Date: 30 Dec 2001
Time: 15:14:20
Avery Brooks (who played Hawk on the old "Spencer" series and Commander Sisko on "Deep Space Nine") does a commercial-I don't remember who for-in which he defines "Epiphany." He goes through a list of experiences and after each one he says "That is an epiphany." (It seems to me like me might also say what isn't an Epiphany). While I don't agree with the definition of the ad writers, I thought it might make an interesting starting point, except I can't remember any of the examples. Does anyone else remember the commercial, or know where I could find a transcript or a summary of it?
Since this is a seasonal question not specifically related to a particular reading, I've posted this at several of the discussions pages for this day.
Blessings,
Lorinda in IA
Date: 01 Jan 2002
Time: 06:55:49
wonderful stuff. Thank you. Thanks especially to Jane in France for discribing the Christ Child as "wisdom incarnate".
Thanks also to Sharon for reminding us that the 2 places of exile, Egypt and Babylon are part of this great portrait of the birth of the prince of peace.
It is no accident that the magi are called Wise men. They were non jews who worshipped one god as lord of all and this god they addressed as "Lord Wisdom". Long before the greeks had the idea of logos it was a concept central to the beliefs of the Magi. It is not stretching the historical evidence to suggest that the magi indeed believed Jesus Christ to be "wisdom incarnate".
Yes, the magi were astrologers and not just astronomers and it was their faith that led them to the Christ Child and their faith that made them great healers. The Christ Child was endowed by the Magi with far more gifts than just gold, frankensense and myhr.
Manzel
Date: 01 Jan 2002
Time: 07:13:17
Yes, I am being unorthodox but check the historical evidence, look at the libraries that Alexander the Great founded after conquoring Persia, plundering and destroying their libraries, temples and advanced culture. You will find that democracy is one of the highly developed concepts that was part of the Magi's culture long before Alexander and the zenith of the Greek culture.
This is very significant for us as chirstians for several reasons. The concept of "Logos" is one of the reasons the gospel of John was branded as gnostic and almost not included in the cannon. It is popularly assumed that the gnostic writings came only after the new christian ideas had spread and merged with Greek philosophy. Please consider the posibility that we may be all wrong about this.
Put the pieces together for yourself and interpret for yourself. What if A. the Magi worshiped "Lord Wisdom" (the literal meaning of Aura Mazda"). B. The concept of logos was part of the Magi's faith. C. the Magi found and acknowledged the Christ Child. D. the divine spoke to them in dreams and warned them about Herod exactly the same way that Joseph was warned in a dream about Hearod. E. they were world renoun healers thee to bless the Christ Child who would become the greatest healer of all.
Manzel
Date: 01 Jan 2002
Time: 07:22:49
Yes, I know this sounds scandelous; that the faith of these magicians and astrologers was really on target. Jesus said "you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". Yes this is from the gospel of John and part of what has been branded as gnosticism. But what if much of what we have branded as gnosticism was a part of our Christian roots long before Christianity spread to the Greek and Roman cultures?
the Logos Incarnate! it is such a powerful thing. Isn't it worth further consideration. If the wise men believed this is the identity of Jesus whom they came to worship, then aren't they wise indeed? Manzel
Date: 01 Jan 2002
Time: 07:44:15
Be patient, I admit I am very excited about the Magi. I believe knowing more about the Magi will help us better appreciate Jesus. Who you will remember was often accused of being a magician. I have no doubt that Jesus healings were through the power of God and it is horrible when people of Jesus day insulted him by suggesting the power came through black magic.
In this day when we feel the need for peace and know we need to rid ourselves of prejudice, perhaps we should admit that popular christianity has been very prejudicial in its treatment of the Magi and its assumption that it knew what magic is about.
What if the heart of the Magi's faith was wisdom or the logos. Would it shock you to know that dedication to the truth or "word of God" was the heart of their faith? Their commitment to the one true god of goodness and wisdom shaped 3 basic values; dedication to good and true thougts, good and true words, and good and true actions. So why do christians so often treat the magi shabbily and with such prejudice?
