpful. Also, on the video tape, the Native American story of how the Turtle Clan got its name is a great way to illustrate the interdependence of humanity and the rest of creation. I'm planning to show the Turtle Clan story during our contemporary service. MTSOfan
Date: 22 May 2002
Time: 09:16:52
MTSO fan - no kidding! I thought it might be a rural Georgia thing.
Sally
Date: 22 May 2002
Time: 11:55:43
To JG in WI and anyone else. Biblical scholarship doesn't always translate into preaching very well, however, some material is just helpful as back ground.
(Anchor Bible commentary on Genesis)E. A. Speiser believes that the first creation account goes back to the Mesopotamian material. Mesopotamian verson of the origins of the earth is found in the Enuma eliš "When on High" . The details correspond to the Genesis account, the order of events is the same. Heidel gives the following correspondances:
Enuma eliš 1. Divine spirit and cosmic matter are c coexistant and coeternal 2. Primeval chaos; Ti'amat enveloped in darkness 3. Light emanating from the gods 4. The creation of the firmament 5. The creation of the dry land 6. The creation of the luminaries 7. The creation of man 8. The gods rest and celebrate Genesis 1. Divine spirit creates cosmic matter and exists independently of it 2. The earth is desolate waste(tohuw bohuw), with darkness covering the deep (tehom) 3. Light created 4. The creation of the firmament 5. The creation of the dry land 6. The creation of the luminaries 7. The creation of man 8. God rests and sanctifies the seventh day
The Babylonian accounts predate the Biblical account. The Babylonian creation story features a succession of various rival deities. The Biblical verson is dominated by the monotheistic concept of God in the absolute sense of the term.
Most scholars who accept higher criticism agree that this first account comes from the Priestly source. The Priestly writers intent was to form a Creed which stated that God (Elohim) not the Babylonian gods created the heavens and the earth. The point is not whether this account of creation conforms to the scientific data of today, but what it meant to, and how it was arrived at by, the writer. (my footnote numbers disappeared!) Speiser, E.A., Genesis, The Anchor Bible Doubleday & Co., Inc., Garden City, NY, 1964 p. 8-11 Pritchard, J. B. , editor, Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, 2nd edition, 1955, p. 60-72 Heidel, The Babylonian Genesis, p. 129 Spieser, p. 9
Sue in Cuba, KS
Date: 22 May 2002
Time: 12:01:06
Sue in Cuba, KS
Thanks for your efforts.
JG in WI
Date: 22 May 2002
Time: 12:13:09
My commentary (Brueggemann) states that this text is not history or myth but poetry and proclamation. This is God's people's understanding of the way God is in relation to her creation. This understanding is the basis of a faith in a grace-filled God of blessing and this understanding shapes our reality and our response to God's creation. Too bad so few understand Genesis in this way. Nina in the North
Date: 22 May 2002
Time: 13:04:43
Sally, I heard it from a great aunt when I was growing up in the suburbs of Philadelphia! :) MTSOfan
Date: 22 May 2002
Time: 16:32:41
Nina, It is absolutely absurd to try to change God into “she” especially during the week we try to speak about Trinitarian theology. In relation to humanity, God has chosen to be identified as “Father.” The Incarnation is contingent on God being “Father”. Jesus is God and Jesus is human. Therefore in the relationship with God and humans, God assumes and relates in the masculine role. Mary (humanity) is mother. Jesus is Son.
Lead God’s people not into heresy. Goddess worship is simply unbiblical.
Date: 22 May 2002
Time: 21:51:41
To the poster who mentioned Goddess worship as heresy:
God is neither male nor female. I prefer to use no pronouns at all for God, for God is more than male and more than female. (More even than male and female together.) The Father language for God is good for personifying the loving relationship God wishes to have with us, but does not make God male. Neither does God's nurturing aspect and the image of the mother hen make God female.
We baptize in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, but please, let us not fall to the heresy of limiting God to maleness, or femaleness, or even human-ness.
I once had to challenge a woman who wanted her "daughters to grow up knowing that God is a woman." (her words) In my understanding, this is double heresy, because it recognizes the error in limiting God by saying "God is a man," and then states the same error by saying "God is a woman."
Jesus was male. He had to be one or the other. But God is not limited to maleness or femaleness.
I choose to interpret Nina's post as a corrective against the falsities of seeing God as merely male, and not as a proclamation that God is female. Nina may correct me if I am wrong.
Forgive the ramblings. I probably could have said this with fewer words, or I may need more to defend myself later, but here it is.
Michelle
Date: 23 May 2002
Time: 08:47:38
If anyone can get ahold of Walter Wink's discussion about the Babylonian creation myth (the Imega Esish--I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong), it would work well in a sermon on this text. In short, the Imega Elish talks about the cosmos being created through war and murder among the gods. The creation story (stories) was written in response to it. Dr. Wink' work on this might apply to the story in Genesis 2, but I'm fudging and applying it to chapter 1.
