Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 10:55:39
One Spirit.
ONe body, one LOrd. many gifts. for the common good.
What is the common good? If MLK were to preach this in his I have a dream format, what metaphiores would he use?
Date: 13 May 2002
Time: 11:41:58
In our church, some of the adults have not adjusted to the fact that some people come dressed in jeans. In fact, we recently had a 13-year-old boy volunteer to be liturgist. He did a wonderful job, but one particular woman sat in the pew and complained to her friends about the way he was dressed. He should wear dress slacks if he's going to be a liturgist! The fact is, the boy's family is low-income and probably cannot afford dress slacks for their son, so he can be liturgist. The complaint made me wonder, though -- where's the celebration? This kid, who's popular in school, could be doing so many other things at his age, but he surprised his parents by asking to be liturgist. He wanted to share his gifts. How easily conformity is called for and diversity is squelched! MTSOfan
Date: 13 May 2002
Time: 12:28:34
MTSOfan - How exciting to hear of this popular teen willing to share his gift. He has learned a maturity of discipleship that many older adults may have forgotten or never learned. But one person is not the whole congregation. Hopefully there were many others who offered their praise and thanks for his gift to them as worship leader.
It would be "heaven" if all the people in our congregations were operating from the same "spirit" but that is almost never true. Last week I talked about naked christian. They were people who try to live without love, forgiveness, gentleness, patience, kindness. a clothed Christian is one who has recieved power from on high, from the risen Christ to love their neighbor as their self, to love forgive, and practice the life of christ.jmj
Date: 13 May 2002
Time: 12:30:06
MTSOfan - How exciting to hear of this popular teen willing to share his gift. He has learned a maturity of discipleship that many older adults may have forgotten or never learned. But one person is not the whole congregation. Hopefully there were many others who offered their praise and thanks for his gift to them as worship leader.
It would be "heaven" if all the people in our congregations were operating from the same "spirit" but that is almost never true. Last week I talked about naked christian. They were people who try to live without love, forgiveness, gentleness, patience, kindness. a clothed Christian is one who has recieved power from on high, from the risen Christ to love their neighbor as their self, to love forgive, and practice the life of christ.jmj
Date: 13 May 2002
Time: 15:21:36
Point well taken, jmj. It is only a small faction. MTSOfan
Date: 14 May 2002
Time: 10:59:42
"12:3b No one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit." This really stood out to me. Does this say that unless we are empowered by the Holy Spirit we can not proclaim faith in Christ? Nancy-WI
Date: 14 May 2002
Time: 14:14:53
Nancy in WI That stood out to me also! Thinking the same thing... Holy Spirit has to dwell in you beofre you can really proclaim, because without it you can't understand... I.E. a lady ask how do you know there is a God? Faith that there is I say! She could not concieve that. Until she was saved... then she came back to me and said I understand. God blowing HIS breath on us... to empower... I think I am going to pass out breath mints to my congregation, hint hint bad Breath....not really... For the children's moment, I will blow my breath on them, and talk about how when i want my kitty off me Iblow on her... wind blowing things away, destroying, Rio Grande Ohio had a tornado which is near here so appropriate example, OH is in Tornado Season... I can use this...Nancy, I had a DCOM Board Interview, I passed get to stay here another year, the Joys of Intinerant circuit rider! MTSO FAN , NOT ME UNITED!!!!! LOL
Date: 14 May 2002
Time: 18:24:06
When I was in seminary, I served a small church that had 40 folks in worship on a good day. It was not a church that was loaded with talent or gifts. One good Friday we gathered for worship. Since we had few musical gifts, I designed a service where we read the passion story divided into shorter passages by hymns. Each passage of scripture was read by a different member. Only a few, members were strong readers, but I had plenty more who would take their turn if asked. Early in the day, two friends from seminary stopped by and I reluctantly invited them to the service. I have to admit that I was completely embarrassed by what they witnessed. Not only was the singing painful (my friends were musicians), most of the readers were able to take much of the passion out of the story. One young man was obviously given the spiritual gift of mispronounciation. If I was not familiar with the story I would have had no idea what he was reading. After the service I walked back to my friends to apologize for what they had witnessed. Before I could speak, my friend said "that was the best Good Friday service I have ever attended." Wondering if he was being sarcastic I asked him why. He said "That was completely authentic. No one came to show off their talents. This was a community a faith gathered to tell their sacred story in their own words. It was worship in its purest form, the church community giving of itself even when it is not their strength." I learned a lot that day about being the church for they were not Jew or Greek, slaves or free. They were the body of Christ, baptized in the same Spirit, sharing whatever gifts they brought.
