Date: 6/6/2004
Time: 12:33:58 PM
YIKES!!!!!! (That's my only response for now-- I 'll give it more thought later, though!)
~Squeeze
Date: 6/6/2004
Time: 2:50:44 PM
There are many possibilities here. The first direction is to deal with judgment and forgiveness. However, I'm tempted to relate to the idea of listening to the wrong advice, especially when it is what we want to hear and appeals to our selfish wants. Sometimes the people who seem the most supportive and who encourage us to get what we want may lead us astray, whether governments or individuals. Society often seems to be promising us what we want but what may harm us or others or appeal to our greed. Also, we may trust those who say they have our own good in mind but can actually bring us harm. The question is how to put the good news in this. The grace afforded Ahab with his regret may do it. Any resonation with that? Preacher Lady
Date: 6/6/2004
Time: 6:49:19 PM
I hope this pericope doesn't precipitate a large number of Jezebel bashing.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 6/7/2004
Time: 7:20:33 AM
Ahab and Jezebel ruled Israel in the days of Elijah. After they cheated Naboth out of the vineyard that was his family inheritance, God sent the prophet to confront them with their sin.
Date: 6/7/2004
Time: 11:45:05 AM
I wonder if something interesting could be done contrasting this story with the gospel? Naboth and Jesus both get invited to banquets. Scoundrels falsely accuse Naboth. A sinner openly adores Christ. Jesus' religious quality is questioned but he turns the table on the self-righteous Pharissee. A coniving queen misuses power to turn the tables on a truly righteous citizen. Interesting contrasts but no message comes through yet. Any helpers out there? tom in TN(USA)
Date: 6/7/2004
Time: 3:38:06 PM
Tom in TN:
my first thought in using the two next to each other is that the evildoers and the righteous are not relegated to gender roles. But that may be too much outside the box of interpretation.
Saly in GA
Date: 6/8/2004
Time: 3:27:05 AM
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...
Do the "right" thing. God sees all and knows all. There is no hiding or pulling quick ones with God. Greed, materialism, does not pay. Poor buisiness ethics do not pay.
I am glad I don't live in a time or place where "dogs lick up the blood" of people in the streets!
Date: 6/8/2004
Time: 10:49:32 AM
"Have you found me, O My enemy?" And the king doesn't seem to be at all surprised at encountering this "troubler of Israel." The idea of being found is an essential part of the OT. Adam and Eve hide from God, still God finds them. When a small child is upset with Mom and Dad, the child will often hide (my preferred place was a closet- it just "happened" to be Mom's closet- I still remember the smell of shoe leather there)I would wait there until I was found.
Seward Hiltner, one of the founders of the pastoral care movement, reminds us that "Before the good news is good news, it is the bad news that all are sinners." Martin Luther preached a sermon about how God moves from being our enemy (God's holiness), to being our judge (God's righteousness), and finally to being our advocate (God's redemption in Christ)
Ask the people about a time when God found them.What were they doing? I know a couple who used to be into drugs, especially pot. The wife was a dealer. Their kids were invited to a Sunday School and the bus came by for their kids.When the kids came home after the first session, the kids started talking about God. And the parents threw away all the drugs in the house, and started going to church (they have kept on going ever since).Some of your own people may have similar stories. How did God come to them? As the holy one, the righteous one, or as the redeeming one? Or maybe, we should ask them how we think that God should come to "others" to the poor and powerless, to those who are different
early thoughts
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 6/8/2004
Time: 12:41:10 PM
When I read this story today, I couldn't help thinking about how like Ahab America has become. We look at the meager belongings of those in other countries, and wonder how we can add them to our stockpile of wealth. Corporate America would patent indigenous plants in South America, and call it their own, so that the natives owe the corporations for their own plants. In the CAFTA agreements we seek to drive local farmers out of business by allowing so-called free trade with America. Karla in Santa Cruz, CA
Date: 6/8/2004
Time: 1:42:20 PM
Think I may have seen this in Door magazine's "Truth is Stranger than Fiction" section. It's about someone claiming something they don't really own. Bikram Chodhury, who is a well-known yoga instructor (studios in California and New York)has applied for a copyright for some traditional yoga positions. This is strange, because those things he is seeking to copyright have been around for several thousands years. It would be like someone gaining a copyright for push-ups.
Apparently, Ahab is alive and well ( and living in L.A. and most other places)
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 6/8/2004
Time: 9:49:05 PM
bammamma
May be I am just naive, but What's wrong with Jezebel bashing?