His treatment on that is probably found in one of his books in the "Powers" trilogy. I heard it in a lecture and was lucky enough to buy a recording.
With all the violence and chaos in the world today, we need to remember that we were created not by violence, but by breath and divine energy, and called "good" by our Creator. That goes well with Peace with Justice Sunday. Not sure about Memorial Day. Death redeemed?
sybil in KS (which might end up in NC if the wind keeps blowing like it is!!!!)
Date: 23 May 2002
Time: 12:52:31
Sybil in KS--This is irrelevant, but wanted you to know I laughed out loud about your wind comment. I live in MO, and KS always sends us the wind. I'll take it it's on its way. Maybe we can hit the Carolinas for a vacation. RevSteph:)
Date: 23 May 2002
Time: 15:50:10
Thanks to you all for your insightful and helpful comments on this text. Thanks especially to Michelle for your helpful and loving comments about our 'naming' of God. On that same note, i have noticed in the past and this week that some of y'all are using the term 'man' or 'mankind' to refer to the whole of humanity. While i understand these terms are a part of our linguistic tradition, i find that in the year 2002 they are outdated, unhelpful, and reflect a particularly paternalistic understanding of humanity. i have found that in my congregation, as i have modelled the use of 'humankind' and 'humanity', the women in particular have felt more empowered and valued, and we have all been given the opportunity to honor the fullness of our createdness as human beings. Just a friendly suggestion to begin using 'human' language, instead of 'man' language. Blessings on the writing of your sermons... Lisl-young woman pastor in rural IL
Date: 23 May 2002
Time: 19:18:45
Lisl
And I have found many men emasculated by overemphasis on making sure we never use the term "man". Let's give our gender-sensitivity a rest and realize that very few people are purposely trying to keep anyone down.
Self-censorship is still censorship.
PaxChristi
Date: 24 May 2002
Time: 05:29:24
Michelle -Thanks for your comments and interpretation - I never intended to start a debate on God's gender but used "she" as an alternative to all the male language. Generally I keep it neutral or use he/she occassionally. I use humanity instead of mankind and no one even notices or takes offense. Nina in the North
Date: 24 May 2002
Time: 05:59:56
One poeter writes that we cannot "limit God" and that is very correct.
God is truely beyond our knowledge in any comprehenable way. In fact, God is so "all in all" that he has to limited himself, even in order to create. There would be no individuality is God were to be without limits. God's presence and being would overwhelm everything. Creation is the first self-sacrifice of God.
God further limits himself in choosing to be in relationship with humanity. He reveals himself as Father- Jesus's father and "Our Father..."
He does not give us permission to define or reshape him, he defines and reshapes us.
In the name of the Father, Son (+), and Holy Spirit. Amen
Date: 24 May 2002
Time: 07:01:01
How and why did a discussion of the relatively gender-neutral creation account of Gen. 1 (save for the pronouns used for God) devolve into a fruitless debate about he-she language for the Creator?
Just wondering ...
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 24 May 2002
Time: 07:14:29
What does the (+) mean in Father, Son(+), and Holy Spirit?
Date: 24 May 2002
Time: 07:28:11
I believe the (+) means that we make the sign of the cross. That is what it means when used as a rubric in the liturgies.
Michelle
Date: 24 May 2002
Time: 08:18:18
I want ot thank PC (the first entry) for pointing out the obvious. It's easy to argue creationism, get drawn into inclusive language debate, etc. But what was important in Gen 1 and 2, what was important to Gideon, what was important to Bartimaeus, is that God was there. What's important to the widow of the veteran, what's important to the parent whose children are growing up in these times of terror, is that God is here. Always was, always will be. Thanks PC Craig in Miami. (Where we know about strong winds too!)
Date: 24 May 2002
Time: 20:12:49
When the wind blows you to the Carolinas, I'll be here to greet you! (Could you bring some rain?)
My computer lost its motherboard, had to be rebuilt, so I've been off-line (or on a borrowed computer) for about two weeks. Good to be back.
Someone said the creation story was about why. I've always thought it was about who.
I'm thinking of having a summer series of OT sermons - my confirmation class made me aware of how illiterate we are about the Bible's big stories. Have any of you done this, and how did it work, and what should I be aware of? I'm thinking of adding drama in some cases, and maybe a first-person-in-costume event. Does anyone know where I could find good directions for liturgical dance or just simply movements of any kind that can be used in worship?
kbc in sc
Date: 25 May 2002
Time: 05:29:06
Lisl, Your post states, "i have found that in my congregation, as i have modelled the use of 'humankind' and 'humanity', the women in particular have felt more empowered and valued, and we have all been given the opportunity to honor the fullness of our createdness as human beings."