Barry in KS
Date: 14 May 2002
Time: 19:00:57
I've been thinking of using this text to explore what it means to be led by the Holy Spirit. I am thinking about taking no notes whatever into the pulpit, but I will do my usual preparation of a manuscript. I have not yet convinced some of my parishioners to believe that the Holy Spirit works through study and writing out a sermon even though I do not take a manuscript into the pulpit. On Pentecost Sunday, I want to allow myself some extra freedom to let the spirit lead throughout the service. Hopefully, the organized left brain members and the laid back, fly-by-the-set-of-your-pants, right brain members will come together to proclaim as Lord through the same Spirit. TN Mack
Date: 15 May 2002
Time: 05:04:09
MTSO Fan,
When I blow at my kitty, he comes closer (for a better sniff?) I don't think it's because I have fish breath!
Barry in KS,
Great lesson! Your friend could just have easily poked a nose up in the air, but instead, noted the people of God rather than a staged performance. We don't set out to "give a bad performance," but it is good that we can forgive some slips because the spirit is there. Or should I have said, Spirit? I believe both.
Michelle
Date: 15 May 2002
Time: 05:40:50
*Question*
The spiritual gifts that Paul mentions sound very "spiritual". William Barclay suggests that the church should not overlook the carpenter, plumber, electrican, etc. He says that these gifts are also from God and can be used by him.
Do you agree with Barclay's interpretation? Are spiritual gifts simply those things that are given by God so that we may do the work He has planned for us (and possibly put food on the table too)?
Tim, Wadsworth OH
Date: 15 May 2002
Time: 07:45:32
Tim,
Although I rarely agree with Barclay, in this case, I absolutely do! Without the gifts of those you name, where would any church be? I have a very good friend (a former plumber) who is now an ordained pastor. And even before he became a pastor, no one knew him as "just" a plumber would have had any doubt of his faith.
Proclaiming Jesus' saving work is not limited to the gifts listed by St. Paul....in my opinion, St. Paul's list is not nearly complete! Even an electrician can proclaim God's love as he works.
Also, before St. Paul lists "gifts", he mentions "services" and "activities"....again, all from the one Lord/God. Which for us Trinitarians, is the same thing as saying "Holy Spirit." The services provided by people with the gifts for plumbing, electrical work, etc are just as vital as those we might view as "more spiritual."
"To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." 1 Cor. 12:7 Isn't the ability to repair a toilet, fix a broken power line, or build a house a gift that can be used for the common good?
Peace, VB in PA
Date: 15 May 2002
Time: 11:25:13
MTSO- Congratulations! Glad they are keeping you on board. I like the breath mint idea! The refreshing spirit. Maybe I will pass them out. If they can renew your mouth imagine what the spirit can do for the body! I am not preaching this week much only a few lines here and there, between sunday school and two baptisms, but the mints are a great idea. peace. Nancy
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 06:53:29
Tim,
Martin Luther writes of vocation, in which each of us in our daily work serves a calling given by God (he included the hangman). I believe this also could be an understanding of gifts of the spirit. We are all gifted differently, and some may never get up in front of anybody to proclaim a living faith vocally. Nevertheless, the lives they live and the service they give proclaim the gifts of God to all who have the gift of understanding.
Michelle
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 07:58:29
I did not submit the comment about the breath mints and the "kitty," although it's an interesting idea! I think the writer was trying to say something to me -- ? MTSOfan
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 08:22:12
The Desperate Preacher suggested a sermon on "Doing Church God's Way". That takes me to discussing the "doin that we do", "the church that we have" and "God's way". Obviously this passage, especially in it's context, goes there. Later in the day we have an election for deacon, so that will fit too. One of my maxim's is that every member should be in a ministry in which that person ministers, and also in a ministry in which they receive ministry. No cop-outs, saying that "I recieve so much doing all the things I do." Any thoughts about all that?
P.S. Maybe I am missing the obvious, but I have never figured out what MTSO stands for. Help me out here.