Manzel
Date: 01 Jan 2002
Time: 07:53:49
Yes, here is more on that same theme. It is no accident that the number one place in the old testament to find prophecies about the messiah is in Isiah which revolves around the second exile the captivity in the back yard of the magi. Prophecies about Cyrus the great are written in Isaiah. He was the servant of Yahweh though he did not know Yahweh. After Cyrus the Great of Persia conquored Babylon he not only released the Israelite slaves but helped them get back to Israel and helped them to rebuild the temple. It is historically documented that Cyrus the Great instituted the Magi as official advisers for his government.
The Magi are a bigger part of the history and culture into which Jesus was born that christians usually admit.
Manzel
Date: 01 Jan 2002
Time: 08:03:58
I ment to say "the Magi are a bigger part of the history and culture than Christians admit".
It was significant to Matthew and to people of Jesus day to say that Jesus was a Nazorite. If we dig into this we find it was the Nazorean culture more than just the town that was important. Guess who shows up in this cultural milue? Yehp, the Magi. After the remnant of Isrealites returned from captivity in Babylon, all of them carried back cultural influences some more than others. Guess who was one of the groups especially big on retaining religious influences gained during captivity in the east? Yes, the Nazoreens. They had cultural values that were very similar to the Essenes. Manzel
Date: 01 Jan 2002
Time: 08:09:53
Nazorites and Essenes held many religious concepts that came from the cultural influence of the second captivity, especially the religion of the Magi which later became synonomous with Zoroastrianism. The concept of Satin is one such concept with became a very big part of the Jewish religion but was not part of the Jewish beliefs before the second exile. One such set of such evidence is the total lack of mention of any Satin in the stories of Moses. Manzel
Date: 03 Jan 2002
Time: 06:10:05
I find these contributions on the Magi helpful here at Epiphany, but what of this Ephesians text and Epiphany? I am wrestling with God's vision of the church as seen in Paul and our response to it... still wrestling however. jjinchassc
Date: 04 Jan 2002
Time: 11:49:33
jjinchassc,
I find this text a testimony to Paul's "epiphany," that the Gentiles are equals to the Jews in faith, cf. vs. 6- "fellow heirs," "same body," "sharers." It is uncanny how clear an understanding of his role Paul had- to the point where I think he knew his greatness in the faith. I wonder if any of us have sucha clear picture of what we are called to do to promote the living faith. AEA
Date: 05 Jan 2002
Time: 10:26:34
All the magi contributions might be helpful in relation to the Gospel text, but this is the Epistle text. :) Anyway, I'm thinking that this text is helpful in relating to the New Year, newness, and Wesley's covenant prayer. It speaks of new things... the revelation of the mystery of Jesus, the Gentiles being fellow heirs in the body of Jesus, & Paul being made new by God.
Judge Redd
Date: 05 Jan 2002
Time: 21:53:02
I'm going to focus in on this idea of the "Mystery" of God's purpose for the world (Gentiles - ta ethna- included as God's own)manifest in Jesus. To make things personal I may discuss the fact the Jesus is the answer to "mystery" of the longing of the human heart, the mystery of what God is really like, etc. Is that to much of a stretch on the idea of "mystery" or do you think it's workable? A.H. in Canada
3:6 that is, the Gentiles have become fellow heirs, members of the same body, and sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Using this verse as a point of departure, I am focusing on the idea that we are all adopted children; i.e., adopted by grace to be joint heirs with Christ. This is the first Sunday of the year, and I want to direct the congregation's thinking to our primary identity.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
3:6 that is, the Gentiles have become fellow heirs, members of the same body, and sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Using this verse as a point of departure, I am focusing on the idea that we are all adopted children; i.e., adopted by grace to be joint heirs with Christ. This is the first Sunday of the year, and I want to direct the congregation's thinking to our primary identity.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
3:6 that is, the Gentiles have become fellow heirs, members of the same body, and sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Using this verse as a point of departure, I am focusing on the idea that we are all adopted children; i.e., adopted by grace to be joint heirs with Christ. This is the first Sunday of the year, and I want to direct the congregation's thinking to our primary identity.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I love this passage but keep getting stuck on v.10, that the church is to make known the mystery to the rulers and authorities in the "heavenly places." It would be easier to preach with a period after authorities. What are some suggestions for dealing with those heavenly places?