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 6/9/2004
Time: 5:34:31 AM
Lots to explore here about our nationalism, a chance to look at our own history of taking possession of land and displacing or killing the people of First Nations. Marg
Date: 6/9/2004
Time: 6:20:46 AM
Coho asks "what's wrong with Jezebel-bashing?" - s/he posed it to bammama, but I wanted to chime in on my own... (I know, you didn't ask ME)
I say that nothing's particularly wrong with Jezebel-bashing provided others are bashed equally and you don't use Jezebel as the scapegoat for all evil. It's not like Ahab and Naboth didn't have a hand in this, too.
Same goes (philosophically, anyhow) with Eve-bashing. It's not like Adam didn't have a mind of his own (II Timothy aside). He made his own decision, a fact that is often ignored - he could have said, "No, I'm not gonna eat that fruit. It's forbidden."
Sally
Date: 6/9/2004
Time: 7:58:53 AM
Did Naboth have a hand in this? He was an innocent victim. Here we have a traditional pious man, who tried to fend of his hostile-takeover attempt by taking the command of God literally hoping to (Num. 36:7 "No inheritance in Israel is to pass from tribe to tribe, for every Israelite shall keep the tribal land inherited from his forefathers.") After that one attempt, he was murdered and didn't even know that it was coming to him. If he had known that his enemy followed no rules, he would have left his property to save his life!
Ahab had only a passive role in this. Yes, he was the one desired the vineyard. But didn't we all desire something? He played by the rules, and proposed to buy or trade the land, but Naboth turned it down. Yes, he acted like a baby over it to his wife, resent, sullen, and not eat. But didn't we all act that childish way from time to time, especially to our spouses?
Jezebel was the depiction of evil in this story. She was the one plotted the murderous plan, who forged the letters, who took it upon herself to get her husband what he wanted, "I will give you the vineyard of Naboth!" Could Ahab have stopped it? Did he go along with her plan? Our text didn't give much details, except to indicate that "She wrote the letters", "She sent them", "She wrote in the letters" (the content), the accomplices reported to her, and she told her husband that Naboth is dead.
If someone else should have been implicated in this story, it should be the elders and nobles. Jezebel's conspiracy didn't involved one person like the case of David murdering Uriah; it involved a group of respected leaders in the community. Yet, not even one was willing to stand up to call evil for what it is. Perhaps they hated Naboth too. He could even be a pain (assuming that he was acting all traditionally and piously since the text underscored his rigid stance on "ancestral inheritance" twice). But even if he was a sinful person, there is no reason to get rid of him in such conspiracy. The moral failure here is a societal failure, so that Jezebel understood it well and exploited it!
If I were to preach this passage to the congregation, I will identify us all as the elders and nobles, who are the gatekeepers of moral failure in the world. The Fundamentalists could be annoying, the Creationist could be annoying, the Pentecostals could be annoying, and even the TV Evangelists could be annoying, but does it mean that we should go along with the world and nail them?
If I were to preach this passage to the congregation, I would cover beyond the end of the lectionary text, to the end of the chapter. God's warning of judgments went to both Ahab and Jezebel. Jezebel for her active role; and Ahab, even though his role was passive in this one incident, his life pattern was one who "sold himself to do what was evil in the sight of the Lord".
However, ONLY AHAB REPENTED (v.27-29), and God have mercy on him. Interestingly, God didn't send Elijah to tell Ahab that He was relenting on him. So, even if we don't hear of the mercy of God or when our sins seems to go beyond any kind of redemption possible; perhaps we should just repent when we heard his harsh judgment anyway, even if we never could find peace again in our soul. Who knows, He might changed His mind. I suspected that when Ahab woke up in heaven, he would be so surprised. Perhaps he could find peace then with Naboth there to forgive and reconciled to him.
Lord God, help the Ahab in us to do the right things as elders and nobles of your people; help the Ahab is us to be willing to repent, even if it may look superficial, or when damage had already gone beyond repair, or when we live out the rest of our days awaiting your impending judgment.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 6/9/2004
Time: 10:23:51 AM
At the risk of stepping into US political territory on this one, the judgement is on Ahab, pure and simple. Jezebel says, "Let me take care of it." The implication is that Ahab knows, and Ahab goes along with it even if not ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING.
Here's the political part: Right now in the US, you have a lot of evasiveness/equivocating about the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and throughout the prisons in Iraq and Afganistan. Sure, there were some folks who directly participated. There were also a lot of people that "knew" about what was happening and likely turned their heads, justified the abuses in the name of intelligence or being stretched too thin, etc., or abetted a climate that showed disdain for human rights.
None of these things lead directly to those abuses, but it all is a part of the whole of what happened there.
Ahab did not kill Naboth . . . but then there's that bit of knowledge, that culpability present. That's what Ahab is judged for . . . and a terrible judgement it is.
And it is not just for one person, administration, party. That judgement is for all of us when we walk by, ignore, stall, accept various wrongs around us for the sake of a good end. To make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs, right?