Thanks, Larry in Indy
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 09:59:01
Barry: even though I saw it coming (wink), your friend's words give me goosebumps! I'm serving a church just like that (and I've been out of seminary for awhile)! A perfect illustration for them.
I'd intended to have people share special gifts and experiences and only had one "taker." I'm going to have someone else read her beautiful experience that happened over Christmas.
I'm going to extend the reading to highlight the affirmation of individuals' gifts.
Sally in GA
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 10:14:22
Tim:
I seldom agree with Barclay, either, but he's "homey," so I read 'im from time to time. I've heard all kinds of discussion on abilities vs. talents vs. gifts. I'm inclined to think that talents used for the common good is not necessarily the same thing as a spiritual gift. I'm a bit of a renegade in this way, but here's the difference. Let's use your example of carpentry.
If I suddenly got the ability to do carpentry because God needed carpentry done, then yes, it would be a spiritual gift. And, believe me, it would be a miracle.
On the other hand, when I sing, I'm using a gift, but since I'm a musician, I don't see it as a spiritual gift. Instead it's a gift from God that I give back to God.
Where it gets cloudy is the question "At what point did the spirit give the gift/ability?" It's much like our other desperate preacher friend's conundrum about when the Spirit moves for preaching. Frankly, I'd rather the Spirit move ahead of time because most so-called Spirit-led preaching I've heard (when it stays in English) is pretty much the same thing over and over.
While it's fair to say that our abilities are from God and therefore able to be used spiritually, what Paul is speaking to here are those sudden, miraculous, never-could-do-it-and-now-I-can gifts. You'll also notice that the gifts he lists don't have much practical nature to them. Again, I admit to being a renegade about this. I hesitate to be too inclusive.
So, there's my 2 cents' worth - and I've gotta jet.
Sally
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 10:25:34
I believe the text says that if an ability manifests the truth that Christ is Lord it is a spiritual gift. Someone said once that if I have the ability to make pies, making pies is not a spiritual gift. If I make pies and take them to newcomers or visitors to the church, it may be a demonstration of the spiritual gift of hospitality. If I remember the context, he was trying to resist a movement to broaden the list of gifts, but the point remains - God gives the gifts so that we will be effective in our Christian life.
Larry in Indy
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 14:13:18
Larry: I seem to remember that, too, which is probably what I was remembering earlier. I hesitate to make the list of spiritual gifts too inclusive because then we could just name any of our abilities as "spiritual," whether or not God actually needed them at a particular point. Barclay might very well be trying to address the attitude Paul addresses later, in vv 14 ff, "...If the foot would say, 'Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,'..." It's to reassure people that all spiritual gifts are equal. This is importnat.
We're wrong, however, to just label whatever we can do as a spiritual gift. I sing well, but so do plenty of atheists.
sally
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 14:23:09
One more thought:
Not that God can't speak through atheists; in fact God has spoken to ME through atheists - especially musicians. It's just that, for example, singing is NOT a gift of the spirit. It's nice, and I'm glad God gave me the ability - and I use it for God when I can, but in comparison with the spiritual gift of, say "faith," it was faith (expressed in worship, prayer, and song) that sustained me after 9/11 and my father's illness and death soon after that, not my singing.
This is hard to articulate, isn't it? No wonder Paul writes in such a roundabout way!
sally in ga
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 20:22:57
*THANK YOU*
I appreciate all of your helpful and insightful comments to my question about spiritual gifts. Thanks!