I think you sell yourself short, my younger sister. If the women of your congregation have felt empowered, it is most likely your empowered and empowering presence as an example, rather than your language, that has done it.
You say 'man' and 'mankind' reflect a paternalistic view of society. Yes, but only a dim reflection, or a distant echo. That dimness and distance are due not to folks deciding to change their jargon, but to many women (and some men too) speaking out, lifting up 'women's suffrage' and tearing down 'glass ceilings'. C.E.O.s won't bat an eye at passing a memo along encouraging 'inclusive' language in company reports. But ask them to give the "little ladies" a raise, and you'll have a fight on your hands. This is the part that takes work. Changes in common language usage usually follow rather than precede social changes. "Humankind' is being used more and noting it is worthwhile, but do not assume those who haven't yet changed their jargon don't already have new hearts. I started to say at the top, "I'll bet you the women feel empowered...". I don't bet. I am fighting against the insidious lottery being foisted upon my state. But I do still say sometimes, "I bet...". I don't worry too much that anybody takes that as support of gambling.
Here's another thought. You say rightly that 'man' and 'mankind' are linguistically correct; scientifically correct too, for identifying our species. In fact, I checked the dictionary and found that 'man' and 'human' define each other. In other words, look up 'man' and the first definition is 'human'; and vice versa. Here's an interesting note, though. Etymologically, they come from different roots. 'Human' we are told, comes from a Latin root 'homo', and relates to humus, the ground, or dirt. 'Man' comes from Old English and several N. European languages and relates to 'manas', the mind, and means to think. Human points to the fact that we used to be dirt. Genesis, chapter 2 concurs. Man points to the fact we have been gifted with the capacity for thought, sapience. We are Homo Sapiens, thinking dirt people. What quality will we focus on? Shall we constantly remind folks they are dirt? Does not 'human' hold down whereas 'man' lifts up? Have I not gone on long enough? I have! (This was typed smiling, not sulking. Hope that comes through. I'm more with than against you, sister. Keep up the good work. May God, who exceeds all labels, bless your ministry.) tom in TN(USA)
Date: 25 May 2002
Time: 08:53:38
Lots of interesting stuff here, after I posted the first post. God Sent me exploring...other Creation stories..Judea-Christian of course-ours...Native American, Hopi and Spider woman (which by the way there is 3 floods in theirs) and of Course Sumerian-Bablyonian Gilgamesh Epic...Plus , the Chinese one too... Every Religion has their own origin story... Which means all people acknowledge a 'creation' of sorts... One interesting thing about our creation story, the flood---I discovered by reading recently Noah's flood was not only flood... hmmm...Between verese 1 and 2 of Genesis- Lucifer's fall anf flood there, Some of my good Christian evangelical conservative people-have studied on this in the past long before I got here, LOL They have no problem believing dinosaurs existed...correllate that with Lucifer's Flood... However, if some of your southern Bible Belt people do watch TBN on Monday nights they have a creationist scientist on there, he can show Dinosaurs on the ARK... He says Dinosaurs were all vegetarians in EDEN , even T rex... just a thought for you to share with your conservative congregations who like TBN and Jan and Paul Crouch etc.... I am using this passage this sunday coupled with corinthians to end with.... My emphasis, yes Creation happen, but Man messed up... so intervention time...God was always there...even the period of apparent silence until John the Baptist... I am new preacher, so still learning, but I bet God really did talk to a few in that period of silence??? Any know there...But because of the Death and ressurection of Christ and His giving us a comforter...we can be a new creation...transformed for God's glory.... I like corinthians closing...I think of the show "the judge' about family court... He always ended with be good to each other.... I think I will end that way! BE GOOD TO EACH OTHER Ladypreacher in OHIO
Date: 25 May 2002
Time: 16:08:19
Ladypreacher in Ohio,
You said, "I am a new preacher, so still learning..." Hopefully, all we old preachers keep learning as well. Oh, that we never quit!
Michelle
Date: 25 May 2002
Time: 16:09:04
Tom in TN,
Thank you for that wonderful word study on human and man. Thinking dirt people... I love it!
Michelle
Date: 25 May 2002
Time: 16:20:24
kbc in sc - I've never done it, but I did do a Bible/book study on Ellsworth Kalas' "Old Testament Stories From the Backside." Might be a good resource for generating ideas/discussion.
Sally
Date: 25 May 2002
Time: 18:35:44
When we are into deep, hiding in the dark, feeling empty, we open the Bible to read that is where God lives too! Good news for us all!
Tom Sikes, Meridian MS FCC(DOC)