I think that one thing this text tells all of us is along the order of Jesus' emphasis on our thoughts/interior life (remember that lusting after another person is the same as adultery?).
Enough rambling and enough politics,
Jason in GA
Date: 6/9/2004
Time: 2:26:04 PM
Jezebel was, to be sure, a notorious evil-doer and should be defined as such. What I hate are the leaps some folks like to take with her as an indication of the evilness of take-charge women.
yep - it's MY agenda and I'm sticking to it! ;-) I've just heard preachers aplenty use the Jezebel story as proof of why women shouldn't be in charge of stuff (I've been to too many campmeetings).
Sally
Date: 6/9/2004
Time: 2:44:59 PM
Why the women shouldn't be in-charge? It was because the wimpy men we had like Ahab here. <Laughing out loud>. Yup! Amen, sister, now I know what you meant, that we shouldn't be women-bashing, not necessarily Jezebel-bashing. Coho.
Date: 6/9/2004
Time: 5:28:49 PM
Check out the book "Miriam, Mary and Me" by Lois Wilson. I heard her speak at the first Re-Imagining event and she was wonderful. The book has 60 some stories from a feminist viewpoint and this is one of them. She brings out a little different view of Jezebel than the one that is usually heard. It's a great resource book to remind us that there is more than one way to look at things.
L in MN
Date: 6/10/2004
Time: 12:47:01 PM
As I study this lesson and the reading from Luke, I don't see the issue of forgiveness as the focus for the homily. There is no doubt that Galatians reminds us that "only by faith" are we saved, which is to suggest perhaps that Naboth (who held to the law) and the woman (reaching out in grace) have their lives fulfilled. I don't think we can be too judgmental about Naboth's faith for he lived in a time when the Gospel wasn't born and the only expression of God's mercy and protection was the Torah. In other words the Torah was for Naboth what the Gospel is for the woman. But forgiveness, no! I don't see how to relate the readings around that theme.
It does seem to me that there are human issues that arise in both stories: Ahab and Jezebel are "jealous" for the vineyard. They want it for themselves and they will do anything, no matter how illegal, to get it.
Simon is "jealous" for Jesus. He wanted him for himself. He did not invite the harlot into his home, though it was common for the anawim to stand around the open door and look in, especially when the wealthy were having banquet for the visiting rabbi! She was upstaging him and making him mad. He too wanted that "vineyard" only for himself, and yet the only one who irrigated, with her tears, was the sinful woman.
How does Jesus deal with Simon and what does he say to the woman? How does Elijah deal with Ahab and what does he say to him?
It seems to me that Ahab receives the consequences of the Law; and the woman receives the consequences of the power of grace. One is given life (forgiveness) and the other (death). Simon on the other hand just sort of disappears in the story. His willful, desire, to control the situation has absolutely no power.
As the Torah is life giving (initially) and as the Gospel is life-giving (for ever) how do we embrace our own lives.
How is our own jealousy confronted? How are brought to ourselves?
What is the nature of my sin? How do I come home after my estrangement.
tom in ga
Date: 6/11/2004
Time: 4:49:37 PM
Too long, but my intro to this passage with a little bit different spin on Jezebel.
There once was a princess who married a king in a foreign land. She was raised in the religious traditions of her homeland and tried to remain faithful in her new country, even attempting to influence her husband to convert. At her request, a house of worship was constructed in the king’s capital city and she raised her children in the faith of her ancestral land. She was a zealous missionary for her faith and stood firmly against the religion of her adopted land. She remained in the land of her husband for the rest of her life. For 22 years, her husband served as king until he died in battle. Her eldest son succeeded his father as king but reigned only two years until his death. The daughter of the Queen was married to a king in another country. After the death of the daughter’s husband, the daughter became the only ruling Queen in the entire history of that country. The Queen’s second son succeeded his older brother to the throne and ruled the land for 12 years. Many surrounding countries were at war with the Queen’s adopted land and within her country, religious tensions came to a head. Her son the king was assassinated and she knew her days were numbered. For 36 years she’d lived in her adopted homeland. She’d been a faithful wife, a devoted mother and a Queen mother all of those years and she had adhered to the faith of her homeland. She survived the death of her husband only to face the deaths of her two sons and the loss of her daughter to a foreign king. She was the only remaining member of her husband’s family and she knew she was next on the assassin’s list. So what do you suppose she did? Run away? No. Hide? No. She painted her eyes and adorned her head and boldly challenged her son’s assassin from the window, “Is it peace Zimri, murderer of your master?” He replied, “Who is on my side? Who?” Volunteering, two or three eunuchs looked out at him. He said, “Throw her down.” So they threw her to her death. Perhaps you’ve guessed the identity of the Queen. The princess came from Phoenicia. Her name is Jezebel and she became the wife of Ahab, the king of Israel. She is a major character in our passage today. But from the pieced-together perspective I’ve just related from facts in the biblical record, I hope we can look at her from a slightly different angle than the traditional view of Jezebel. I looked up ‘Jezebel’ in two dictionaries. One definition: “the wicked woman who married Ahab, king of Israel. Any woman regarded as shameless and wicked.” A Bible Dictionary: “A Phoenician princess who married King Ahab of Israel and incited him to sin.” In the New Testament book of Revelations, the name “Jezebel” is given to a false prophet who is inciting the faithful to do wicked things. You and I both know, if someone is called a “jezebel,” it’s not a compliment. Now, I’m not going to argue that we place a “white hat” on Jezebel’s head because she was faithful to her family and I certainly do not condone her actions in today’s passage. But I believe when we look at all of the tidbits about her, Jezebel is a bit more complex than the biblical historian wants to admit. The biblical writer who gathered the materials for 1 and 2 Kings shaped them according to several principles. All the kings of Israel (including Ahab) are bad. All the kings of Judah are good. Foreigners are bad unless they assist Yahweh’s people in some way and foreign religions are abominations. A Phoenician princess who worships Baal? Well, you can understand why “wicked” becomes a synonym for her name. One point: what would the "history" of Jezebel look like from the perspective of a Phoenician historian?