re: "our primary identity," while salvation does begin very particularly with God's choosing of Abram, through Jesus it reaches out to embrace the world. Our primary identity as disciples of Jesus makes us brother or sister to every other person in the world!
re: "heavenly places," try taking seriously the world order alluded to in Ephesians 2:2 and 6:11,12, as well as in the present passage. It helps me to go back to the Genesis story and look at the serpent as a creature who had given itself into Satan's power, which was what God was referring to when God said, "'Because you have done this you are cursed...'" God did not curse the serpent, or us in Adam, God simply spoke the truth: "You are in Satan's power, you are cursed." In other words, in my opinion, the "heavenly realms" referred to are as real as the earthly people and institutions which serve them. RCS, Montreal
I see a connection between this passage and Isaiah: that the light of life has come into the world, and that the church's task is to be the beacon that shows that light to all nations.
I appreciate one commentator's note above (well, I appreciate them ALL, but in this case, this one) who suggests that it's possible for an earthly church to witness to a heavenly (perhaps, spiritual?) realm. If your theodicy holds that there is an evil intent on counteracting God's will, this is obvious; if not, just look at the world around you, and see who is holding sway in society anymore!
If, by bringing people to Christ through the ministry of the church, we can increase the number of people on the "inside," it will be a witness to those on the "outside"--both heavenly and earthly--of the power of God's grace and the gospel of Christ.
Seems like a pretty good way to start the new year, what?
Brian
I will be preaching on this text and the Isaiah text with the title, "What Do We Do with the Gift?" This will be in the context of the Wesleyan Covenant Service. I want to help the congregation focus on the gift we have received with the coming of the Savior---is it going to make a difference in our lives and in what ways? Or, do we want to exchange this gift, this savior for the way of life that we want? The covenant service is a way for recommitment. The ending song will be "This Is a Day for New Beginnings." RevDi
Good stuff here.
Last week, I focused on the priesthood of believers with Jesus the HIGH Priest. This week, Jesus is the Prophet revealing mysteries like that the "heavenly places" are more REAL that the stuff we think is so important. Then, on the 10th, Jesus is the King, coronated (anointed) at His baptism.
The Love of Christ to you all,
Bro Ken
God's plan to include the gentiles was not a twist in the original plan - but included in the plan from the beginning.....
This speaks to urban situations - with changing neighborhoods and the witness of the church in the midst of such change...
Was this God's plan for that neighborhood? From the beginning? If so - what is the church's response?
rj in pa
Date: 01 Jan 2003
Time: 00:43:53
I’m missing something here. Does anyone understand Paul's idea of "mystery" (God including the gentiles for salvation) as something the Jews missed? Is this really a mystery or an oversight? If it is an oversight, why didn’t Paul say, “It was in God’s plan in the beginning (which he does mention) but someone missed it. It is really a mystery? In Mark’s gospel there is the hidden idea of Jesus as the Messiah. My understanding of this is because of the misunderstanding of what kind of Messiah Jesus was. Is this sort of what Paul is referring to? Or is it something different? If I understand Paul he is speaking of gentiles being included in the salvation of God (fellow heirs, partakers of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel-- with the faithful of Israel and many others who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah). If I recall...Abraham was suppose to be a blessing to "all nations". And didn’t Israel's prophets speak of God also being active in the lives of other nations and not just in the life of Israel? And didn’t Jesus speak of times in Israel's history when God sent his prophets to outsiders who believed them instead of sending the prophets to people in Israel? Is Paul's idea of ‘mystery’ a word he uses when in actually it was revealed that “all nations” would be blessed, but that just didn't happen? The outsiders were kept outsiders. The idea of Israel’s ‘special privilege’ hid the gentiles from being seen as a part of God’s salvation history. God did not hide it. Maybe I am in left field. Can someone help me see the light? Thank you in advance for your help. Thanks, Revrand in Rossville, GA
Date: 01 Jan 2003
Time: 18:55:11
Revrand in Rossville, GA
My understanding of "mystery" as it applies here is not so much something the Jews "missed" as much as something that was not fully revealed. This term "mystery" is applied to many things in the NT including the incarnation, the death of Christ, the change that takes place at the resurrection, and other matters. It's quite key here during Epiphany as the issue is "revelation" - Christ revealed.