Tim, Wadsworth Ohio
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 23:06:03
HEY NANCY of WI and MTSO Sorry I forgot to put my usual Ladypreacher of OH.... and MTSO is Methsco Seminary... which is the competion for Me... I go to UNITED in DAYTON LOL... Methsco is in Delaware Ohio above Columbus... Yes I am adding something to Breath mint idea---I was in Joanne Fabrics buying Red material for alter, I put Red all over on pentecost Sunday! and I got this Bubbles idea... childrens sermon- give em bubbles... blow bubbles, to illustrate God's Breath...and how bubble blow in wind.... and then give the congregation bubbles to blow during praise songs!! (it they choose) Aren't my people so blessed to have an IMMATURE preacher...I am wild in pulpit...I will do anything for GOD.... Ladypreacher in Ohio... and UNITED FAN (heehee)( too bad they dont have sports team, like army-navy LOL)
Date: 16 May 2002
Time: 23:07:45
HEY NANCY of WI and MTSO Sorry I forgot to put my usual Ladypreacher of OH.... and MTSO is Methsco Seminary... which is the competion for Me... I go to UNITED in DAYTON LOL... Methsco is in Delaware Ohio above Columbus... Yes I am adding something to Breath mint idea---I was in Joanne Fabrics buying Red material for alter, I put Red all over on pentecost Sunday! and I got this Bubbles idea... childrens sermon- give em bubbles... blow bubbles, to illustrate God's Breath...and how bubble blow in wind.... and then give the congregation bubbles to blow during praise songs!! (it they choose) Aren't my people so blessed to have an IMMATURE preacher...I am wild in pulpit...I will do anything for GOD.... Ladypreacher in Ohio... and UNITED FAN (heehee)( too bad they dont have sports team, like army-navy LOL)
Date: 17 May 2002
Time: 07:42:21
If the gift comes from God, are we not splitting hairs to say whether the gift comes from the Spirit? I like the pie illustration, but I'd like to turn it around. Any gift from God, whether that for making pies or singing, is a Spiritual gift when used by the inspiration of the Spirit. Is God not working through the hands and the hearts of the quilters, etc.
On the other hand, gifts given by God, by the Spirit, may be corrupted when used for foul purposes.
Michelle
PS: "alter" is a verb meaning "to change," altar is the correct spelling for the table. (I never noticed it either until a seminary professor pointed it out to me, and I don't want to use the wrong one.)
Date: 17 May 2002
Time: 12:48:36
Pretty much agree. Just to clarify, I think Michelle was saying any ability is a spiritual gift if used under the inspiration of the Spirit. Paul was making an important point in the distiction when he said that the manifestations of the Spirit are given for the common good. If my singing helps and inspires others in their work for the kingdom, it is a spiritual gift. If it makes their day better, but doesn't point them towards the truth that sets us free, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a spiritual gift. Spiritual gifts build up and unify the body.
That's the way I see it. There's a little saying I've heard that when we begin to call everything mission, then we have no sense of what our mission is. I think a similar thing could be said about spiritual gifts.
My thoughts, Larry in Indy
Date: 18 May 2002
Time: 03:35:45
MTSO = The Methodist Theological School in Ohio at Delaware, Ohio. MTSO fan, when did you graduate? I graduated from there in 1979. PH in OH
Date: 18 May 2002
Time: 05:35:53
LOL I guess put in about the breath mints. I am using plain old peppermints (individually wrapped both reg and sugar free) didn't read the post well. Nancy-WI
Date: 18 May 2002
Time: 15:48:05
PH in OH, you are right! I'm second-career; graduated in 1999. Guess we didn't cross paths! However, you were pretty early in the school's history, weren't you? MTSOfan
Date: 18 May 2002
Time: 21:25:02
Is anyone willing to honestly pray for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon their congregation and honestly EXPECT anything to happen? Or is it really just something we talk about happening 2000+ years ago. Do we really want the Holy Spirit showing up? What do we do when we finally discover that what we weren't taught in seminary is actually true? Nobody ever taught me in seminary about receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit. How about you?
As a pastor, I make the sad confession that for most of my ministry I prayed the payers in the book, I said the things that were expected to be said, but I never really expected anything from outside of this natural world to happen. What did happen, I felt, could be explained by scientific, medical, natural, or coincidental means. I can't say that I even believed in the baptism of the Spirit (or even knew about it), until one day when I was praying, I actually did a crazy thing, and asked the Holy Spirit to fill me. Then I was knocked off my pins, and equipped with gifts from the Spirit for the building up of the Body of Christ. Now, I can't pray without expecting God to act.
I encourage you, brothers and sisters, as one who can never pray dry and dusty words again, to be bold and ask in faith for the Lord to use you as his vessel, and for Holy Spirit to fill you with his gifts. Pray in all faith for the Holy Spirit to come upon your people, and believe that he will! If we don't believe our own prayers, why should God?
Pray that you and your people would be able to EXPERIENCE in your heart, not just your head, what it is to "drink of one Spirit."
Rev. Karl in Utah
Date: 18 May 2002
Time: 22:06:41
Hey people,
As a great way to begin exploring this experience of the Holy Spirit, check out the following resource:
"Surprised by the Spirit" / By: Jack Deere / Zondervan Pubishing House / (c) 1993