Deky, St. Pauls, NC
Date: 6/11/2004
Time: 10:00:58 PM
Deky, St Paul's NC,
Thanks!!!!!!
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 6/12/2004
Time: 11:35:30 AM
I hope someone checks this - it's late on a Saturday, but Deky's post reminded me of a wonderful little book I have that's part of a series of books, "Uppity Women." Mine is "Uppity Women of Ancient Times." by Vicki Leon (accent over the 'o') This quote picks up where our text does.
"This queen wasn't all take-take-take, however. When Ahab got a hankering for the vineyard enxt door, she didn't rest until she'd gotten it for him - by faking his seal on a document that led to the owner's convenient death by stoning. Her proselytizing, extravagant personality, and foreigner status made her the perfect Bad Example for the prophet Elijah. Elijah and JEzebel had countless run-ins: He beat her Baal boys ina public prophesy-off, claimed credit for a drought, and predicted a nasty end for her as a mongrel main course. (next week's text) To get some peace and quiet, Jezebel finally chased the old boy out of the country, where he died."
Reminds me (a little bit, anyhow) of a children's book - the tale of the three little pigs from the wolf's perspective. The wolf had a cold and he sneezed every time he tried to be neighborly and knocked those poorly-built houses down. The pigs were so scared, they had a heart attack and died. He couldn't see letting a perfectly good pork dinner go to waste so he ate them!
Two sides to EVERY story
Sally in GA
Date: 6/12/2004
Time: 11:37:18 AM
and no accounting for my taste in literature!!!!
-Sally
Date: 6/12/2004
Time: 7:44:17 PM
Lady Preacher I liked your "spin"...
I'm only beginning... my sermon title came easily... "With Neighbors like that ...who needs enemies?"
I'm reminded of how we neighbor, we have a new neighbor... he actually was concerned by the churches trees... some are dead... his sister is going to law school, made us sign a contract that WE were in charge of the trees if they should die... doesn't exactly bring hospitality to the neighborhood...
Still, I took over a pop on a hot day as we was on his roof assessing the gutters... etc.
He was receptive... I wonder if Ahab may have asked with a chip on his shoulder... as in, I'm the King so you WILL DO AS I REQUEST!
Sure would change MY attitude...
Blessings all, from a NIGHTOWL... trying to find a sermon on here... I wrote prayers... that are basically my thesis... (see Prayer section)...
Peace,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 6/12/2004
Time: 8:15:26 PM
Jason in GA
Thanks for the great analogy with the Iraqi prison... and ALL of our responsibility in the world.... I'm running with that... thanks again!
pulpitt in ND
Date: 6/12/2004
Time: 8:58:13 PM
I like the idea of naming sin sin as a theme for my sermon. I also think responsibility will be another point. The third point, perhaps divine knowledge--not sure at this time. I will, as some have said, portion out sin and responsibility to all parties then bring it home to ourselves. Where do we find ourselves in this story? The victim Naboth? Ahab? Jezzy? Nobles? How are we then to respond to an all-seeing God who acts with supreme judgement? Sorry, no appeals! Let us pray we all put efforts and proceedures in place that keep us accountable before "Elijah" comes to visit!! Just some thoughts. Rev. Alan in Oklahoma
Date: 6/13/2004
Time: 6:12:44 PM
To Sally:
Sorry I'm late in accolades for your story. I like your taste in literature!
Deky