If the above text is NRSV, they clearly missed the mark on this passage horribly. The NASB translates Eph. 1:9-10, "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him..."
The mystery here is God's plan to sum up all things in Christ ... things in the heavens and things on the earth. Paul uses a significant term here that not only has the idea of leadership but also was often used of adding up a column of figures.
I suppose one might say, in a world where things do not "add up," it is God's purpose to one day bring all the things that are now confusing under right relationship to God through the work of Christ.
Once upon a time, theology was the "queen of the sciences," for all things found meaning in how they related to God. We have lost this in our modern times and we need to see it. As Ravi Zacharias puts it so well, the reason I pay my taxes is the same reason I take Holy Communion - worship gives meaning to every facet of life.
I hope I haven't added another "confusing thing" to this discussion.
JG in WI
Date: 02 Jan 2003
Time: 02:58:24
JG in WI,
Thank you for shedding some light on this subject for me. I think I have applied too much philosophical thinking to my theology. I think the word “mystery” is used to reveal what we cannot explain. “It’s a mystery.” we say. And yet, we try to explain heavenly things in earthly terms. We do the best we can. This is where faith comes in. As you have said, we trust God to add up what doesn’t add up. Yet, Paul does try and explain a revealed mystery that was given to Him that fully reveals God’s will concerning the Gentiles that wasn't seen before. Thanks for your help. I can now see some things that I missed. Revrand in Rossville, GA
Date: 02 Jan 2003
Time: 03:08:16
I found some thing that helped me understand "mystery" a little better. "A mystery is a truth, or fact, or purpose, which is hidden until it is revealed." The philosophical idea of mystery and the theological idea of mystery isn't the same, is it? Revrand in Rossville, GA
Date: 02 Jan 2003
Time: 03:12:05
One last thing I found that helps communicate what I was struggling with: "The mystery. It was in past ages hidden from men, but now revealed by the Spirit to apostles and prophets. Not the old Hebrew prophets, but the prophets in the church. Some of the Hebrew prophets might have had a glimpse of Gentile salvation, but they did not understand their own language as well as we do in the light of the gospel." Revrand in Rossville, GA
Date: 02 Jan 2003
Time: 07:39:29
Revrand in Rossville, GA
I think you've got it. The only thing I'd say is that there needs to be less emphasis on what the OT prophets didn't see. They did not see it because it had not yet been revealed. It's like the first grade child learning addition but the child does not "understand" multiplication. Why? Because the child does not "see" it? No... because it has not been revealed to the child yet. Now in this case, it is because the child's mind may not be ready to receive it. In the case of Israel, it was not revealed because the time of God's purpose in sending the Messiah had not yet arrived.
The Samaritan woman at the well got it so right. She DID get it. She said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." (John 4:25 NIV)
THIS is what Paul means. Messiah came, and this is what He explained to us. It used to be a mystery - unrevealed. Now, that which was hidden and a mystery is now revealed to all.
God bless
JG in WI
Date: 02 Jan 2003
Time: 16:20:27
JW in WI,
The Samaritan women reference really brings it home. Thanks again. Revrand in Rossville, GA
Date: 03 Jan 2003
Time: 22:54:33
V.10 talks about "the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places." Now, Paul says, even the heavenly beings (angels? Read Peterson's translation of this passage in "The Message"). In other words, the former unrevealed plan of God is being shouted out to "high heaven!" And that is what WE are now called to do. Ken in WV
Date: 6/25/2003
Time: 6:28:53 AM
we need to accept that we are a zero to spread the gospel to the gentiles as a hero.
Date: 1/2/2004
Time: 8:06:36 PM
Where is everybody? Well, here's my 2 cents worth. I'm titling my sermon "Now-Time Revelation." So many Christians get caught up in endless arguments over the interpretation of Revelation, when the most important issue for the church is NOT future prophecy fulfillment, but witnessing to the revelation given to us 2 millenia ago in the person of Jesus Christ, and the wonderful mystery that Paul speaks of here - that God has a place for every person who will accept the call of Christ.
Please pray for me, as my foot surgery is scheduled for Jan. 7. I probably won't be able to communicate with anyone online for 2-4 weeks, and I desire your prayers. God be with you all. Ken in WV.